528 réponses à ce sujet

[EmissaryofLies]

Why? The ancient elves where hypocritical dicks, the Dalish seem to be no different then what they are trying to emulate. We already have a pack of elves who are showen in more positive light and deserve better, the Dalish are just Tevinter with pointy ears, though much stupider.

 

Also wanting a relationship to be successful because they are a lesbian couple and you damn the whole book on it is shallow. I bet you if this was a straight couple no one would bat a eyelash, but they are lesbians so it's bad and Bioware should feel bad.

 

I don't think I've understood more clearly than now, what Lob and Xil have been talking about. 

[spirosz]

Paging Xil from Accounting.  

[Hellion Rex]

I don't think I've understood more clearly than now, what Lob and Xil have been talking about.

Like x1000. Cause I'm out of likes for today.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oi vey... if it isn't going to stick to the book in question, make a separate thread for it or something.

[stuffystuffs]

 

Personally, from the snippets I've read and the impressions I've gathered, it seems to have been handled very respectfully. The relationship doesn't run into troubles because of the genders involved, nor does it end tragically because of them. 

 

 

Their genders weren't really even brought up, beyond Gaspard joking that his manhood is the wrong way to woo Celene or something to that effect (and Briala is easier on the eyes than he is).

 

Michel expresses some disgust over the fact that Briala is an elf, but then he has his own personal issues with human/elf relations

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Seems like a good character flaw of over-correction to me. Celene erred in assuming Dalish racial identity politics included pan-elven identity politics- possibly a shot across the bow at various parts of the fandom that there is more to the elves than 'those that are currently oppressed' and 'those that are free and true', as if the two were ends of a single identity spectrum. Briala errs in letting personal experience lead her to believing the city elves will be on their own without any help from the Dalish due to assuming them all to be cruel and uncaring. Both are flawed- there will be more benevolent with Dalish with kinder views towards the city elves, but Dalish culture is an exclusionary identity politic ('real elves'), not a pan-racial identity politic ('all elves').

 

I don't recall anyone saying that the narrative supports or encourages readers to believe that Briala is right in her views, even if the conclusion (that the City Elves are on their own, and shouldn't rely on or expect significant Dalish support) if probably correct in the context of Orlais.

 

That's a good point, especially since the book does such an excellent job of showing the reader the world from the perspective of whatever the point of view character is at any given time, judgments, biases and all. But I still couldn't help get the feeling the book was trying to make the audience cheer for Briala by the end, despite all that. But perhaps that's just my mistaken assumption that these book always tried to include a message with it the story.

[TK514]

Perception is a funny thing, because I didn't find anything sympathetic about Briala or Celene at the end. If that was the authorial intent, he failed to convince me.

[stuffystuffs]

 

I don't recall anyone saying that the narrative supports or encourages readers to believe that Briala is right in her views, even if the conclusion (that the City Elves are on their own, and shouldn't rely on or expect significant Dalish support) if probably correct in the context of Orlais.

 

I think she dismissed the Dalish too quickly.  I'm not sure how it's going to be that much easier to get "the City Elves" on her side.  Which ones?  Perhaps most of them in Halamshiral will be easy to win over, but what about in Val Royeaux?   Elves that live and work in noble houses?  etc.  

[The Elder King]

I think she dismissed the Dalish too quickly.  I'm not sure how it's going to be that much easier to get "the City Elves" on her side.  Which ones?  Perhaps most of them in Halamshiral will be easy to win over, but what about in Val Royeaux?   Elves that live and work in noble houses?  etc.

Keep in mind that she can't possibly know that other dalish clans have different opinions on CE or even humans. Her reaction based on how the dalish acted in TME is appropriate, I think.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Keep in mind that she can't possibly know that other dalish clans have different opinions on CE or even humans. Her reaction based on how the dalish acted in TME is appropriate, I think.

 

But Felassan had just told her that all clans are different. After getting rejected at one point she even asks Felassan if they could try his clan instead. He says that they are far away and that most clans have fled the Dales. After that she doesn't seem to give it any more thought.

[The Elder King]

But Felassan had just told her that all clans are different. After getting rejected at one point she even asks Felassan if they could try his clan instead. He says that they are far away and that most clans have fled the Dales. After that she doesn't seem to give it any more though.

You're right, forgot about that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Perception is a funny thing, because I didn't find anything sympathetic about Briala or Celene at the end. If that was the authorial intent, he failed to convince me.

Well I suppose I shouldn't assume too much about authorial intent of trying to make me like someone, especially in a Bioware product where they often try to keep the story grey, but Briala's story seemed like it ended on a sort of triumphant note. But it was one that (even though I had sympathized with her for most of the book) I couldn't share. And perhaps because she'd gotten me on her side for most of the narrative so far I wondered if I had been supposed to.

 

As an elf fan, Briala and Felassan left me cold. I imagined my hypothetical Dalish Inquisitor saying "You idiots have doomed us all!"

[Mr.House]

But Felassan had just told her that all clans are different. After getting rejected at one point she even asks Felassan if they could try his clan instead. He says that they are far away and that most clans have fled the Dales. After that she doesn't seem to give it any more thought.

Name me one clan that has so far not been

1:Stupid

2:Extreme

3:Blind

4:Wants to return to the oldways(which we now know is just elven tevinter)

5:Looks down on city elves

[Dean_the_Young]

Perception is a funny thing, because I didn't find anything sympathetic about Briala or Celene at the end. If that was the authorial intent, he failed to convince me.

 

Have I ever mentioned how much I like your laconic posting style? I can go on and on for effect or elaboration, but you always cut into the heart of things. I appreciate that.

[The Hierophant]

Yeah about the Dalish. DA needs an all female clan of nudists. Basically elven amazons. Agreed?

 

*not the elderly. That's just nasty.* - edit

[Mistic]

Name me one clan that has so far not been

1:Stupid

2:Extreme

3:Blind

4:Wants to return to the oldways(which we now know is just elven tevinter)

5:Looks down on city elves

 

Well, if none of those conditions have to be met, no Dalish clan. But also no country or organization in Thedas.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, if none of those conditions have to be met, no Dalish clan. But also no country or organization in Thedas.

Does that include City Elves? 

*looks at #5*

[AresKeith]

Didn't WoT mention a Benevolent Dalish Clan near Rivain?

 

Rivain gets all the good stuff lol

[The Elder King]

Yeah about the Dalish. DA needs an all female clan of nudists. Basically elven amazons. Agreed?

I see what you did there .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah about the Dalish. DA needs an all female clan of nudists. Basically elven amazons. Agreed? 

And they should all be in perfectly functional lesbian relationships, or BioWare wil be degrading lesbians everywhere. Because if they were in dysfunctional relationships then THAT would be the degrading part of this scenario.....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Felessan compares Elvhenan to Orlais. Not Tevinter. And even if it was like the Imperium, I don't think the Dalish clans know that it was that way. Part of the reason Felessan has contempt for them is that they have overly romantic notions of what their past was like.

 

The members of each clan are different. But as a whole neither of the whole clans we'd seen so far have been "extreme" and the one elf who was violent in her racist attitudes towards humans was exiled for exactly that reason.

 

And I've already talked about examples of Dalish Elves not looking down on City Elves elsewhere but to reiterate:

 

Hahren Paivel says that City Elves are important to the Dalish because they will teach them to understand the shemlen. Lanaya doesn't understand why they live the way they do but doesn't hate them. Marithari shows respect to the City Elves that greet her. Pol was welcomed to the Sabrae Clan when he first arrived. Merrill shows no contempt for them at all when she goes to live amongst them, she even tells Fenris that the Tevinter elves could go to the Dalish for help. That one shopkeeper elf in Denerim's alienage supposedly was helped by the Dalish after he escaped the life of a slave in the Imperium.

 

But City Elves themselves are not exactly the highest paragons of tolerance and friendliness to outsiders. They're fairly insular. And they have their own context for the slur "flat ear" - City Elves that leave the Alienage. Pol tells the Sabrae Clan that many of them don't look at Dalish Elves as real elves just like the reverse. Shianni treats all outsider wardens badly until she realizes they saved Soris (if they did). And sometimes they've been known to threaten humans with violence if they think they can get away with it (like Mother Boann).

[The Hierophant]

Nah. Forget that noise, Emperor. Fanservice for everybody.

 

lolz

[Dean_the_Young]

And they should all be in perfectly functional lesbian relationships, or BioWare wil be degrading lesbians everywhere. Because if they were in dysfunctional relationships then THAT would be the degrading part of this scenario.....

 This is petty sniping even I can find unbecoming.

 

Knock it off, or take it elsewhere.

[EmissaryofLies]

And even now, people can't let it go. 

 

Nice post, Jedi. 

[LobselVith8]

But Felassan had just told her that all clans are different. After getting rejected at one point she even asks Felassan if they could try his clan instead. He says that they are far away and that most clans have fled the Dales. After that she doesn't seem to give it any more thought.

I received a different impression when Felassan told her, "Oh, Briala, by the way, the people you've idolized for the most part of your life are actually pompous idiots." They both hold contemptuous views of the Dalish, and Briala conflates the actions of Clan Virnehn with the behavior of all the Dalish, as evident in her admonishment of the People when talking to Mihris, right before they go their separate ways.

As an elf fan, Briala and Felassan left me cold. I imagined my hypothetical Dalish Inquisitor saying "You idiots have doomed us all!"

I'm curious, why is that?