5382 réponses à ce sujet

[Jukaga]

Not in game per-se, but in-universe. I was reading one of the Drew Karpyshyn ME novels and the amount of lore errors is staggering, not as bad as the Dietz one of course but for the guy who came up with most of the lore he got a lot of things wrong. He has Cerberus agents impersonating Quarians in their armor, except for the fact that our legs bend in different directions, how could this go wrong. He has Hendel's office filled with 'paperwork'. Really. in 2185. Sure, makes sense. In another scene he has a character firing 'hollow-point bullets', which would be fine if it was an antique firearm but it's a mass accelerator weapon like all the others. They keep piling on and on, and this is in one of the more highly regarded novels. Did he have a two week deadline or something? Even if that was the case it wouldn't excuse the huge lore errors, especially when written by one of the creators.

[Vazgen]

Not in game per-se, but in-universe. I was reading one of the Drew Karpyshyn ME novels and the amount of lore errors is staggering, not as bad as the Dietz one of course but for the guy who came up with most of the lore he got a lot of things wrong. He has Cerberus agents impersonating Quarians in their armor, except for the fact that our legs bend in different directions, how could this go wrong. He has Hendel's office filled with 'paperwork'. Really. in 2185. Sure, makes sense. In another scene he has a character firing 'hollow-point bullets', which would be fine if it was an antique firearm but it's a mass accelerator weapon like all the others. They keep piling on and on, and this is in one of the more highly regarded novels. Did he have a two week deadline or something? Even if that was the case it wouldn't excuse the huge lore errors, especially when written by one of the creators.

What novel is that? I don't remember reading anything like that. I remember reading about quarians in Mass Effect Ascension but IIRC Cerberus tricked quarians with quarian ships, not by standing face-to-face with them. Quarian ships with a correct password.

Paperwork can refer to the kind of a job, not literal paper. There are such examples in today's English as well, for example "cut to the chase" is used as "get to the point" but it originated from early days of movie-making when a chase scene was usually used in the end of a movie. Here are some other examples: Link

As for hollow-point bullets we had Shredder Ammo in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 1, as well as Anti-Personnel rounds with the following description:

Designed to shred flesh and other organic matter, these rounds are particularly effective against living targets. They are likely similar in construction to hollow point rounds.

[Valmar]

What novel is that? I don't remember reading anything like that. I remember reading about quarians in Mass Effect Ascension but IIRC Cerberus tricked quarians with quarian ships, not by standing face-to-face with them. Quarian ships with a correct password.

Paperwork can refer to the kind of a job, not literal paper. There are such examples in today's English as well, for example "cut to the chase" is used as "get to the point" but it originated from early days of movie-making when a chase scene was usually used in the end of a movie. Here are some other examples: Link

As for hollow-point bullets we had Shredder Ammo in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 1, as well as Anti-Personnel rounds with the following description:

Designed to shred flesh and other organic matter, these rounds are particularly effective against living targets. They are likely similar in construction to hollow point rounds.

 

While I agree with everything else I just wanted to point out that I do seem to remember there being a part in the novel where a human disguised themselves a quarian. Not that I see it as a big deal, honestly. I've seen people pull off really good cosplay where the legs don't stand out as being 'off' unless you really examine them so I can't imagine a human having too hard of a time blending in with quarians, long as they don't draw too much attention to themselves.

 

I will note however that I have read ungodly amounts of fanfiction so I might be remembering it wrong. I'm pretty good with the games lores but when it comes to remembering the novels... its kinda all a blur, honestly.

[Vazgen]

While I agree with everything else I just wanted to point out that I do seem to remember there being a part in the novel where a human disguised themselves a quarian. Not that I see it as a big deal, honestly. I've seen people pull off really good cosplay where the legs don't stand out as being 'off' unless you really examine them so I can't imagine a human having too hard of a time blending in with quarians, long as they don't draw too much attention to themselves.

 

I will note however that I have read ungodly amounts of fanfiction so I might be remembering it wrong. I'm pretty good with the games lores but when it comes to remembering the novels... its kinda all a blur, honestly.

I need to reread the novels it seems There are bound to be inconsistencies, I just don't remember such major occurrences. Quarian envirosuits are pretty complex and I doubt Cerberus can fool them with humans dressed in imitations of those suits. Real suits are programmed for quarian hosts, work with their physiology. Imitating a quarian for a human will be like imitating a rhino

First ME novel has omni-tools that people take out of their pockets, for example

[Valmar]

I need to reread the novels it seems There are bound to be inconsistencies, I just don't remember such major occurrences. Quarian envirosuits are pretty complex and I doubt Cerberus can fool them with humans dressed in imitations of those suits. Real suits are programmed for quarian hosts, work with their physiology. Imitating a quarian for a human will be like imitating a rhino

 

 

The suits programming doesn't seem relevant, imo. Afterall, these are humans we're talking about. They wouldn't NEED the suit to actually function. They just need it for appearances. Like Conrad Verner wearing a replica N7 armor. I doubt, if used as actual armor, its anything worthwhile. It's probably rubbish. It still LOOKS real, though. The only two giveaways quarians really have, at least the males, are the fingers and feet. Unless you're close to them you're not likely to notice the fingers and even then you can hide two digits.

 

As for the legs well I've seen cosplayers make outstanding Garrus and Tali outfits that proves to me that you CAN pull off the illusion of having raptor legs. Is it perfect? Of course not. Though I dont think they were ever meant to blend in for extended periods of time. Unless they draw attention to themselves I can buy them going unnoticed long enough to do whatever shady stuff they wanted to do. That's just me, though.

[RedCaesar97]

 

As for the legs well I've seen cosplayers make outstanding Garrus and Tali outfits that proves to me that you CAN pull off the illusion of having raptor legs. Is it perfect? Of course not. Though I dont think they were ever meant to blend in for extended periods of time. Unless they draw attention to themselves I can buy them going unnoticed long enough to do whatever shady stuff they wanted to do. That's just me, though.

 

Yeah, I think Cerberus agents dressing up in Quarian suits was just to fool the real Quarians just long enough (a few seconds) in order to get the jump on them in an ambush. Once the firefight started, all subterfuge was out the window.

[RedCaesar97]

Saw a Miranda/Henry Lawson outcome today I had never seen before. 

 

Instead of choosing the the Charm/Intimidate persuade options, I decided to go with the neutral option instead. Instead of convincing Henry Lawson to stand down, Miranda used her biotics to pull Oriana out of his grasp. A shocked Henry Lawson then shot Miranda, who then biotically pushed him threw the glass. Then she died in Shepard's arms because of a big bullet hole in her stomach.

 

Despite the tragic outcome, that may be my favorite outcome from the standoff. It kind of suits the game I think.

[voteDC]

Given the technology Cerberus has access to, I'm pretty sure they could break a few bones to make a person's legs bend the wrong way, especially with cybernetics.

People need to start thinking of no-prize explanations.

[themikefest]

Saw a Miranda/Henry Lawson outcome today I had never seen before. 

 

Instead of choosing the the Charm/Intimidate persuade options, I decided to go with the neutral option instead. Instead of convincing Henry Lawson to stand down, Miranda used her biotics to pull Oriana out of his grasp. A shocked Henry Lawson then shot Miranda, who then biotically pushed him threw the glass. Then she died in Shepard's arms because of a big bullet hole in her stomach.

 

Despite the tragic outcome, that may be my favorite outcome from the standoff. It kind of suits the game I think.

Having that outcome means that Miranda isn't able to tell Shepard about the tracer on Kai Leng because she dies very quickly

[Valmar]

Saw a Miranda/Henry Lawson outcome today I had never seen before. 

 

Instead of choosing the the Charm/Intimidate persuade options, I decided to go with the neutral option instead. Instead of convincing Henry Lawson to stand down, Miranda used her biotics to pull Oriana out of his grasp. A shocked Henry Lawson then shot Miranda, who then biotically pushed him threw the glass. Then she died in Shepard's arms because of a big bullet hole in her stomach.

 

Despite the tragic outcome, that may be my favorite outcome from the standoff. It kind of suits the game I think.

 

Frankly I don't get why Shepard can't just pull a Garrus and pop him in the head.

[themikefest]

Frankly I don't get why Shepard can't just pull a Garrus and pop him in the head.

I don't get why Shepard can't shoot Udina in the shoulder or arm to interrogate him

[Kynare]

What annoys me is that so much of Jack's character growth is entwined with the romance.

It's as if her story just stops if you are playing as a female Shepard and you have no way of advancing it.

The Jack romance is an awesome one and I like how you can blow the whole thing if you take her first offer of sex.

I discovered a conversation in ME3 that I'd never heard before today. The Doc and Adams were discussing if the Reapers were living beings or not.

 

That's what I like about Garrus. His character doesn't diminish even if you don't romance him. He's either a great lover, or a great friend. I got so annoyed with Jack when she kept snubbing my FemShep just because I was being nice to her. There was so much potential. *sniff* Even as just friends.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Yeah, I think Cerberus agents dressing up in Quarian suits was just to fool the real Quarians just long enough (a few seconds) in order to get the jump on them in an ambush. Once the firefight started, all subterfuge was out the window.

 

Nope. It says that Cerberus Soldiers were with Combat Suits and as soon as the Quarians opened the Airlock, they shot them. Here is the part of the book that mentions it:

 

 

The quarian shuttle was packed with ten highly trained Cerberus commandos, along with Golo, Grayson, and a pilot trained to fly the quarian modified vessel. Everyone on board was wearing a full combat hard-suit equipped with kinetic dampeners, and they each carried a heavy assault rifle.  

“Open the hailing channel” Golo instructed, and the Cerberus pilot did as he was told. Grayson was technically in charge of the mission, but for much of it he would be deferring to Golo and his greater understanding of the quarians.  

A few seconds later the radio crackled with the challenge of the quarian patrols. “You are entering a restricted area. Identify.”  

“This is the scout ship Cyniad, of the Idenna” Golo responded, “seeking permission to rejoin the Fleet.”  

“Verify authorization.”  

Grayson held his breath as Golo recited the code phrase. “My body travels to distant stars, but my soul never leaves the Fleet.”  

Several seconds passed before they got their response. “Idenna confirms your identity. Welcome back, Cyniad.”  

Golo flipped off the comm channel. “Bring us in nice and slow” he instructed the pilot. “We don't want to spook anyone.”  

Locating the Idenna amid the armada of ships was surprisingly simple. Every vessel in the Fleet transmitted a short-range homing signal on a unique frequency. As a scout ship, the Cyniad was preprogrammed with the Idenna's frequency, so that the vessel showed up as a green pixel on the nav screen, in contrast to the red of the other ships.  

As they drew close, Golo opened the comm channel again. “This is the Cyniad, requesting permission to dock with the Idenna.”  

There was a delay of several seconds before the radio crackled with, “This is the Idenna. Your request is granted. Head to docking bay seven. And the captain says it's good to have you back.”  

“It's good to be back” Golo replied. “Better send a security and quarantine team” he added, before clicking the comm channel closed.  

“A security team?” Grayson asked, suspicious.  

“Standard protocol” Golo replied. “If I didn't request one, they'd get suspicious.”  

“Will they be armed?”  

“Probably, but they won't be expecting any trouble. Your squad should be able to take them down without too much difficulty.” 

 Grayson felt his stomach clenching as they drifted into the docking bay. For the first time in several days he felt the sudden craving to dust up, but he pushed it aside by focusing on the mission.  

The three men in the cockpit were silent until they heard the docking clamps secure the ship in place.  

“Lock onto your target” Grayson instructed, and the pilot nodded. “But hold fire until my order.”  

Cerberus had made some additions to the Cyniad, including the addition of a small but powerful short-range laser. One well-placed shot could knock out the Idenna's tight-beam transmitter, killing the ship's external communications and preventing them from alerting the rest of the Fleet.  

The timing had to be perfect, though. The Idenna would still have internal communications, and as soon as the transmitter was knocked out the bridge would alert everyone on board. Grayson wanted to wait until the security team coming to meet them had been dealt with before that happened.  

“Alpha team” Grayson said into his combat helmet”™s transmitter, “you're going to have company when the airlock opens. Report in as soon as you take them out.”  

A few seconds later they heard several sharp bursts of gunfire coming from just outside the ship.  

“Enemy is down” the Alpha team leader replied. “No casualties on our end.”  

“Take out the transmitter” Grayson said, and the pilot fired the laser, shearing off the dish in a quick, clean cut. The shipboard alarms kicked in almost immediately.  

“Now the fun begins” Golo said, and behind his mask Grayson knew he was grinning.   

[Jukaga]

What novel is that? I don't remember reading anything like that. I remember reading about quarians in Mass Effect Ascension but IIRC Cerberus tricked quarians with quarian ships, not by standing face-to-face with them. Quarian ships with a correct password.

Paperwork can refer to the kind of a job, not literal paper. There are such examples in today's English as well, for example "cut to the chase" is used as "get to the point" but it originated from early days of movie-making when a chase scene was usually used in the end of a movie. Here are some other examples: Link

As for hollow-point bullets we had Shredder Ammo in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 1, as well as Anti-Personnel rounds with the following description:

Designed to shred flesh and other organic matter, these rounds are particularly effective against living targets. They are likely similar in construction to hollow point rounds.

 

It's in Ascension and the prose clearly describes that the disguised humans could pass as Quarians which is of course ludicrous and not  just for the legs. 3 fingers, not five, very curvy hips, just a very different appearance all around. As for the paperwork it talks about the stacks of actual paper piling up in his office because he puts off doing it all the time. I'll have to re-read the part about the hollow point rounds, but as I recall it wasn't using the term as a metaphor.
 

[Valmar]

It's in Ascension and the prose clearly describes that the disguised humans could pass as Quarians which is of course ludicrous and not  just for the legs. 3 fingers, not five, very curvy hips, just a very different appearance all around.

 

That isn't ludicrous at all. First the hips are a female trait, not something males would have to worry about. Second it'd be easy to give the illusion of raptor legs. Don't say its ludicrous when we have real-world examples of fans being able to pull off the look reasonably well. Third there are numerous ways to hide two fingers, especially when it isn't 'strange' to be wearing gloves as the environmental suit covers the entire body.

 

They're not saying that a human could go undercover for months on end without being detected. For a brief disguise it would work fine. This isn't Hitman where everyone wearing a certain outfit are part of a faction that know each other by heart and can spot a suspicious individual from a mile away.

[Jukaga]

I'm sorry, but Tali cosplayers look like Tali cosplayers. The legs are immediately obvious.

[Valmar]

I'm sorry, but Tali cosplayers look like Tali cosplayers. The legs are immediately obvious.

 

Not always. Also keep in the context that we, as fans, are more immediate to over-analyze all the details. For me the first thing I look at in a turian/quarian cosplay is the legs to see how well they pulled it off. Is it perfect? No, some are horrible. I have seen it done reasonably well though and only becomes obvious when inspected closely. A normal quarian just going about his day and not staring at everyones legs and analyzing every detail are not likely to immediately notice anything strange.

[voteDC]

Again I mention cybernetics.

If cerberus can bring Shepard back to life, I'm pretty sure that they can make human legs work like quarian ones.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Uh... I gotta ask if anyone read my previous post... As I said, I transcripted the last half of Chapter 23(IIRC?) of ME:Ascencion and it says plainly that Cerberus Folks were equiped with Combat Armor and Kinect Barriers. And as soon as the Quarians opened the ship to examine it, as part of the "Decontainment team" procedure, Cerberus fired on them, and disabled the sensor aboard the Idenna.

 

Edit: Or am I missing something? After that, Cerberus just gets past the Quarians by shooting them.

[Valmar]

Uh... I gotta ask if anyone read my previous post... As I said, I transcripted the last half of Chapter 23(IIRC?) of ME:Ascencion and it says plainly that Cerberus Folks were equiped with Combat Armor and Kinect Barriers. And as soon as the Quarians opened the ship to examine it, as part of the "Decontainment team" procedure, Cerberus fired on them, and disabled the sensor aboard the Idenna.

 

Edit: Or am I missing something? After that, Cerberus just gets past the Quarians by shooting them.

 

The argument wasn't really rather or not they did use the suits but instead whether or not they COULD pass, temporarily, as quarians. I say its perfectly fesible that someone could blend in for a short time if  they don't draw attention to themselves. Jukage says the quarians would notice instantly.

[Jukaga]

The argument wasn't really rather or not they did use the suits but instead whether or not they COULD pass, temporarily, as quarians. I say its perfectly fesible that someone could blend in for a short time if  they don't draw attention to themselves. Jukage says the quarians would notice instantly.

I think Cerberus' actions support my contention. Sure, it may have caused them to hesitate for a fraction of a second but there's no way they could pass even a cursory look, thus why they opened fire.

[RanetheViking]

The argument wasn't really rather or not they did use the suits but instead whether or not they COULD pass, temporarily, as quarians. I say its perfectly fesible that someone could blend in for a short time if  they don't draw attention to themselves. Jukage says the quarians would notice instantly.

Yeah for a short time I agree.

 

But wasn't there something about Quarians being adept at reading body language (except Tali lol), or perhaps it was other Quarian's body language. Because living in their suits full time they couldn't rely on facial gestures like, say, humans would.

Or I might be thinking of something I read in a FanFic somewhere.  lol.

Anyway. Carry on.

[Valmar]

I think Cerberus' actions support my contention. Sure, it may have caused them to hesitate for a fraction of a second but there's no way they could pass even a cursory look, thus why they opened fire.

 

Real-life examples disprove your assertion. If a regular fan in the real world can put together a convincing cosplay that successfully pulls off the illusion then it is absolutely foolish to assume that it is impossible for professionals in the Mass Effect Universe to pull it off with the REAL suits and materials.

 

Also, they didn't open fire because they saw through their quarian disguise. The Cerberus troops didn't wear a disguise. So of course they opened fire. Read MegaIllusiveMan's post, he includes the pages in question.

 

 

Yeah for a short time I agree.

 

But wasn't there something about Quarians being adept at reading body language (except Tali lol), or perhaps it was other Quarian's body language. Because living in their suits full time they couldn't rely on facial gestures like, say, humans would.

Or I might be thinking of something I read in a FanFic somewhere.  lol.

Anyway. Carry on.

 

It's from a fanfiction. That being said, its a reasonable assumption and I don't doubt its credibility. The scenario presented was never that they would be able to live amongst the quarians undetected, only that they could pass as a quarian long enough to perform some stealthy actions. Jukage is taking the stance that no attempt to fool a quarian would succeed because they will immediately notice they're not quarian due to the legs. I say they'd have to be Suitlock Holmes to make that deduction so quickly and its unreasonable think that they couldn't pass as quarian for a brief period of time, less they encounter a hyper-observant quarian or one who is a perv that actually examines everyone's legs closely. This isn't like a turian passing for a human, which is obviously going to be near impossible without a lot of tech.

 

Quarians wear their suits all the time, with visors you cannot even see into. The only significant difference in our body shapes, at least for males, is that our legs are shaped differently. Which is an illusion we humans can pull off, as evidence of real-world examples show. If some fan in their sparetime can piece together a convincing illusion of those legs with some superglue and foam don't tell me that Cerberus agents in the Mass Effect universe wouldn't be able to make a convincing disguise. With all respect to those cosplay fans but if THEY can do it then surely an organization as funded as Cerberus can pull it off.

 

That being said, this will likely be all I say on the matter since this is going too off-topic. It someone wants to think its IMPOSSIBLE to disguise a human as a quarian even for a moment, despite the real world evidence, thats a problem with them. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Aimi]

Real-life examples disprove your assertion. If a regular fan in the real world can put together a convincing cosplay that successfully pulls off the illusion then it is absolutely foolish to assume that it is impossible for professionals in the Mass Effect Universe to pull it off with the REAL suits and materials.

Yeah, those cosplayers really did fool all the real quarians at the cons.

[Jukaga]

Yeah, those cosplayers really did fool all the real quarians at the cons.

 

Seriously, I'm not here to bash cosplayers but the notion that they look anything else other than people wearing home made costumes is ludicrous.

 

None of them look convincingly real. The only one that does is the VA for Samara that dresses up and Asari legs bend the same way.