17 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

I just going to say I don't consider my opinion about the subject as an matter of fact or anything. But I still wonder about it and I would like to hear opinions.

 

When I first started playing DA2 I never payed much attention to it, but after looking at it more deeply, I started to wonder. Do the DA2 romances feel like rather unhealthy relationships? When you think about it, these companions that you can have relationships are absorbed by their personal issues to an point it borders obessession. These characters have so much personal drama that I wonder if an long lasting relationship with Hawke would ever work. Allow me to elaborate.

 

Merrill: She is so obssessed with fixing the Eluvian, that she turns to blood magic, she gets exiled and is even willing to die for it. An friendmance with her involves into you being supportive of such actions, while an rivalmance involves Hawke trying to put some sense into her constantly telling her it's just not worth the risk. But the thing is in an rivalmance, Merrill and Hawke relationship feels like an rather messy one. They often yell at each other and she even angrily kicks you out of her house. The only relationship path with Merrill were you can convince her to move on involves her being passive aggressive towards you half of the time.

 

Fenris: I don't blame him at all. In this case it's all about his past coming after him, rather then the other way around. But even so, his traumatic past as an slave left him in an pretty damaged state. Can that afford him to have an working relationship with someone that lasts? And even after Danarius dies, he still can't move on. He is still angry, and he still hates the mages.

 

Anders: This is probally the most problematic romance for obvious reasons. His merging with Justice almost ruined his person. He became an shadow of his former self and it's constantly absorbed by his plight for the mages. He aways says to Hawke that would be best not pursuing an relationship with him as the story progress saying it can't end well. And he lives up to that warning during the end game. And even if you continue his romance from there he tells you now you will have to endure the life of an fugitive with him because of what he did.

 

Isabela: This is probally one of the lightest romances because at the very least Isabela don't let her past or her personal issues haunt her or control her. And that actually allows an pretty easy going relationship with Hawke. But she still backstabs you during the Qunari invansion and only comes back for you in the last moment after dozens of civilians are killed because of her actions. But then again, I blame the Qunari more then I blame her. They were the ones that did the killing after all. But if you can forgive her for leaving you, there is nothing that stops you from having an nice relationship with her later on. 

 

Sebastian: This is the only romance I felt completely confortable with. He haves a lot of emotional baggage after his family is murdered, but that doesn't alter his character nor his relationship with F!Hawke. And it makes for an nice and average relationship all around. Thought I personally prefer his rivalmance since an chaste marriage sounds pretty dull.

 

So, tl'dr, do you guys consider the DA2 normal relationships or not? Feel free to disagree with me if you wish. I all want to hear is everyone's opinions about the subject.

[renfrees]

None of them are "normal" relationships, in traditional way. They are all damaged people in their own way. Beyond salvation or no - well, it depends on the player i'd say, but my belief is that none of them can be healed completely, they will remain somewhat damaged to the end of their days, despite of player's best efforts.

[Jaison1986]

None of them are "normal" relationships, in traditional way. They are all damaged people in their own way. Beyond salvation or no - well, it depends on the player i'd say, but my belief is that none of them can be healed completely, they will remain somewhat damaged to the end of their days, despite of player's best efforts.

 

It's not that I want to fix them (it's up to them to change their lifes or not). It's more about if it's worth pursuing an relationship with them or not. Being friends with them, or rivals with them is one thing. But it's entirely another to actually have an romantic entanglement with them. I just wonder if Hawke will be fine with these people. 

[renfrees]

It's not that I want to fix them (it's up to them to change their lifes or not). It's more about if it's worth pursuing an relationship with them or not. Being friends with them, or rivals with them is one thing. But it's entirely another to actually have an romantic entanglement with them. I just wonder if Hawke will be fine with these people. 

It's totally up to the player to answer this question.

[Jaison1986]

It's totally up to the player to answer this question.

 

That is... true. Wisely said. 

 

I still don't know if that's what I want for my Hawke. He sure has enough crazy to deal with in Kirkwall. But still, is nice to have some insight.

[caradoc2000]

Most Bioware romances tend to have emotional baggage - from angsty Carth in Kotor to the tsundere Silk Fox in Jade Empire to the wounded dove Aerie in Baldur's Gate. Besides Hawke has issues as well, after having to escape the Blight and losing a sibling (and mother later on) in the process.

[Jaison1986]

Most Bioware romances tend to have emotional baggage - from angsty Carth in Kotor to the tsundere Silk Fox in Jade Empire to the wounded dove Aerie in Baldur's Gate. Besides Hawke has issues as well, after having to escape the Blight and losing a sibling (and mother later on) in the process.

 

Yeah, I understand that. It's not so much about having emotional baggage, but more about the fact that this baggage keeps pinning these characters. Like in Origins. All romancable companions had their personal issues, but the difference was that the companions personal issues didn't controlled their lifes, or led them to have destructive or even irrational behaviours. Even Hawke is like that too. Hawke have personal issues, but Hawke can move on from them, and keep going with his/her life. When I look back, that quest with Varric called "friendly concern" makes a lot more sense now,

[caradoc2000]

You can help DA2 companions achieve closure - at least Fenris and Merrill.

[LadyMacTir]

While Alistair and Zevran didn't touch me as male LI in Origins, I find Fenris and Anders quite more interesting romances (maybe it's just my point of view...but I like the male romances more in DA2)

 

I friendmanced and rivalmanced them both (this works in only 2 playthroughs, just wait with Anders' "Questioning Beliefs Act 2" quest till you have completed "Alone" and Fenris' personal quest in Act 3. Then Anders' "QB Act 2" quest still leads to his famous kiss scene and you can initiate romance even after getting back together with Fenris, and Anders will move in immediately).

 

Maybe I liked the DA2 romances more because of this rivalmance option. In Origins, you had to have high approval to be able to romance someone, which lead to friendmances mostly. The rival path was more dramatic and sometimes led to an abusive or love-hate relationship (dependant on Hawke's own headcanon), and maybe this is why I loved rivalmance. You usually don't have the option to have such a relationship out in real life, which makes these crazy passionate relationships so tentative - it can hurt you, but it's only a game, not reality.

 

A friendmanced Fenris needs understanding, comfort and is very dependent, I think. Both - Hawke and Fenris - have lost a lot in their lifes, but it is Hawke who comforts Fenris mostly (after Bait and Switch, his Questioning Beliefs 2 quests, after killing Hadriana and back at the estate...) And this comfort is not about moving on.  It is about understanding that fear of the future the mentally tortured elf has. All he needs is security. Though he won't move in with Hawke, I think it is more out of fear to be hurt, not out of independency. Ah, and I guess Fenris himself admires a friendmanced Hawke so much because Hawke knows how to comfort other people - while Fenris can't talk about emotions, like after Leandra's death (where he seems so cold) and when he leaves after the night with Hawke. He fears his own emotions somehow, and the future. A friendmance feels very right here, it is beautiful...

 

The rivalmance felt for me like being Fenris' new master. He disagreed with me, blamed me for all in QB Act 3, but still stayed with me. Maybe because he needed a strong personality to lead him through this life? The relationship seemed abusive, and I had the impression that this was similar to what he had with Danarius (and when he obeyed his orders to kill the Fog Warriors, for example). It is a blind feeling. Maybe Fenris had naver seen a healthy friend-/relationship before, and only a friendmanced Hawke could show him a balanced love. But in case of a rivalmance, the elf will never be free, and it reminds me a little bit of masochism.

 

Anders friendmance was sweet indeed, and very harmonic. One can debate about the ending...but it was a little bit too sweet for me.

 

His rivalmance is very powerful and my favourite so far. He says "I don't know whether to kill you or to kiss you. You're everything I hate" - just this line alone is so strong!! Rivalmanced Anders and Hawke make the impression to desire each other passionately, have wild nights together, and the physical component of the relationship is very important here. It all begins with a crazy kiss, Anders mentions how passionate Hawke is at nights, and while contradicting him at day...and don't forget the makeout option after Merrill leaves in "Key to your heart".

 

But if Hawke sides with the templars, the "sexy times" alone aren't enough for Anders to stay with his love because of Justice. Even if he is persuaded to help the templars, he hints at suicide after confessing eternal love to Hawke. He isn't mentioned in the epilogue in this case. If you help the mages, Hawke and Anders will flee together, no matter what happens, no matter of rivalmance or friendmance. So to satisfy Justice in Anders' head/heart/body/... you need to agree on certain points of view. This is what makes this romance my favourite, because you must earn it in a sense. Like in real life. He is the one to break up after accepting Torpor's offer. He loves you with a passion, but is also able to leave - even if it will hurt him infinitely. There is something about him, when he still prefers his cause to you (break-up dialogue option after siding with the mages). THIS is real life. A man I respect, even if he may be wrong in his decisions.

 

PS: His dialogue after Leandra's death is golden.

[CuriousArtemis]

A friendmanced Fenris needs understanding, comfort and is very dependent, I think. Both - Hawke and Fenris - have lost a lot in their lifes, but it is Hawke who comforts Fenris mostly (after Bait and Switch, his Questioning Beliefs 2 quests, after killing Hadriana and back at the estate...) And this comfort is not about moving on.  It is about understanding that fear of the future the mentally tortured elf has. All he needs is security. Though he won't move in with Hawke, I think it is more out of fear to be hurt, not out of independency. Ah, and I guess Fenris himself admires a friendmanced Hawke so much because Hawke knows how to comfort other people - while Fenris can't talk about emotions, like after Leandra's death (where he seems so cold) and when he leaves after the night with Hawke. He fears his own emotions somehow, and the future. A friendmance feels very right here, it is beautiful...

 

The rivalmance felt for me like being Fenris' new master. He disagreed with me, blamed me for all in QB Act 3, but still stayed with me. Maybe because he needed a strong personality to lead him through this life? The relationship seemed abusive, and I had the impression that this was similar to what he had with Danarius (and when he obeyed his orders to kill the Fog Warriors, for example). It is a blind feeling. Maybe Fenris had naver seen a healthy friend-/relationship before, and only a friendmanced Hawke could show him a balanced love. But in case of a rivalmance, the elf will never be free, and it reminds me a little bit of masochism.

 

This is exactly how I feel about Fenris Well said!

[Hazegurl]

I just going to say I don't consider my opinion about the subject as an matter of fact or anything. But I still wonder about it and I would like to hear opinions.

 

When I first started playing DA2 I never payed much attention to it, but after looking at it more deeply, I started to wonder. Do the DA2 romances feel like rather unhealthy relationships? When you think about it, these companions that you can have relationships are absorbed by their personal issues to an point it borders obessession. These characters have so much personal drama that I wonder if an long lasting relationship with Hawke would ever work. Allow me to elaborate.

 

I totally agree. all the the companions have some sort of baggage in their lives that takes years to resolve and whether your friendmancing or rivalmancing it can all be one big mess.  But Hawke/player does have a choice on how to deal with them so it helps.

 

You can make Isabella pay for her crime by handing her over to the Qunari.

 

Anders is a crazy abomination. I say it's more of the fault of the Hawke who romances him rather than Anders himself for how badly everything turned out.  If you're gonna date a demon possessed person then you're asking for an unhealthy relationship.

 

I've never romanced Merrill but I always friend her when I'm a douchebag Hawke who doesn't care if she lives or dies and rival her as my nicer  cheeky Hawke. My reason is because the friendship path IMO seems more about condoning their unhealthy obsessions then helping them get over it. My funny Hawke is worried about her and doesn't want to see her dabble with demons over that mirror.

 

With Fenris, I love rivaling him more for the same reasons. Blaming and pointing fingers, and generalizing an entire group of people isn't going to help and is more detrimental than anything else. I felt that a friendmance with Fenris was all about  Hawke tucking his balls in and going "Yes Fenris" to everything that flew out of his mouth. Unless of course you agreed with him. My Templar supporter Hawke could friend Fenris quickly, but my fence sitter and mage supporter Hawkes had to struggle for those friend points (I took him everywhere). I felt rivalmancing challenged him more and made him question some of the things he said rather than have some "yes man" cosigning his unhealthy behavior all the time.

[Dutchess]

I disagree with your assessment of rivalmanced Fenris. He does not blame you for all in QB3. He even says: "bah, you are not the cause of my misery. Why am I upset with you?" I think it depends a lot on your head canon here and how you rival him. When you constantly choose the aggressive options and tell him he whines too much, then, yes, I would agree that it's not a very good relationship to be in. But you get rivalry points as well for being overly empathetic ("I'm not made of glass"), telling him Kirkwall is your home now in your first visit, and being a mage gets you free points as well. I really enjoyed the rivalmance with my mage Hawke. He was mostly nice (and sarcastic) with Fenris but disagreed with him on the matters of mages and magic, being a mage himself. It took longer to max rivalry in this scenario and I had to go for "Kirkwall is my home now" to not end up with too many frienship points in the beginning, but it felt great and certainly not toxic. I think Fenris may need someone who challenges his views and who he in turn can sometimes be angry and frustrated with. He's bottled up so much of his feelings, it's good to have someone who makes that come out.

[BronzTrooper]

Honestly, I can't help but think that the romances in DA2 are a bit shallow.

 

Everyone has either one or two really big problems that are obvious from the start (Merrill and Anders), while others have a ton of smaller problems that pop up as you go along (Isabela and Fenris).  Everyone just seems so... abnormal.  More-so than everyone in DA:O and ME.  While everyone in DA:O and ME has their problems, they tend to be problems you can relate with, or at least, understand.

 

Take Zevran and Isabela for example.  When romancing Zevran, you eventually find out about his mission before he came to Fereldan and learn that he's afraid that he'll make the same mistake again (something that plenty of people can relate to).  When romancing Isabela, It becomes apparent that she's just afraid of being loved, though her reasons aren't exactly clear until much later on.  Considering the type of man she had ended up married to (who was later killed by Zevran), I would've expected that she was mostly afraid of having her trust be betrayed, but that isn't the case.

 

The romances in DA:O are deeper than those in DA2, in my opinion.  Most of the romances in DA2 involve pretty much ignoring their problems, while those in DA:O work towards trying to resolve them.

[Corker]

When romancing Isabela, It becomes apparent that she's just afraid of being loved, though her reasons aren't exactly clear until much later on.  Considering the type of man she had ended up married to (who was later killed by Zevran), I would've expected that she was mostly afraid of having her trust be betrayed, but that isn't the case.

 
It's clear right after the bedroom scene, if you ask her.  She loved a man (not her husband) once, but he wanted monogamy and she did not.  It crushed him, and she feels badly for hurting him.  She's not afraid of being hurt - she's afraid of hurting others.
 
Isabela is certainly my favorite out of the four shipped-with-the-disc romances (I don't have Exiled Prince).  She's got baggage, but it's mortal-scale baggage.  There are elements of the three others that make me deeply uncomfortable, at least as I've played them or seen them in videos. (FWIW, Merrill is probably my favorite companion overall.  Love her, love the impact of some of her romance scenes, even, but do not love RPing the sort of Hawke who triggers said scenes.)

[Jaison1986]

 
It's clear right after the bedroom scene, if you ask her.  She loved a man (not her husband) once, but he wanted monogamy and she did not.  It crushed him, and she feels badly for hurting him.  She's not afraid of being hurt - she's afraid of hurting others.
 
Isabela is certainly my favorite out of the four shipped-with-the-disc romances (I don't have Exiled Prince).  She's got baggage, but it's mortal-scale baggage.  There are elements of the three others that make me deeply uncomfortable, at least as I've played them or seen them in videos. (FWIW, Merrill is probably my favorite companion overall.  Love her, love the impact of some of her romance scenes, even, but do not love RPing the sort of Hawke who triggers said scenes.)

 

I have to say I can't agree with you more. When it came to Isabela, it felt the least problematic relationship. And that was the reason I choose to romance her. She made mistakes, and even caused a lot of trouble, but she wouldn't have done it if she truly had a choice on the matter. Unlike characters like Anders and Merrill who go out of their way to find trouble. It's not that I want an perfect and cuddly relationship were everything goes smoothly all the time, but I also would like an relationship were chaos and never ending trouble is all that I should expect. 

 

Realistic speaking, I don't think I could come up with any resonable reasons to want an relationship with an blood mage that constantly dabbles in very dangerous and risky things and does not think over the consequences of her actions;

 

Or an possessed mage who is barely keeping himself together as the spirit inside him becomes more and more like an demon, and becomes more obessessed and extreme as years go by;

 

Fenris is.. alright, but we just disagree too much on our views for any beliavable relationship to happen. 

 

Like you said, I just don't feel comfortable having relationships with these people. I wish I was more eloquent to convey how I feel about this better, but alas, my speech skills are quite limited.

[Lucy Glitter]

I think Origins did it better in this sense. Your LI asked you questions about yourself. DA2 was all exposition and rah rah problems and all Hawke did was flirt and they were suddenly professing obsessions or love to which you saw none of it develop! Granted, it was rushed so I understand the why of it. Still disappointing.

 

I guess that's one of the reasons I like Fenris' rival romance. I mean, uh... despite his broody elf Gideon Emery sexiness, that is... his anger and attraction all fuel his confusion and denial of anything between him and Hawke and he gets time to think about it all, which makes it feel a bit more organic than the others. Can't remember Isabela's romance (I think it's like Morrigan's?) so I won't compare.

[BronzTrooper]

Now that Morrigan and Fenris have been mentioned in the same post...  I wonder what would happen if Morrigan and Fenris met each other.  I have a feeling it won't end well...  

[mopotter]

For me, DA2 was the first BioWare game I didn't care for any of the romances that much and felt all were rather disappointing.   

 

Yes, other game romances, had "issues", though Carth never ever bothered me because I agreed with his distrust issues.   The Dark Ritual with Alistair was the biggest problem for me, I did it a couple of times and then started marrying him off to Anora and either had Loghain join then went back to the circle or took off with Zev   or one of us died.  

 

But I never felt like I had had a one night stand until I romance Fenris, and I'd never felt like I was supporting a murderer until I had romance Anders.  I usually ended up killing him though one of my mages did support him.

 

I felt sorry for Merrill because she always looks a bit sad standing up on the staircase and Isabela just wasn't my type. 

 

My favorite romance was Aveline and Donnic.