Be that as it may, criticizing implications and patterns within Bioware's works is not against the rules to my knowledge, and I will continue to do so where it remains topical to the given thread.
The only pattern is that most relationships end badly regardless of sexual orientation.
Given that any disagreeable position that any human takes on anything can be summed up as "because I don't agree with it," I fail to see your point.
I wasn't trying to make a point, I was asking a question
You're certainly welcome to have that opinion on the matter, but I don't see why everyone needs to share it. It's more than a little absurd that some people are taking such a strong issue about how certain people feel regarding the portrayal of same sex relationships for women in this franchise.
Because I actually read the book, and as a queer woman I thought the portrayal of this same sex relationship was well done and I don't judge the entirety of a relationship based on whether it ends in a Disney "happily ever after scenerio" . Nor do I think a "bad ending" should negate every positive portrayal created by the relationship.
Same goes for Leliana and the Warden.
The only pattern is that most relationships end badly regardless of sexual orientation.
And every single lesbian one does as well, whereas not all straight or male homosexual ones do. The fact that one party may have entered it with bad intentions does not change the fact that it existed. And if that doesn't satisfy you, refer to my revision of "lesbian love."
I wasn't trying to make a point, I was asking a question
Then yes, I dislike it because it continues a damaging and meaningless pattern when orientations of other relationships aren't held up to the same standards. Also, keep in mind Rhys/Evangeline.
The only example of a lesbian relationship is Celene/Briala, that relationship ended pretty well considering both are alive.
Branka was involved with Hespith, and Leliana was involved with Marjolaine. I don't see any reason to discard them. And Briala and Celene ended their relationship after the revelation of Celene being the culprit behind the murder of Briala's parents.
Then yes, I dislike it because it continues a damaging and meaningless pattern when orientations of other relationships aren't held up to the same standards. Also, keep in mind Rhys/Evangeline.
You mean like every other relationship in DA regardless of orientation?
Because I actually read the book, and as a queer woman I thought the portrayal of this same sex relationship was well done and I don't judge the entirety of a relationship based on whether it ends in a Disney "happily ever after scenerio" . Nor do I think a "bad ending" should negate every positive portrayal created by the relationship.
Same goes for Leliana and the Warden.
The problem is the pattern and not necessarily the relationship itself, especially when we consider, of the two post-DA2 novels released thus far, how each dominant relationship ended.
You mean like every other relationship in DA regardless of orientation?
Please read the post where I gave many counterexamples to this.
Undoubtedly, but that hardly means it's above criticism.
Given that any disagreeable position that any human takes on anything can be summed up as "because I don't agree with it," I fail to see your point.
Writing is often intuitive. You don't always choose what happens. To change it arbitrarily is often seen as an artistic betrayal to your characters and plot.
Also, keep in mind Rhys/Evangeline.
Why do you keep pointing this one out? I haven't read any of the books.
You mean like every other relationship in DA regardless of orientation?
Can I have Aveline and Donnic for 100, Alex?
You mean like every other relationship in DA regardless of orientation?
Except for the examples that disprove this, of course.
Can I have Aveline and Donnic for 100, Alex?
Which is why I said every other relationship
Please read the post where I gave many counterexamples to this.
I did read it, doesn't change what I said
Well I've read the book , and I didn't think the Dalish looked that stupid or bad.
I mean they trapped the demons , it's Michel , Celene and co who decided to release the demon for the Lolz and profit.
Can't say I like anyone in the book , all the characters are a bunch of morons for me.They all have a vision of how things should work and they just crush everything on their path.
Michel doesn't care about anything but his Chevalier thing , Gaspard is more or less the same exept the dude has ambition.
Celene has a vision of a civilized empire but if it means acting like a barbarian to achieve this , why not?
They have their game , and their code and the end justify the means as long as they follow their strange moral compass.
Briala ...I guess she isn't all that bad .But it's like she's looking for her identity and she had a vision for the elves.But when she's among Dalish or city elves , it just doesn't work.
The elves at Halamshiral made me sad ...
And not sure what to think of Felassan , he was supposed to be Dalish...but he try to avoid talking about his clan , he knows a lot about Arlathan , he'd rather let a creepy demon run free than save a Dalish clan.
I wonder if he's a very old elf who survived somehow.
Anyway there's something in the fade looking for the Eluvians , it could be Fen Harel avatar ...
If it's him , possible he's been manipulating elves , the same way Flemeth has been manipulating Humans for centuries ( giving dragon blood to Calenhad etc to awake dragons later...)
This entity seems stuck in the fade ...I guess we'll found out about it later , but I think the Eluvians will turn out to be a cursed gift.
Which is why I said every other relationship
If you say so
Because I actually read the book, and as a queer woman I thought the portrayal of this same sex relationship was well done and I don't judge the entirety of a relationship based on whether it ends in a Disney "happily ever after scenerio" . Nor do I think a "bad ending" should negate every positive portrayal created by the relationship.
Same goes for Leliana and the Warden.
One thing you can say is that the book doesn't close the door to the possibility of the pair ever getting back together. They did (and still do) truly love each other. I'm more sympathetic to Briala and if they were to get back together, personally would love to see Celene be the one asking for forgiveness...on her knees perhaps.
Obviously, this differs from Leliana/Marj as they had no chance of ever getting back together given the nature of their relationship (Marj was only using Leliana). I was concerned that the Briala/Celene relationship would be similar but was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't.
Writing is often intuitive. You don't always choose what happens. To change it arbitrarily is often seen as an artistic betrayal to your characters and plot.
Artistic Integrity! My god it just keeps getting better!
I'm singling you out because you're more articulate than Xil, not to antagonize you. And I have read all the way back, I just don't get how the option to kill the two dalish clans is such a big deal considering all the other mass death scenarios the warden can create/partake in/ignore.You're welcome to read the previous pages to peruse the posts where people have addressed their issues with the portrayals, since you're basically asking me to give you a synopsis on what's been said within the past few hours, when it would be easier to simply read those respective pages. I also find it ridiculous that you're singling me out when I've been agreeing with other people on the matter.
And every single lesbian one does as well, whereas not all straight or male homosexual ones do. The fact that one party may have entered it with bad intentions does not change the fact that it existed. And if that doesn't satisfy you, refer to my revision of "lesbian love."
Then yes, I dislike it because it continues a damaging and meaningless pattern when orientations of other relationships aren't held up to the same standards. Also, keep in mind Rhys/Evangeline.
Well I don't consider those to be relationships at all as the feelings were never mutual. Also Rhys/Evangeline only happened after Rhys's mother sacrificed herself to save Evangeline, so I wouldn't call that a happy ending.
In any case it's obvious neither of us will be convinced by the others point of view so I'm done discussing this tangent.
Which is why I said every other relationship
I did read it, doesn't change what I said
And those other relationships, fundamentally, play by different rules.
I'm singling you out because you're more articulate than Xil, not to antagonize you. And I have read all the way back, I just don't get how the option to kill the two dalish clans is such a big deal considering all the other mass death scenarios the warden can create/partake in/ignore.
Not to mention that DA2 can be taken as Self-defense since they attack you if you pick the wrong dialogue
One thing you can say is that the book doesn't close the door to the possibility of the pair ever getting back together. They did (and still do) truly love each other. I'm more sympathetic to Briala and if they were to get back together, personally would love to see Celene be the one asking for forgiveness...on her knees perhaps.
Obviously, this differs from Leliana/Marj as they had no chance of ever getting back together given the nature of their relationship (Marj was only using Leliana). I was concerned that the Briala/Celene relationship would be similar but was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't.
I agree that Celene will be the one doing the apology, and I do not certainly think it is out of the question for her to do so because she clearly loves Briala more then anything, and the book ending on her remorse reflects that. If they get back into a relationship it will be on the elfs terms.
Unfortunately I must return to work and abandon this conversation.... happy talking everyone.
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