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[Dean_the_Young]

I wish I could like this 100 times over

You could always like, unlike, and relike it a 100 times if you really wanted.

 

 

Mind you, it's not even that I don't think the health Celene-Briala relationship isn't a worthy topic of discussion- that's certainly fair game for analyzing the plot and romance. Was it believable? Was it handled reasonably? Sympathetically? What were the reasons the relationship ended, on what terms, and would those reasons have made any more or less sense had the gender relationship in question been reversed on one or both parties?

 

Personally, from the snippets I've read and the impressions I've gathered, it seems to have been handled very respectfully. The relationship doesn't run into troubles because of the genders involved, nor does it end tragically because of them. There appears to be no thematic moral that anyone who has actually read the books has picked up suggesting, in any way or shape or form, that the relationship was tragically doomed because it was lesbian. Everything I've read firmly establishes that it was tragically doomed because of political context, a context that would have persisted whether Briala was a man, or if Celene was a man, of if both were men, or even if Briala was a man who was also human who just happened to strongly identify with and prioritize the city elves.

 

Celene sacrifices the political stability of her kingdom because she wants to stay true to her single romantic relationship with a minority advocate, but will not put the minority advocacy above holding the kingdom together. Briala is a minority advocate who, after revelations and opportunity, will put her minority advocacy above holding the kingdom together. Both care for each other, but both will put their increasingly incompatible political priorities before romantic desires.

 

Which is a story theme that holds up regardless of gender swaps involved. That the lesbian aspect isn't the dominating or crucial aspect of the narrative or thematic focus is itself a sign of respectful acceptance of the validity of the lesbian relationship that it can fit in the context  of the tale being told. Before they are an allegory on same-sex relationships both Briala and Celene (and even Gaspard, over there) are plot devices for the focus of the story to be told, which is ultimately about the Orlais civil war.

 

The alternative to Briala and Celene's lesbian relationship being tragically doomed with the start of the three-way civil war isn't changing the civil war to give them a happy continuation- it would  be to remove the lesbian relationship itself. Whether it was replaced with a heterosexual relationship (Briala's narrative role can easily be filled by a male) or none at all, the civil war is going to be set up in preparation for DAI which is going to have free-wheeling between progressive Orlais, conservative Orlais, and City Elves. The type of relationship involved was never going to be raised above that, so either a lesbian relationship could get prominent billings in a respectful manner as a doomed relationship, or it could get much less billing if any at all.

 

 

...or so such an argument could have been focused on. But the last five pages were not about spoilers and handling of the lesbian relationship in the book.

[Divine Justinia V]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Milan92]

Psst, Dean, Its Empire - not Kingdom Other then that - great post!

[LobselVith8]

I wish I could like this 100 times over

I feel the same way about Xil being honest about how she felt about the depiction of same sex couples for women in this thread. I thought it was awesome she was willing to put herself out there and be frank about how she felt, even though some people retorted in a belligerent matter towards her because she was true to herself.

[Cobra's_back]

Jedi,

 

"By the end of the book I really didn't trust Felassan. But both her perspective on her final goodbye to him and his final scene made it seem like he was supposed to be a hero. And if he was teaching her to be like Fen'Harel, that more than anything seems like she'd be a terrible influence on the world."

 

I haven't yet read the book all the way and knew this was going to happen. I think David had planted the seed in all his books and in the Dragon Age game. What happens when people become desperate? All along the humans didn't see it but it was in front of them along. They didn't understand the elves could be dangerous and used blood magic easily. The city elves make prefect spies and sooner or later were going to say enough. The other perfect set-up was the fact that when they mated with humans the child would look human. They have the means to infiltrate there enemy's territory. They just needed a weapons.

 

I was always pro hardcore law enforcement for anyone who mistreated Elves. I believe the Elves can destroy the Orlesians. I don't care if they sack Orlais because it is diseased. I'm hoping boy Alistair is half Elf and finds a way to unite at least City Elves and Fereldens. It has not been confirmed yet. What we do know: AL was born the same year Marc was with the Elf warden mage. I'm hoping and it would wraps this up nicely for Ferelden. 

[LobselVith8]

I disagree with you about clan Virehn being one-dimensional Lobsel. They are villains yes, but they're relatively well fleshed out as well. The Orlesian noble Mainserai is one-dimensional, he kills elves because he finds it amusing/his mood is poor. Granted, he is part of a larger group of orlesian nobles that vary greatly in portrayal, but he himself is as deep as a puddle. We see no explanation of his character, no motivation or anything that argues why there's more to him than being a villain.

That's a cardboard villain.

I said the exact same thing when reading the warleader's dialogue. Especially the rather bland scenes with Michel that were intended to portray him as though he had escaped from a Rocky and Bulwinkle skit, rather than being a member of the Dalish clan. Because that was painful for me to read; I almost wish I could trade places with Xil at the time.

Although it was also strange to see shemlen used as though it was the derogatory slang term shem. Repeatedly.

As you can tell, I still strongly disagree that Clan Virnehn was well fleshed out.

Clan Virehn on the other hand, while not quite at the level of Gaspard, is given a thorough explanation. We see depiction of their society being more than that role, such as the afore mentioned camp-life scene. Mihiris isn't a terrible person she just loves a man and it is his death that causes her to swear revenge. His death being the result of him being in the wrong place at the wrong time and in no way being a fault of his own. Their keeper also makes a point to explain that not all clans are as clan Virehn, he pretty much outright confirms that he runs that clan much stricter than other clans do. That he's much less tolerant of city elves and humans.

While the main characters talk about the Dalish elves as though Clan Virnehn is representative of them all, which was so absurd it took me out of the story entirely, and we get multiple depictions of the Dalish in a one-note, villainous manner.

Why couldn't the characters be given some depth? Why couldn't Keeper Thelhen be more than a one-note racist? Why couldn't the warleader make nuanced arguments to Michel, instead of repeatedly saying 'shemlen' as though it was the slang term 'shem', and acting like an overall buffoon in every single interaction? It was incredibly lazy.

The keeper summoned Ishmael for the Eluvians, yes. Exactly why he chose to do so despite what we know of dalish is unknown. However, Ismhael demanded a choice of the dramatic kind and their keepers refused to comply. That's not only a testament to him but to their entire clan. When a demon asked them to compromise themselves, they refused.

Which was intertwined in interactions where they are portrayed as cartoons, rather than flawed, complex people. With the Keeper hitting the same one-note in all his portrayals, without a show of any complexity or depth beyond racism and belligerence, or the warleader's incessant depictions as a blundering buffoon who's existence is meant to be shown up for all his inferiority and lack of substance. There's no character there at all, and it was infuriating.

They're not cardboard villains. They actually have a degree of depth. Their character's actions are framed and in context, there's an explanation and a motivation. Felassan alludes to something like this happening just about half the book as well. He repeatedly points out that the dalish aren't as fantastic as they're percieved to be. So it's foreshadowed well in advance as well.

There's a stark difference between fantastic and asinine caricature.

They are villains and how they ended up is tragic (which everyone seems to agree with). I'm getting the impression, and I say this with the utmost respect, that you're more disappointed the Dalish weren't "good guys" (or at least not villains) in this book than how they're actually written.

You always have my respect, even though we often disagree.

I would say that's not the case, however. If the Keeper was given more substance, more insight into his actions and depth into who he was, why he came to his views, or the warleader intellectually sparred with Michel as an equal, with the two getting the better of the other in every exchange, I would feel differently.

Regardless, as you may recall I've mentioned for some time I wanted to see the dalish at their worst. I think I did get that here. This clan was in a sense a mirror of Orlesian society. Obsessed with abstract things and horribly racist. I'm satisfied with that.

Their worst? The Sabrae Clan going full Plot Stupid and trying to kill Merrill and Hawke in Act III if they aren't coddled wasn't sufficient enough?

Given how some posters here cherry pick the worst portrayals as the universal standard for the Dalish, that's not what I was hoping for.

[Divine Justinia V]

I feel the same way about Xil being honest about how she felt about the depiction of same sex couples for women in this thread. I thought it was awesome she was willing to put herself out there and be frank about how she felt, even though some people retorted in a belligerent matter towards her because she was true to herself.

Did she read TME?

[EmissaryofLies]

Jesus this place is seriously repulsive at times. 

[AresKeith]

Did she read TME?

 

Not that I know of

[Divine Justinia V]

Not that I know of

And this topic is about?

[LobselVith8]

Hopefully DA:I will now provide us with a clan that's decent and does not end up badly.

That's my hope as well. I've had my fill of one-dimensional Dalish caricatures.

[Cobra's_back]

I feel the same way about Xil being honest about how she felt about the depiction of same sex couples for women in this thread. I thought it was awesome she was willing to put herself out there and be frank about how she felt, even though some people retorted in a belligerent matter towards her because she was true to herself.

 

Sorry to hear this. I support a logical argument. I don't think her argument was a valid argument when it cames to David's work. I believe that more people would have supported her argument if she was talking about another writer. He is an action driven writer and many of his stories don't end well for lovers. Just read "The Stolen Throne" or "The Calling" for relationships that couldn't make it for some kind of barrier. Marc- Katriel, Loghain - Rowan, and Marc - Rowan. None of these romances worked over the long haul and this is just "The Stolen Throne".

[LobselVith8]

Did she read TME?

Xil addressed her apprehension about TME because of what she's learned about the story, as well as the previous depictions of same sex couples for women. I don't see why you or anyone else needs to denigrate her for having the audacity to express her views. It's really beneath you, Justinia.

[lil yonce]

I'm thinking about doing a little write-up on each main character in TME, at least for Celene and Gaspard. I think it facilitate some good discussion. I'll do them one at a time and start with Celene first.

 

Celene:  Good character, glad she got a book to herself, and I hope Weekes is writing her in Inquisition. Overall, she's a progressive, idealistic, and capable leader, but as to how I personally feel about her, I equal parts like and dislike Your Radiance.

 

The bad before the good:

 

First, we're told that she's good at the Game, and her past does show it, for example, she manipulated two noble sons for support, and most important, she had Briala's parents, and also her other servants, assassinated to protect her rise to Empress, but in the present against Gaspard, she had no shot at winning the Game. When she thought she had him at the opening ball scene, she didn't, when she thought she had an alliance with Remache, she didn't, she was laughed out of the Orlesian theater after Gaspard's stunt, her "elves-in-the-university" campaign was made a joke of too and Gaspard had a hand in that, she walked straight into Gaspard's political trap at Halamshiral, and then right into his ambush. She did not come across as a master Game player to me. I mean, Gaspard slayed her at the Game. It was no contest, and I was kind of disappointed in that. 

 

Second, she's a hypocrite and a liar. She justifies burning Hamalshiral as just part of the job, but has an emotional reaction to a suffering human village. I said this in another post: but this it, essentially: Celene says she will do whatever it takes, burn whatever village to keep her throne and protect the Empire, and won't feel too bad about it, but that's pretty much only when it comes to the elves, because when the crew rolls up on a butchered human village a page later, suffering because of her power struggle, she's contrite, shaken, and all, "I'm going to end Gaspard!"  

 

She lied to Briala for decades about Briala's parent's assassination. She lied to Briala about completely freeing the elves in Orlais after regaining Val Royeaux to get Briala on her side again in Eluvianland, and we know she lied because she admits it to Ser Michel. Briala had her pegged at the end IMO, when it came down to it, she probably wasn't going to do it, and she'd justify it in the same thread she justified Halamshiral: for the good of the Empire. She talked a good game, and I think she even starts to believe her own hype about this when she's desperate at the end of the book, but in truth, she wasn't about nothing, as they say in the streets, in this regard. If she promises a bunch of stuff to my Inquisitor, I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether she can come through or not.

 

On to the good things about Celene:

 

I liked that she actually ruled Orlais, she wasn't just a figurehead. She reads reports, meets with merchants, dignitaries, etc, keeps tabs on Chantry power, prompts the Divine to do something about the mages and templars, manages her nobles, has a hand in law-making, actively supports the arts and education, and so on. She was a hands on Empress and I liked that. She is progressive, I don't want to take that away from her with the last paragraph, she does promote racial equality and greater class parity, she wants commoners to gain admittance to university, she promotes freedom of speech and free thought among the writers guild, she wants to stabilize relations with Ferelden, she wants Orlais to be famous for its culture and not its military conquests, she just promised a lot at once to Briala, and everyone knew she couldn't come through with that, even she did.

 

In the end, I'd support her keeping the throne.

[Divine Justinia V]

Xil addressed her apprehension about TME because of what she's learned about the story, as well as the previous depictions of same sex couples for women. I don't see why you or anyone else needs to denigrate her for having the audacity to express her views. It's really beneath you, Justinia.

I came in here for the same reason after reading TME. You judge parts of a book that you haven't read and expect it to be looked at as a valid argument? And as Dean also said, the past 5 pages haven't even been about the actual topic or about their romance in the book.

[LobselVith8]

I came in here for the same reason after reading TME. You judge parts of a book that you haven't read and expect it to be looked at as a valid argument? And as Dean also said, the past 5 pages haven't even been about the actual topic or about their romance in the book.

Xil addressed the reasons behind her apprehension over TME, due to how the franchise depicted same sex relationships for women so far, and what she's heard about Briala and Celene.

She's a Dragon Age fan, and I doubt it was easy for her to be so frank about an issue that mattered to her. I doubt it's any easier for her in real life than it is here in the forums, and I wish people here treated her with at least a modicum of civility for it.

It's easy to gloss over what she said and belittle her, but I don't see the point. I wish people listened to why she was frustrated about it, rather than finding reasons to tear her down.

[Divine Justinia V]

Omg lol how am I belittling her? Because I think the past 5 pages are nonsensical in regards to the topic?

Like honestly I'm not even about to read your post because you're missing the entire point and I've got zero patience for that

[Sir JK]

As you can tell, I still strongly disagree that Clan Virnehn was well fleshed out.
 
 Why couldn't the characters be given some depth? Why couldn't Keeper Thelhen be more than a one-note racist? Why couldn't the warleader make nuanced arguments to Michel, instead of repeatedly saying 'shemlen' as though it was the slang term 'shem', and acting like an overall buffoon in every single interaction? It was incredibly lazy.

 There's a stark difference between fantastic and asinine caricature.

You always have my respect, even though we often disagree.

Their worst? The Sabrae Clan going full Plot Stupid and trying to kill Merrill and Hawke in Act III if they aren't coddled wasn't sufficient enough?

Given how some posters here cherry pick the worst portrayals as the universal standard for the Dalish, that's not what I was hoping for.

 

Post cropped by me (I'm responding to it all instead of paragraph by paragraph because that's not really a good way to argue).

 

It's true that it's not a very nuanced depiction of the dalish, only Celene, Gaspard and Briala got that. As you say, there is a stark difference between fantastic and caricature. This was neither. It falls somewhere between. Not bad writing, but not stellar either. It was a depiction that served their role in the story, but it was not cardboard villain level. Cardboard villains don't even this amount of depth. I mentioned Mainserai and you mentioned Decimus, both are examples because their actions have no frame. These elves had.

 

That's not saying you have to like their depiction, you don't. But just because one finds the portrayal dislikable does not mean it's poorly written or lacking depth. Nor does a likeable portrayal mean it's good writing. This depiction is not high literature, no. But it's a few levels above cardboard villain.

 

It's your last paragraph that was what I aimed for in my first post. It sounds as if you wanted the book to prove those of us who emphasize the flaws of the dalish to be proven wrong. It's the same in your comment of how you wanted the keeper and the warleader to be depicted.

Have you noticed that you wanted the warleader to have qualities reserved for affable villains (in prime spotlight, even) and the keeper an explanation or even an apology why he's like this? But what is so wrong with one warleader being proud to the point of arrogance and one keeper being consumed by racism? (rethorical questions). Had they been human noone would have batted an eyelash at their portrayal.

And perhaps more importantly... why is it that the book have to prove us who view the dalish as flawed wrong?

 

This ties in with the comment about Sabrae. No, I do not think Sabrae is the worst of the elves. While they did turn on Merril. Much of their portrayal in DA2 gave them high praise. Marethari knows about Tevinter magical lore, and she's tolerant and welcoming (except to Merrill). When the elves interact with humans they're mostly victims. Ilen is perfectly willing to trade (rather remarkable since Hawke is only barely allowed into the camp at all). Da2 lacks in execution, but even then then sabrae is culturally shown in a largely positive light. At worst they simply don't have confidence in you.

Whatever faults they have, it's not something reinforced by their culture. Here it is. Which is why it's the worst of the Dalish.

 

If you want to see the dalish from their best next then I am all for it. A balanced picture is what I want. The bad and the good.

 

Regardless. I understand you did not like this portrayal. You do not have to. If you were to say that this is a -unfair- portrayal I would not argue against that. It's just not just of the cardboard villain variety. It's not on Gaspard's or Celene's level either. But there's a whole scale inbetween those two datapoints.

Modifié par Sir JK, 13 avril 2014 - 06:31 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The funny thins is, I actually spent a fair amount of time wondering how Celene and Briala's relationship would turn out. Partly because I was a little morbidly curious to see how Xil would react to whatever it was. To be honest, the book kinda kept me guessing until the end. Not that I thought they necessarily needed a happy ending because it was made clear even from preview that their divided loyalties would always make it difficult if not impossible for them.

 

Wanting a Celene and Briala's relationship to succeed based exclusively on the fact that they are a lesbian relationship always struck me as kind of shallow because it ignores all the actual details and merits and troubles of that or any other relationship.

 

But you know what? That's all fine because I can understand why someone would want better representation of a group they identify with.

 

What always baffled me about Xil in this regard is how she expected Bioware to give her what she wants with Celene and Briala and also with Orlais and the elves.

 

She's always made it clear that she really wants to bring Orlais to it's knees and have it's power permanently destroyed so the elves can rise again. Celene is the Empress of that nation, whether she's with Briala or not, she can't have a happy ending with her nation and people brought low.

 

She also said she hates the concept of the book because the characters are mostly Orlesian nobles. Well yeah. That's just what Empress Celene is. And she always has been. If one hates the premise of a character to begin with, why care about their relationship?

 

Even the part of the book where Briala and Celene were united in their desire to bring the elves into a better future was based on both of them rejecting the Dalish. They both concluded that the Dalish elves were not Bria's people and it was the elves of Orlais who were.

[LobselVith8]

It's your last paragraph that was what I aimed for in my first post. It sounds as if you wanted the book to prove those of us who emphasize the flaws of the dalish to be proven wrong. It's the same in your comment of how you wanted the keeper and the warleader to be depicted.

It's not about proving anyone wrong, because Gaider already addressed all the clans are different, and that didn't stop some people from cherry picking the worst examples to paint the entirety of the Dalish as awful. It's how one-note the Keeper and the warleader come across. Gaspard and Celene have their shortcomings, but they are far more than their imperfections, while the main Dalish characters seem to consist of nothing but their flaws. The warleader's confrontations with Michel are so over the top they seem like a parody to me.

Have you noticed that you wanted the warleader to have qualities reserved for affable villains (in prime spotlight, even) and the keeper an explanation or even an apology why he's like this? But what is so wrong with one warleader being proud to the point of arrogance and one keeper being consumed by racism? (rethorical questions). Had they been human noone would have batted an eyelash at their portrayal.

The lack of depth is the problem. I've had my fill of simplistic villains in Dragon Age II, and the worst examples of the Dalish are typically at the forefront. I wanted there to be more to Clan Virnehn than what was provided, and it impacted my reading of TME.

And perhaps more importantly... why is it that the book have to prove us who view the dalish as flawed wrong?

I don't think anyone doubts that the Dalish have flaws, but some of us want a little more than characters who have no substance or depth to them. Truth be told, you're correct to say I didn't like the portrayals.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I wasn't a fan of the Keeper or the warleader's portrayal but that in and of itself wasn't what bothered me about them. I have no problem believing there are Keepers or Clans than think like this. What bothered me was unlike the evil or flawed human characters, there didn't seem to be enough of an indicator that "their kind" could also be better. There were no really positive examples of the Dalish in the story.

 

Briala's perspective on and agenda for elves changes dramatically based on her experiences with this one clan. But the irony is, had it been another clan, her initial hope for them to work with Celene might well have worked. But instead she adopts the attitude that the Dalish in general are like the cruel and uncaring clan she met.

[Sir JK]

I wanted there to be more to Clan Virnehn than what was provided, and it impacted my reading of TME.
Truth be told, you're correct to say I didn't like the portrayals.

 

This I can sympathize with. I'd be terribly disappointed if all templars became the Red Templars and only serve as antagonists too... no matter how well written it was.

 

I hope the next clan we'll see will be much more to your tastes

[Mr.House]

That's my hope as well. I've had my fill of one-dimensional Dalish caricatures.

Why? The ancient elves where hypocritical dicks, the Dalish seem to be no different then what they are trying to emulate. We already have a pack of elves who are showen in more positive light and deserve better, the Dalish are just Tevinter with pointy ears, though much stupider.

[Mr.House]

Also wanting a relationship to be successful because they are a lesbian couple and you damn the whole book on it is shallow. I bet you if this was a straight couple no one would bat a eyelash, but they are lesbians so it's bad and Bioware should feel bad.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wasn't a fan of the Keeper or the warleader's portrayal but that in and of itself wasn't what bothered me about them. I have no problem believing there are Keepers or Clans than think like this. What bothered me was unlike the evil or flawed human characters, there didn't seem to be enough of an indicator that "their kind" could also be better. There were no really positive examples of the Dalish in the story.

 

Briala's perspective on and agenda for elves changes dramatically based on her experiences with this one clan. But the irony is, had it been another clan, her initial hope for them to work with Celene might well have worked. But instead she adopts the attitude that the Dalish in general are like the cruel and uncaring clan she met.

 

Seems like a good character flaw of over-correction to me. Celene erred in assuming Dalish racial identity politics included pan-elven identity politics- possibly a shot across the bow at various parts of the fandom that there is more to the elves than 'those that are currently oppressed' and 'those that are free and true', as if the two were ends of a single identity spectrum. Briala errs in letting personal experience lead her to believing the city elves will be on their own without any help from the Dalish due to assuming them all to be cruel and uncaring. Both are flawed- there will be more benevolent with Dalish with kinder views towards the city elves, but Dalish culture is an exclusionary identity politic ('real elves'), not a pan-racial identity politic ('all elves').

 

I don't recall anyone saying that the narrative supports or encourages readers to believe that Briala is right in her views, even if the conclusion (that the City Elves are on their own, and shouldn't rely on or expect significant Dalish support) if probably correct in the context of Orlais.