528 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I can't really blame Briala. I mean, she had no evidence on the contrary. 

[In Exile]

While I haven't read the book yet, if Briala makes up her mind about an entire group of people based on one particular clan that seems to be an indictment of her personally rather than the author.

That is to say that even if we agree that the portrayal of the Dalish was poor, either Briala herself is poorly written if the aim is to show her as open minded or she is simply judgemental as a character.

Without reading the book it is hard to say either way, though I'm inclined to give Patrick Weeks the benefit of doubt since this Dalish clan really sounds very much like it was just the group representation of Zathtrian.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To be fair to Briala, based on the exposure we as players have had to the Dalish, her assessment of the Dalish seems spot on. I am sure there are benevolent Dalish clans out there, there might also be unicorns, but based on the evidence presented, there is only one conclusion.

[In Exile]

But we have lots of reasons besides just meeting two clans to question Dalish ideology - particularly first hand lore sources regarding their religious beliefs about humans and their cultural attitude to human-elf relations, as well as their specific lore on who the CEs are and what their failings are for not being Dalish.

That's not to say that all Dalish hold objectionable views. We see two Keepers who are quite progressive by Thedas standards to race relations. But it does seem like these people are the exception - if not to a general attitude held by people then at least with respect to the attitude embodied in the Dalish lore.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm curious, why is that?

 

Well putting aside the dubious morality behind deliberately tearing your own land apart, I think that the chaos that will cause will ultimately cause terrible repercussions (one way or another) for the elves and humans alike. And for the Dalish in particular if Briala tries to get them more directly involved in her plan, given how vulnerable the clans are.

 

Especially by the time the DAI roles around and demons will have begun pouring in from the sky. That's the type of thing that would throw any plan into question.

 

As you may know by now, I tend to have a very non militant attitude with my Dalish PCs' perspectives. Even if I believed retaking Halamshiral was a sustainable goal in the long term for the elves (and I don't), I don't think that the price of drowning Orlais in blood would be worth it. And since I am a fan of the Elves, I personally think it would be beneath them.

[stuffystuffs]

Part of me is now thinking that it has more to do with Briala realizing that she's the one that has to take initiative to improve the lives of the City elves and can't just rely on Celene to help or "the Dalish" to swoop in and save everything for them.  She now possibly has the means to make an impact (the eluvians) and just needs to to stop relying so much on others (or the idea of others).

 

 

So, it's less "I don't need the Dalish b/c they suck" and more "I just need to do this myself."

[Lenimph]

I always felt that it was about Briala realizing that she had to be the one to take initiative instead of counting on others to make the changes at her suggestion, even though Celene had made many changes to appease her, when it came to the point where Celene felt it was jeopardizing her seat in power she couldn't appease Briala any longer leading to  the events that finally made Briala realize the only way she could get what she wanted done was to do it on her own. 

 

In fact I really doubt the Dalish where even really on her mind when she had her "eff it" moment. 

[LobselVith8]

Well putting aside the dubious morality behind deliberately tearing your own land apart, I think that the chaos that will cause will ultimately cause terrible repercussions (one way or another) for the elves and humans alike. And for the Dalish in particular if Briala tries to get them more directly involved in her plan, given how vulnerable the clans are.
 
Especially by the time the DAI roles around and demons will have begun pouring in from the sky. That's the type of thing that would throw any plan into question.
 
As you may know by now, I tend to have a very non militant attitude with my Dalish PCs' perspectives. Even if I believed retaking Halamshiral was a sustainable goal in the long term for the elves (and I don't), I don't think that the price of drowning Orlais in blood would be worth it. And since I am a fan of the Elves, I personally think it would be beneath them.

Thank you, I appreciate you sharing your perspective with me.

[Augustei]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but ive just been reading Masked Empire and it says in the book Briala is 20.. But Celene inherited the throne in 9:20 Dragon, the book takes place in 9:40 Dragon and there are chapters where Briala talks with her mother of serving "Miss Celene" so before she was Emperor. So she was either a month or so old infant having proper normal conversations with her mother or her age is wrong and she is not 20, despite what the book says

EDIT: Nvm, it was a flashback.. Thats what I get for not checking my facts and reading the rest of the paragraph before hastily writing this =P

[Knight of Dane]

Just read the book through one entire sitting.

 

It made me like elves less, but it also made me look all the more forward to playing as one in DA:I.

[Gervaise]

Sorry if this has already been answered (I'm too lazy to read all 25 pages) but it struck me that the elven section of Val Royeaux didn't seem that bad.   Now in the past we have always been told that the alienage in Val Royeaux is one of the worst, with I think it was 10,000 elves crammed into the space of Denerim square, tenement blocks piled one on top of another and the light from the sun barely reaching the street even at midday. so was the bit the book visited not the alienage but just another place where there are a lot of elves?

 

Also, if we take it at face value that Felassan is killed at the end, was anyone else really disappointed that we won't be running into him in DAI?   There was I really hoping that me might actually be a party member (a long shot I know), although I suppose that Solas could be one of his "clan", seeing as he is meant to have expert knowledge of the Fade and is also Dalish (or appears to be).   What I liked about Felassan is that he was an elf and a mage with a sense of humour.    You have to admit that up to now most of the mages we encounter (with the exception of Anders in Awakening) have tended to be quite hard work and not given to levity, except in a very caustic way (Morrigan) or a slightly flakey irritating way (Merrill).   Mind you I'm not sure what Felassan really was but may be he was the equivalent of a Rivanni wise woman in that he had allowed himself to become deliberately possessed by a spirit in the past and this accounted for his extensive knowledge among other things.   I'm sure it was no coincidence that neither he nor Imshael got rained on.

 

However, I am hopeful that we will meet up with Michel.   The book went into a lot of detail about his skills but was fairly sparse on physical detail, which leaves the way open for the game designers.   I'd prefer him as a companion to Cullen (sacrilege I know!) but that's just me.   It does seem pretty likely that hunting down Imshael may be a side quest in DAI, unless of course he is involved in some bigger way.

 

And I agree with everyone else that the Elluvians will probably be introduced into DAI as the way we can speed around Thedas in a relatively short space of time, thus allowing us to visit more countries than could otherwise be logically explained if travelling by conventional means.  We won't necessarily have to necessarily travel through he anti-human paths since once they reached the central point, Briala was able to send them to wherever she desired via just one portal.  The trick is probably having the stone and the activation words and the Inquisitor will get either get these in reward for doing something for Briala or she will just have to accompany them each time they wish to use them.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

 I'd prefer him as a companion to Cullen

Me too.

[efd731]

Me too.

Yarp.

[Heimdall]

Thinking about the way Felassan has talked about ancient Elvhenan, and his attitude toward the Dalish, I'm beginning to think that he and perhaps his master are ancient elven dreamers recently awoken from uthenera.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Initially I thought it was heavily implied that Felassan has something to do with the ancient elves. He describes it like he was there, yet speaks as if he was not. He seems to know some things about the Elvhenan that no-one else does, yet other things he is equally clueless about.

[Gervaise]

First up, I thought the Masked Empire was good and obviously certain things had to happen for the plot to progress as it did.   However, one detail doesn't seem to ring true and that is how Celene deals with the play about Andraste and in fact the Divine's reaction to it.   Now may be heretic means something different Orlais but I was always under the impression that it meant someone who didn't follow the canon version of faith.   So here we have a playwright who suggests that Andraste put aside the crusade against Tevinter to cavort with a heretic elf and that as a result Maferath was forced to condemn her.   Not only is that a complete turnaround from what the Chantry teaches but is itself heresy and, if Sebastian was around, blasphemy as well.    I'm surprised there weren't riots in the streets of Val Royeaux demanding the perpetrators of the play were brought to account, not for what it said about the Empress but what it said about Andraste.   Clearly the people of Thedas are not as devout as we are led to believe, which is odd considering that townsfolk in Velun were perfectly prepared to string up the mages in Asunder for the assault on the Divine's life, even though the event was many miles away and didn't directly affect them.   And the common folk of Val Royeaux, even though they did not attend the play would certainly have heard about it and unlike the nobles wouldn't care a stuff about the Game.  

 

Yet instead of immediately calling for the arrest of the playwright and anyone who sponsored him to write such filthy words about their beloved Prophet and delivering them to the Divine for judgement (which would then make it her responsibility whether to absolve them or not - which given she is going to be bribed with a generous contribution by the noble seems likely), Celene simply sees it as a reference to her own affair and reacts accordingly.   Then the Divine instead of reprimanding her for not taking such action, says she expects Celene to move against the elves in Halamshiral, almost as if the Divine herself considers that the most appropriate response.   And Celene feels obliged to do as requested (even though she knows she has taken the appropriate steps) because she is told that it is a reciprocal arrangement so the Divine will do something about the Templars and mages (who at this point have not actually rebelled).    Even though it is the Divine's duty to sort matters about and it is generally agreed that inaction by Elthina led to her death.

 

Finally, even though she knows it is not a true rebellion but a bit of local unrest, Celene takes to the field herself in the southern reaches of the empire, when given her precarious political position, she needed to be at the centre of government.   If anything her action gives credence to the story of an elven rebellion and will make other elves bolder rather than the reverse. In fact. given her inexperience in the field, a wise ruler would know it better to entrust the mission to an experienced soldier.  Surely Celene would know this even without Briala there to tell her?   Has she no other advisors she can trust?   Has she no senior commanders she can trust with the mission?   After twenty years, you would think she would have managed to build up a better inner circle than that.   

 

So whilst I don't necessarily think Gaspard is the right person for the job either, if you take events at face value, I'd say he has a point.    As it is, Briala's action will benefit not only her elves, but also Ferelden, Nevarre and every other state that Orlais had its eye on, as they can concentrate on building themselves up while Orlais tears itself apart.    It will also take some of the heat off the mages because the Templars are going to have to deal with them on their own, whereas they might otherwise have been able to call on the might of Orlais to assist them.   Finally, it pretty much removes any temporal power from the Chantry.   The Divine no longer has the Templars to call on and no longer has the Empire of Orlais  to call on to deliver Exalted Marches.   If she, or any Grand Cleric, starts to make demands on the rulers of Thedas, particularly the ruler of Ferelden, because they take an action of which she do not approve, I think they will be able to safely tell her where to go.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It wasn't heresy. Technically you could call it blasphemy, but given the nature of theater, even that would be stretching it.

[Gervaise]

Heresy = wrong belief.    Under official Chantry teaching it is heresy to suggest that Shartan was in any way connected with Andraste - a Divine deliberately had all references to him removed from the Chant and even pictures depicting him erased or doctored to make him look human.    Official chantry teaching is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker (as well as Maferath) and it was her betrayal that caused the Maker to abandon mankind a second time.  Official Chantry teaching is that Mafarath was jealous of the Maker and of Andraste's popularity and credit for their victories and this caused him to betray her.   Official Chantry teaching would seem to suggest that once Andraste became the bride of the Maker, she was off limits for sex - hence the requirement for celibacy among the higher ranks of the clergy.  Official Chantry teaching is that after Mafarath betrayed Andraste he ended the crusade against Tevinter and thus is the reason it still exists today. 

 

So yes, suggesting that she was cavorting around with the elf Shartan, having sexual relations with him and that as a result Mafarath felt obliged to betray her in order for the crusade to succeed is heresy.  Blasphamy would come from the fact that they likened the Empress to Andraste.   She might rule with the Maker's blessing but she is not the Maker's Bride.   In fact, since Gaspard has not scruples against plotting against her, clearly the Divine Right of Kings does not apply to the Empress.

 

Clearly my Inquisitor will not have to worry about offending anyone with their comments about the Chantry and their "official" version of the Chant, since the nobility hold their own official religion in such disrespect, although I realise I've no guarantee I'm going to be allowed to voice my opinion.  You know, what they ought to have is some "Prophet of Doom" standing on the Grand Cathedral steps declaring that the Tear in the Veil is the Maker's wrath at this insult to his Bride but clearly the people of Thedas only take the Chant seriously when it backs up their own prejudices.  

[leaguer of one]

 

 

However, I am hopeful that we will meet up with Michel.   The book went into a lot of detail about his skills but was fairly sparse on physical detail, which leaves the way open for the game designers.   I'd prefer him as a companion to Cullen (sacrilege I know!) but that's just me.   It does seem pretty likely that hunting down Imshael may be a side quest in DAI, unless of course he is involved in some bigger way.

 

"I AM SER MICHEL DE CHEVIN!"

 

I'll be a happy man if I hear that cry in game.

[leaguer of one]

Heresy = wrong belief.    Under official Chantry teaching it is heresy to suggest that Shartan was in any way connected with Andraste - a Divine deliberately had all references to him removed from the Chant and even pictures depicting him erased or doctored to make him look human.    Official chantry teaching is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker (as well as Maferath) and it was her betrayal that caused the Maker to abandon mankind a second time.  Official Chantry teaching is that Mafarath was jealous of the Maker and of Andraste's popularity and credit for their victories and this caused him to betray her.   Official Chantry teaching would seem to suggest that once Andraste became the bride of the Maker, she was off limits for sex - hence the requirement for celibacy among the higher ranks of the clergy.  Official Chantry teaching is that after Mafarath betrayed Andraste he ended the crusade against Tevinter and thus is the reason it still exists today. 

 

So yes, suggesting that she was cavorting around with the elf Shartan, having sexual relations with him and that as a result Mafarath felt obliged to betray her in order for the crusade to succeed is heresy.  Blasphamy would come from the fact that they likened the Empress to Andraste.   She might rule with the Maker's blessing but she is not the Maker's Bride.   In fact, since Gaspard has not scruples against plotting against her, clearly the Divine Right of Kings does not apply to the Empress.

 

Clearly my Inquisitor will not have to worry about offending anyone with their comments about the Chantry and their "official" version of the Chant, since the nobility hold their own official religion in such disrespect, although I realise I've no guarantee I'm going to be allowed to voice my opinion.  You know, what they ought to have is some "Prophet of Doom" standing on the Grand Cathedral steps declaring that the Tear in the Veil is the Maker's wrath at this insult to his Bride but clearly the people of Thedas only take the Chant seriously when it backs up their own prejudices.  

Lots of thing to fix when I'm inquisitor.

 

On note. You need to consider  whether the people in charge care or not. The new divine would not care about what happened in the play, the empress made sure the chantry is out of academia and partly out of state, and the noble are far from blindly devoted to the chantry as seen in Asunder.

 

The thing is that no one that saw the play care and the divine does not care to do anything about it. The book made a point about that. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Heresy = wrong belief.    Under official Chantry teaching it is heresy to suggest that Shartan was in any way connected with Andraste - a Divine deliberately had all references to him removed from the Chant and even pictures depicting him erased or doctored to make him look human.    Official chantry teaching is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker (as well as Maferath) and it was her betrayal that caused the Maker to abandon mankind a second time.  Official Chantry teaching is that Mafarath was jealous of the Maker and of Andraste's popularity and credit for their victories and this caused him to betray her.   Official Chantry teaching would seem to suggest that once Andraste became the bride of the Maker, she was off limits for sex - hence the requirement for celibacy among the higher ranks of the clergy.  Official Chantry teaching is that after Mafarath betrayed Andraste he ended the crusade against Tevinter and thus is the reason it still exists today. 

 

So yes, suggesting that she was cavorting around with the elf Shartan, having sexual relations with him and that as a result Mafarath felt obliged to betray her in order for the crusade to succeed is heresy.  Blasphamy would come from the fact that they likened the Empress to Andraste.   She might rule with the Maker's blessing but she is not the Maker's Bride.   In fact, since Gaspard has not scruples against plotting against her, clearly the Divine Right of Kings does not apply to the Empress.

 

Clearly my Inquisitor will not have to worry about offending anyone with their comments about the Chantry and their "official" version of the Chant, since the nobility hold their own official religion in such disrespect, although I realise I've no guarantee I'm going to be allowed to voice my opinion.  You know, what they ought to have is some "Prophet of Doom" standing on the Grand Cathedral steps declaring that the Tear in the Veil is the Maker's wrath at this insult to his Bride but clearly the people of Thedas only take the Chant seriously when it backs up their own prejudices.  

That isn't entirely accurate. If the stageplay actually proclaimed to be how the events really happened, then yes, you could argue it was heretical in nature. However the stageplay makes no such claim, and is entirely an artistic story using known characters from religion. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book, to give your story more gravitas by connecting the characters in the story, with already well known characters.

 

As I said, the stageplay is much closer to blasphemy, since it could be considered as being insulting to Andrastians.

[Dean_the_Young]

Heresy = wrong belief.    Under official Chantry teaching it is heresy to suggest that Shartan was in any way connected with Andraste - a Divine deliberately had all references to him removed from the Chant and even pictures depicting him erased or doctored to make him look human.    Official chantry teaching is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker (as well as Maferath) and it was her betrayal that caused the Maker to abandon mankind a second time.  Official Chantry teaching is that Mafarath was jealous of the Maker and of Andraste's popularity and credit for their victories and this caused him to betray her.   Official Chantry teaching would seem to suggest that once Andraste became the bride of the Maker, she was off limits for sex - hence the requirement for celibacy among the higher ranks of the clergy.  Official Chantry teaching is that after Mafarath betrayed Andraste he ended the crusade against Tevinter and thus is the reason it still exists today. 

 

So yes, suggesting that she was cavorting around with the elf Shartan, having sexual relations with him and that as a result Mafarath felt obliged to betray her in order for the crusade to succeed is heresy.  Blasphamy would come from the fact that they likened the Empress to Andraste.   She might rule with the Maker's blessing but she is not the Maker's Bride.   In fact, since Gaspard has not scruples against plotting against her, clearly the Divine Right of Kings does not apply to the Empress.

 

Clearly my Inquisitor will not have to worry about offending anyone with their comments about the Chantry and their "official" version of the Chant, since the nobility hold their own official religion in such disrespect, although I realise I've no guarantee I'm going to be allowed to voice my opinion.  You know, what they ought to have is some "Prophet of Doom" standing on the Grand Cathedral steps declaring that the Tear in the Veil is the Maker's wrath at this insult to his Bride but clearly the people of Thedas only take the Chant seriously when it backs up their own prejudices.  

For all the horrors of religious dogma, authoritarian monarchy, and tyrianical history, no one was burned at the stake or executed for such disrespect to Empress and Chantry? You make a very compelling case that the Chantry and Orlais are more tolerant than many would give them credit for.

 

 

Though this
 

 

In fact, since Gaspard has not scruples against plotting against her, clearly the Divine Right of Kings does not apply to the Empress.

 

 

confuses me, since we've had had plenty of people conspire against monarchs claiming divine right in our world. Of course, some of these people felt they were the truly divinely appointed in contrast to someone less deserving. Others just didn't believe it personally even if the ruler claimed it.

 

Point is, it's a weird conclusion to claim.

[Augustei]

Finished the book early yesterday, Gotta say I dont see how people can compare Gaspard to Tywin Lannister...The guy reminds me more of a mix between Robert & Renly Baratheon. Anyway Before reading the book i was of the opinion that Celene would be my pick as the better cantidate for the throne of Orlais, and after reading it...I'm still of that opinion. Gaspard seems like a good general, but he is to Martial in nature and thinks to much like a general to be Emperor..It may serve him in the chaotic state Orlais is in as of Inquisition..But if he had initiated his plans before the mage rebellion and before the veil tears in the sky.. If he were an Emperor in Peace time then he would be awful, his solutions were all based around the millitary and all would have blown up in his face. Doesn't seem to stop him from having A fanatical fanbase though =P
The book actually caused me to think less of Celene, I used to have a very high opinion of her but as that was explored it revealed to me she is not as smart as I initially perceived (still smart, just no at the level I thought)
Despite me not liking his plans for the Empire I liked Gaspard as a character, thought he was interesting (wish I could say the same for his stupid lackey nobles)
Still like Celene and want her back on her throne
Still think Bann Teagan is an idiot..what little role he played
Felassan was probably my favourite character in the book
I liked all the main characters really, even Briala and Michael though i thought I wouldn't

Look foward to helping Celene get her throne back in Inquisiton and might help Briala recover her elven state

 

[thetoofster]

I wanted to like this book, I really did. I bought it hoping it would make for a more nuanced Inquisition experience, and also because friends whose opinions I usually trust raved about how good it was. Sadly, I couldn't even force myself to finish it. I got about two-thirds of the way through, to the part where the "heroes" massacre a bunch of defenseless Dalish elves, and thought, "Yeah...I think that's enough of that." I guess I'll skim through the synopsis on the Wiki to find out what happened in the last third of the book, just so I can have the full context for the inevitable references in Inquisition. 

 

It was a chore to slog through even before that point, really. The writing, while not abysmal, just seemed amateurish and wasn't engaging at all. A lot of the clunkier sentences could have used a more merciless editor. The characters and their relationships were similarly uninspiring. I was particularly disappointed with the romance between Celene and Briala. I had no investment whatsoever in their relationship and saw no reason to root for them (or either of them individually, really) because Weekes never gave any compelling reason for them to be in love. At its core, it was basically: "The characters are in love. They just are. BECAUSE I SAY SO!" A classic case of "telling" instead of "showing"--unfortunately an all-too-common pitfall, especially for less experienced writers. 

 

...Unless, I guess, the sole reason Celene loved Briala was because of the latter's "deep, beautiful eyes." Weekes sure mentioned them often enough. On a similar note, could he possibly have used the word "lover" any more times? I felt like every other page, it was, "Celene and Briala, who were lovers," "Celene looked at her lover," "Briala gazed at Celene, her lover," etc, etc. It's like, okay, yes, they're lovers. We get it already. A nitpick, sure, but something a more thorough edit could have nixed. 

 

All that to say, Weekes follows in Gaider's footsteps in proving that writing good video game quests/dialogue and writing good novels are two very different things.

[Lenimph]

They were friends as they were younger, feeling as if they could only trust one another in a society based on lies and death. It is not a leap to assume that this foundation of trust was the core factor as to why their friendship eventually blossomed into love.  

 

But apparently he wasn't obvious enough about that.