176 réponses à ce sujet

[iqueefkief]

that was such an inappropriate kiss interrupt i'll never  get over it 

[ohmygodsy]

oh my god i have never seen that before

 

ughhHhHHhHHH god why do i play these games

[Pups_of_war_76]

Thane grinding his erection into femshep's pelvis. You're right, I guess Thane can be a tad unrestrained...

 

OOMPH

 

 

 

 

"I hear someone violating C-sec regulations! Must stop them quickly!" 

[Moussey]

in a hospital no less!

[Radahldo]

they ruined garrus in me2

 

they did not develop his character outside of a relation to shepard

people reaceted to this as garrus stagnating, for being in sattelite to shepards greatness

 

this cannot be a plotpoint though cause that is the nature of bioware games.. characters kneeling at the pcs feet, the world being shaped. it is not a meaningful thing, 

 

so, I think this shouldnt have ever been a thing...

 

they should've commited to having garrus main character in the way they did with liara

 

 

the anticipation people had for garrus in me2 was signifcant  because of the impact you had on him in me1...

 

why put garrus on the cover if hes not important? They opposed him against Saren, did all these things to make you think about him... and then.. callibrations??

[Pups_of_war_76]

I was thinking the other day about what could have been done with wrex

 

people don't complain about wrex's treatment like they do with a lot of other marginalized characters because his marginalization was, I guess, stealthier: in ME2 he had a role that people accepted because it seemed significant at the time (compared to the bad cameos kaidan and ashley had in the same game). But by the time ME3 ended he was reduced to this goofy, kindly uncle figure who was mostly comic relief. 

 

This character had little relation the wrex people liked in ME1. You can hear the voice-actor barely trying.

 

So at some point, something happened. 

 

The main thing, I think, is that he lost his edge.

His intense (but oddly resigned) melancholia and bitterness were interesting things about him in ME1, and they did away with that really abruptly. Then the apparent significance of his role was reduced because the whole arc with varied kogran responses to genophage (Wrex's societal reforms vs Okeer's desire to drive genophage into obsolesence via individual krogal excellence vs Wreyloc's desperate pursuit of a cure vs the general krogan population's grim defeatism) was all thrown out due to the Cure The Genophage plot that ME3 writers desperately wanted. 

 

It might have been better if Werx hadn't already become High King when Shepard meets him in ME2. 

Uniting the Clans would have been a huge struggle, and it would almost certainly have been more interesting if we'd seen the beginning of it rather than the tail end. 

Shepard's missions on Tuchanka could have contributed to Wrex's struggle somehow, and we could have had the opportunity to see him engage less aloofly with the realities of Tuchanka. 

It might also have forced them to do more with Wreav, since the static nature of that role in ME2 is what allowed them to be used so interchangeably. 

[Pups_of_war_76]

they ruined garrus in me2

 

they did not develop his character outside of a relation to shepard

people reaceted to this as garrus stagnating, for being in sattelite to shepards greatness

 

this cannot be a plotpoint though cause that is the nature of bioware games.. characters kneeling at the pcs feet, the world being shaped. it is not a meaningful thing, 

 

so, I think this shouldnt have ever been a thing...

 

they should've commited to having garrus main character in the way they did with liara

 

 

the anticipation people had for garrus in me2 was signifcant  because of the impact you had on him in me1...

 

why put garrus on the cover if hes not important? They opposed him against Saren, did all these things to make you think about him... and then.. callibrations??

 

I think this really highlights the different kinds of favoritism these characters were shown. 

 

liara was shown favoritism because at some point early in the process, someone (casey? probably casey) just semi-arbitrarily decided she should be a big deal and caused her to have all this development/maybe protected her from being kill-offable. 

 

garrus and tali were shown favoritism in response to strong fan demand, so their extreme popularity among the most valued parts of the target audience caused them to keep being squadmates, even when they faced the same logistical issues in ME3 that marginalized the rest of the ME2 squad.

 

Miranda is way harder to kill in ME2 than Tali is and has more potential to interface with the actual plot of ME3. The only reason Tali would be squadmate while Miranda is awkward cameo is because talimancers 

 

neither garrus or tali really have anything to ~do~ in ME3 after the missions on their respective planets are over, other than hang around and banter. 

 

So with Garrus and Tali I don't think there was the kind of long-ranged plan or impetus to construct an intricate character arc that was the case with liara, even though they're similarly privileged in attention and screen-time. 

 

Garrus and Tali were there to gratify powerful partisans within the fan-base, whereas liara was there to gratify a powerful partisan within the development hierarchy who caused writers to keep using her for important things. The latter naturally leads to stronger long-term writing because, in the first case, you've got a nerdguy hovering over the writers thinking "will the nerd fans of this character like this?" while in the latter case you've got a nerdguy hovering over the writers thinking "do I like this?" 

 

liara's character-arc was really strong, but the stuff she did in ME2/ME3 all predicated from her usage as the protagonist of Redemption (or what would have been the prologue of ME2), which was a story where Garrus might have made a more sensible protagonist in the first place. 

 

guilt-trip over Shepard's death and go to Omega on a quixotic quest to reclaim her corpse, becoming embroiled in shadowy conflicts between terrorist organizations and crime-lords? Frankly that sounds like more of  a garrus to do than a liara thing to do, particularly when garrus ended up doing Omega gang-wars anyway

[Radahldo]

I dont understand why they were ambiguous about him being archangel in the pre release.

To me, Thane, jack and samara are the most interesting...
Jack, you get this bsckstory of purgatory itself. The vibe initially is very sordid with the torture and stuff.. You have the optional convo where that prisoner begs you to take him with you.. When you tell him you're looking for jack, he is like lol nope.


And then you see her tearing apart the ship

So you get to see:

This new part of the mass effect world and See how others perceived mean
Jack.

The thing with the warden trying to capture you is dumb but everything is OK.


But... With garrus it's nothing like that

You hear the intercom mention archangel and aria tells you where he is.

And the mission itself, it's very bland..

Why hide is identity if you're notgonna flesh out that identity?
That is not how surprise reveals work... You have to give the viewer things to form an image in order for them to be shocked


It's also odd to me that they have garrus shot up by the plane at the end of the mission

If garrus has been fighting off three gangs working in concert to kill him, why explain his survival as 'he won't let them cross a choke point'
If when you meet garrus he has that messed up armour, it would indicate to really heavy fighting and is much more interesting an image to see...

[Radahldo]

Like, there's no reason to explain it as a choke point. That does make sense.
It seems like they do this to emphasise that he's a sniper.
Which is another thing that is not necessary.

[Radahldo]

Does not *

[Pups_of_war_76]

well, that's partially the sniper thing but also him suddenly being "The Tactician". 

 

That's how his dossier was presented, plus that's what you supposedly needed him on the ship for. Weapons room was closed until you recruited a tactical officer, even though the Normandy doesn't really need that role because, combat-wise, it is basically a giant fighter-plane and Joker handles all of that. 

 

Like he suddenly had a much more heavily-emphasized military background. 

No longer just "Some Cop, Garrus Vakarian", but "Inscrutable Veteran Badass, Garrus Vakarian". 

 

I've never been sure where that came from.

 

Like when he tells Shepard that war story where he got laid

when did this happen

what conflict was this? 

why were you there, garrus? 

 

Anyway, since you mentioned samara, how did you feel about the Ardat Yakshi retcons, where we go from ardats being super incredibly rare (Samara's daughters being the only ones to exist) to fairly commonplace? 

[Moussey]

I think I said a while ago somewhere that I should finally take the time to express why ME1 is my favorite out of the whole series even when the gameplay itself is pretty shitty. A large part of what I liked about it was the writing, not so much the plot but the overall world building and how the characters were made to compliment it as opposed to just bring their own thing. It was something that I felt was largely missing in the sequels.

All of the squad members in me1 had something interesting to say about the current state of galaxy and their involvements in them, even when they weren't they most favorable.

Kaidan, even when I thought he was the most safe character to write, had a personal story that gave us a larger context on humanity's aversion to biotics and on the recent biotic uprisings that have influenced some biotic doings like Grissom academy.

Ashley had some valuable input on the newness of humanity in the galactic government and how that contributes to the tensions between species; even when some of her comments came across as xenophobic they help to put into perspective the issues humans have in adapting and thriving in the galactic environment.

Garrus was actually pretty cool as he told us about the state of C-Sec and Citadel security in general while also expressing his own opinions and outlook on how best to protect others. Tali was in the same boat by giving us valuable info on the quarians and their relations with the Geth while also giving us her two cents on the matter and where her allegiances are.

Although it wasn't directly connected to the story at the time, Wrex's own recollections and interpretations on the Genophage did a great job of describing some of the ongoing tensions that still play a significant role in the galaxy (krogan/turian/salarian).

Liara was pretty interesting as she had the most direct connections to the ME1 plot and had some things to say about the asari hierarchy and her own struggles within then. I wish she talked a little more about asari involvement in galactic politics, since it seemed like beside her mother the asari run into very little problems with the other species.

Shepard with the different backgrounds was great too since it really grounded down how certain human struggles don't go away in the space age. Each of them do a great job of expressing Shep's humanity and makes her/him a sensible candidate as the first human spectre.

I was really excited after ME1 since it did a tremendous job of setting the stage for larger things to come. I wasn't too happy when ME2 derailed most of the good world building in place of personal angst from like a dozen characters but that's another thing for later

[Pups_of_war_76]

Well, I thought ME2 had plenty of that kind of thing

 

with Thane you get to learn about an entirely new species, of course, but you also learn more about the Hanar and the general status of non-Council-member species that fall under Council purview. The backstory of the Exodus both provides some potent parallels to the backstory of the Systems Alliance (more fractious species, devastated their own biosphere through excessive exploitation and overpopulation, in much the same way that Earth almost went in this setting) and gives us some insight on general Council Space politics. The fact that a minor race like the hanar had to act unilaterally to save the drell reflects poorly on the rest of Council Space, and is probably meant to reinforce the whole "the council is decadent and ponderous" thing that came up often in ME1. 

 

Jacob was well-placed to offer additional insight on the Alliance - the Corsairs sounded interesting and I'd have liked to hear more about them, plus he's a biotic, plus he's the first human squadmate we had who is young enough to have grown up entirely post-First-Contact and probably has a somewhat different cultural outlook because of it - this just didn't materialize. Partially because he's more taciturn than Kaidan, partially because he is neglected generally by the writers. 

 

Miranda is well-positioned to tell us all about Cerberus, as well as life in the rarified upper class - and this is very plutocratic setting, so that could have ended up being important - it's just that Cerberus is dumb so it doesn't matter. 

 

We learn more about the quarians and geth, obviously, through tali and legion's missions

 

We learn about krogan reactions to the genophage at greater length, plus being exposed more viscerally to various undercurrents that are important to understanding that conflict. The horror of the genophage, the horror of krogan civilization prior to the genophage, and the noble ~*~warrior legacy~*~ that - at least according the the krogan - underpins all of that. 

 

With Samara and Morinth you get a whole weird dimension added to the asari. It's still awkwardly rooted in the traditional gender roles of fantasy fiction - Morinth being a succubus, Samara being a chaste and severe yet alluring warrior-priestess, both common tropes/archetypes for token female presence in fantasy stories - but it was nice to have something actually deliver on the whole "asari are mysterious, mystical and have hidden power" idea after them being mostly a race of desk jockeys in ME1. 

 

I think both me1 and me2 were pretty strong in terms of worldbuilding via character interactions, it's just that the main plots progressed in such a way that this was all rendered irrelevant by an uninteresting cosmic conflict. Plus the gradual loss of player agency as far as Shepard's characterization and development go. 

[Moussey]

ME2 had its share of world building too, but my problem with it is that while there are a lot of great ideas and cultures that are brought out into the open, they are not well emphasized or integrated enough into the story for them to really matter in the larger scheme of things. And it's a shame because all of these characters could have a much stronger impact on the story if they were better connected to events around the galaxy.

 

I thought the ideas behind Thane's religion and personal history along with the ill fated history of his species were GREAT. Really well thought out and drafted; it seemed like all the pieces were there to piece together an interesting narrative on the treatment of drell/hanar/other minor council species and what their roles are in council/terminal space and so on. Part of what you said definitely. But really, the only concrete thing we got from his dialogue paths and loyalty missions is 1. Thane's religion allows him to be a good fighter and 2. Because the Drell are typecasted into being assassins. So the Drell are awesome assassins, what importance does this have in galactic politics? How will a bunch of independently operating assassins affect how the galaxy will fight in the upcoming reaper invasion? We get a small sense that Thane as a particularly powerful lone assassin has the ability to change things at a local level (Nassana in Illium) but aside from his recruitment mission it's not really brought up or emphasized again. Him being marked for death also detracts from his potential (and his species potential too really) to do anything substantial in the reaper war, since its only effectiveness is in creating some personal drama that gets resolves pretty quickly. by the time his whole character arc in me2 ended i was wishing there was more to his involvement in the galaxy than just being on his own or with Shep. that's mainly why i wanted the cure so bad. 

 

I thought Jacob would have been an awesome character if they actually pieced together his character more properly. His past history with the Alliance and the Corsairs could have been an awesome basis for him to express how and why the Alliance isn't capable of handling such a high risk mission against the Collectors, why he believes Cerberus is the only organization that can do it. We get bits in pieces here and there of how Jacob hates the Alliance red tape and believe Cerberus "gets the job done" but its all very vague? Is the Alliance somehow corrupted in a way that differs from Cerberus, or is Cerberus actually benevolent in a way the Alliance isn't? If the answer is there somewhere it's not well expressed at all. It doesn't help that it's established in ME3 that the Alliance and Cerberus are as black and white as it gets. It makes Jacob look more like a nut whose writing is as terrible as poorly expressed. 

 

Miranda had some great potential too to fill in as a supporter of Cerberus and why their methods are best. Miranda's character arc is actually very well thought out and articulated.The writers did a great job of connecting her upper class background to that of Cerberus and the excessive wealth which fuels their extensive scientific experiments. It's made apparent that her rational comes from her no nonsense perfectionist approach; how her actions at Cerberus stem from her personal want to establish her self worth and much less from her actually believing in Cerberus' mission. It's a nice touch how she realizes that at the end and bails out when she could at the end of ME2, moving her character arc forward. What's missing here I think is a greater awareness and acceptance of Cerberus' goals and intentions.. It seemed like she was suppose to be a representative of Cerberus of sorts whenever the Illusive Man wasn't around, i guess ironically her strong individuality from the start is what stands in the way of her really being a Cerberus "cheerleader" who represented the organization pretty well. Perhaps if her character arc started with her being farther into the Cerberus doctrine and ended with her moving out on a much more dramatic fashion, she could be a stronger character who also represents and reveals Cerberus' strong human and anti-alien prejudices if that makes any sense i probably rambled 

 

thats it for now ill go into more character analysis if anyone cares for it later

[Radahldo]

 

how does tali fit into this

[Pups_of_war_76]

think how many extra germs tali would be exposed to if 7 additional and simultaneous sex partners are added to her liaisons 

 

talimancers are so irresponsible 

[Moussey]

how is he sure what tali has underneath that suit though? she could be packing too and we'll never know

[Moussey]

I once read a joke fic once that quarian women have penises that suck up the sperm from inside the man. Has been my head canon ever since

[Masha Potato]

 

how does tali fit into this

why do you do this to us

[Masha Potato]

I once read a joke fic once that quarian women have penises that suck up the sperm from inside the man. Has been my head canon ever since

and they store it inside their buckets. their heads are actually nothing but a storage of stolen sperm

[Pups_of_war_76]

Archangel is still a silly alias

 

really transparent attempt to evoke batman and similar superheroes

 

why not take the opportunity to make up alien mythology and pull something more turian-y from that? 

[Pups_of_war_76]

[iqueefkief]

Well, I thought ME2 had plenty of that kind of thing

 

with Thane you get to learn about an entirely new species, of course, but you also learn more about the Hanar and the general status of non-Council-member species that fall under Council purview. The backstory of the Exodus both provides some potent parallels to the backstory of the Systems Alliance (more fractious species, devastated their own biosphere through excessive exploitation and overpopulation, in much the same way that Earth almost went in this setting) and gives us some insight on general Council Space politics. The fact that a minor race like the hanar had to act unilaterally to save the drell reflects poorly on the rest of Council Space, and is probably meant to reinforce the whole "the council is decadent and ponderous" thing that came up often in ME1. 

 

Jacob was well-placed to offer additional insight on the Alliance - the Corsairs sounded interesting and I'd have liked to hear more about them, plus he's a biotic, plus he's the first human squadmate we had who is young enough to have grown up entirely post-First-Contact and probably has a somewhat different cultural outlook because of it - this just didn't materialize. Partially because he's more taciturn than Kaidan, partially because he is neglected generally by the writers. 

 

Miranda is well-positioned to tell us all about Cerberus, as well as life in the rarified upper class - and this is very plutocratic setting, so that could have ended up being important - it's just that Cerberus is dumb so it doesn't matter. 

 

We learn more about the quarians and geth, obviously, through tali and legion's missions

 

We learn about krogan reactions to the genophage at greater length, plus being exposed more viscerally to various undercurrents that are important to understanding that conflict. The horror of the genophage, the horror of krogan civilization prior to the genophage, and the noble ~*~warrior legacy~*~ that - at least according the the krogan - underpins all of that. 

 

With Samara and Morinth you get a whole weird dimension added to the asari. It's still awkwardly rooted in the traditional gender roles of fantasy fiction - Morinth being a succubus, Samara being a chaste and severe yet alluring warrior-priestess, both common tropes/archetypes for token female presence in fantasy stories - but it was nice to have something actually deliver on the whole "asari are mysterious, mystical and have hidden power" idea after them being mostly a race of desk jockeys in ME1. 

 

I think both me1 and me2 were pretty strong in terms of worldbuilding via character interactions, it's just that the main plots progressed in such a way that this was all rendered irrelevant by an uninteresting cosmic conflict. Plus the gradual loss of player agency as far as Shepard's characterization and development go. 

i think me2 just wasn't as good at it because they didn't bother making the connections that you just did

 

the cerberus plot really ruined everything...they could have done things in a way where it would have been awesome and worked, but they didn't.

 

i mean, we shouldn't have just been dealing with cerberus the entire time -- that made the game feel too restricted and it largely felt cut off from the rest of the universe.  the terminus systems weren't interesting enough to make up for this because all we got was omega, which paled in comparison to the citadel.  it didn't have to be completely lackluster.  it felt weird that the council just let shepard go...there should have been more council interference idk.

 

and shepard being forcefully grounded in me3

 

lol come on

 

that game had the shakiest intro by far.  i had to hide my eyes through most of it because i was embarrassed.

[iqueefkief]

why do you do this to us

oh my god