25 réponses à ce sujet

[XXIceColdXX]

So just wondering, as just had about a years hiatus from Mass Effect an the BSN , are we able to talk about IT or other similar ending theories on these new forums? Or is it still Banned.

[Malanek]

It was never banned as far as I was aware but the topic has been done to death, and in many peoples eyes proven false, so you may understand some people not wanting to talk about it. Individual threads that broke down to arguing may have been closed. It should probably also be in the story subforum rather than scuttlebut.

[XXIceColdXX]

Yeah IT threads were banned roughly about a year ago. Any discussions of IT were shut down by mods. The IT crowd packed up and went to another forum to discuss stuff.

That's why I ask.

[SwobyJ]

IT threads were banned.

 

Now I'm not so sure.

 

I just shrug and post what I want and haven't gotten an infraction yet for anything so yay! Yay!

[XXIceColdXX]

Sweet, well ill go with the flow . As long as not abusing anyone dont see any harm in chatting about a possible ending outcome.

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

Unsure what IT means. Indoctrination?

 

No doubt this topic was done to death back when game was brand new - "fun" entirely missed by those of us who didn't feel some epic huge urge to acquire/beat the game on day 1.

 

"Making your own choises" has always been one of the most celebrated features of the series. I've done just that; I've chosen to believe in Indoctrination ending. Out of the few concievable possibilities on table after ME3 is over, Indoctrination  feels by far  most powerful,surprising,cool and unpredictable. There is much grim, harsh power in message of the entire Franchise, should we decide to believe in Indoctornation.

 

Seriously wounded Shepard collapsing on an elevator, ascending towards the light. Dat symbolism. Encore that follows is just echoes of a broken,dying  mind Reapers feed to newly Huskified Shepard.

 

There are visual cues and more or less subtle hints that make it clear this is what writing team would have liked to do. At least they loved flirting with idea,implying it. I am sure they don't have Kahunas to make it canon though,should it ever be needed to..canonize any of the endings.

 

Personally, I'm amazed there are people who pick Synthesis/Control endng and - don't- suspect it is Reapers controlling Shepard,feeding him whatever images and truths they please.   Like...this is what they do, you know;o This is how they do it.

 

I love the ME4 Indoctrination Ending makes possible. Intergalactic civilization gets wiped out. Fast forward some 10k years. First new species have discovered space travel. I'd love to be an arheologist Invetigating Earth that got wiped out thousands of years back. I'm 100% sure this won't happen. Instead, ME4 is gonna feature Sergeant Dirge McCool with lasor rifle shooting aliens in sici ****** bar. But it'd be awesome.

[AlanC9]

There's a sporadically-popular IT thread over on Story right now. No lock yet. The worst that will happen is merciless mockery of IT believers.

[AlanC9]

I love the ME4 Indoctrination Ending makes possible. Intergalactic civilization gets wiped out. Fast forward some 10k years. First new species have discovered space travel. I'd love to be an arheologist Invetigating Earth that got wiped out thousands of years back. I'm 100% sure this won't happen. Instead, ME4 is gonna feature Sergeant Dirge McCool with lasor rifle shooting aliens in sici ****** bar. But it'd be awesome.

I didn't come to play.... but what the hell does this have to do with Indoctrination? If you want that ending, just Refuse.

[Farangbaa]

Personally, I'm amazed there are people who pick Synthesis/Control endng and - don't- suspect it is Reapers controlling Shepard,feeding him whatever images and truths they please.   Like...this is what they do, you know;o This is how they do it.

 

personally, I'm amazed people pick destroy and doom the galaxy.

[Probe Away]

personally, I'm amazed people pick destroy and doom the galaxy.

Destroy doesn't doom the galaxy, what rubbish. It sets techmology back and strands colonies by damaging relays but at least people can rebuild their lives.

REFUSE dooms the galaxy, control leaves the reapers around and synthesis basically transforms everyone against their will. As far as I'm concerned, destroy is the best of a bad situation.

Not that any of that is on topic.

[Farangbaa]

Destroy doesn't doom the galaxy, what rubbish. It sets techmology back and strands colonies by damaging relays but at least people can rebuild their lives.

REFUSE dooms the galaxy, control leaves the reapers around and synthesis basically transforms everyone against their will. As far as I'm concerned, destroy is the best of a bad situation.

Not that any of that is on topic.

 

Yes it does. It dooms the galaxy even more than refuse.

[CannotCompute]

Well, I pretty much headcanoned IT (or at least big parts of it) after finishing the game twice. It's the only way to get the ending to make sense for me.

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

 control leaves the reapers around and synthesis basically transforms everyone against their will.

 

Who kindly presents these options to Shepard? Who is it that explains him what they mean?  Isn't this exactly how Reapers got Saren?  Aren't their whispers and taint all about saving the galaxy. All about greater good. Unselfish sacrifices made, great compromises done  and immense  power gained to serve civilization, justice and greater good. This is all reapers being reapers,mon.

 

Dream like random ball o fates that comes after is something little similar to what Matrix (from movie Matrix!) does to people it uses. They want Shepard happy, feeling his great sacrifice was made and wasn't meaningless. Maybe he is more efficient husk if mind deep underneath it all is happy! Or maybe they have some more elaborate use for him in years to come.

[DextroDNA]

Yes it does. It dooms the galaxy even more than refuse.

Um, how? In my ending the Relays and Citadel were rebuilt, the Reapers died and life carried on as it did before the Reaper invasion. Oh, and my Shepard is alive.

How is the Galaxy doomed?

[Farangbaa]

Um, how? In my ending the Relays and Citadel were rebuilt, the Reapers died and life carried on as it did before the Reaper invasion. Oh, and my Shepard is alive.

How is the Galaxy doomed?

 

You're only looking at the short term. You're not taking away the AI/Organic problem.

 

And no, I do not think that to be a problem because the Catalyst told me so, or because the Leviathan told me so. I consider this a real world problem. Not for now, but for the (near) future.

 

Before anyone asks: I am not agaist AI research, not at all. Creating a true AI would pretty much equate us to God, which sounds good to me. And, of course, the knowledge and possibilities. But we have to accept there's a chance it will go very, very wrong. It's up the scientists to minimize the risk. (just do it in a space station that has multiple ways of self destruction in case everything goes to hell.

[Han Shot First]

Yes it does. It dooms the galaxy even more than refuse.

 

No it doesn't.

 

There is absolutely no evidence in the galaxy's own history that synthetics pose any greater risk to organics than other organic factions do.

[AlanC9]

Of course, the galaxy's own history has been controlled by the Catalyst, so.....

[DextroDNA]

You're only looking at the short term. You're not taking away the AI/Organic problem.

 

And no, I do not think that to be a problem because the Catalyst told me so, or because the Leviathan told me so. I consider this a real world problem. Not for now, but for the (near) future.

 

Before anyone asks: I am not agaist AI research, not at all. Creating a true AI would pretty much equate us to God, which sounds good to me. And, of course, the knowledge and possibilities. But we have to accept there's a chance it will go very, very wrong. It's up the scientists to minimize the risk. (just do it in a space station that has multiple ways of self destruction in case everything goes to hell.

Well, seeing as all the AIs were destroyed - there's not much of a problem.

 

I think if the organics decided to build more synthetics (e.g rebuilding the Geth), they'd treat them as equals and be more careful with them after learning from past experiences.

[Farangbaa]

Well, seeing as all the AIs were destroyed - there's not much of a problem.

 

I think if the organics decided to build more synthetics (e.g rebuilding the Geth), they'd treat them as equals and be more careful with them after learning from past experiences.

 

Lol, no they won't.

 

You're thinking in terms of years, decades, centuries and maybe millenia. The Catalyst thinks in terms of millions and billions of years. You can't possibly presume that organics will remember that long.

 

Nor can you presume that the newly created AI's will be friendly. They're not all EDI's or Geth.

 

No it doesn't.

 

There is absolutely no evidence in the galaxy's own history that synthetics pose any greater risk to organics than other organic factions do.

 

Yes there is. It leads to the creation of the Catalyst.

 

Wait, I read your post wrong. How is organic vs organic a problem of the same magnitude? The winner will always be organic.

[Han Shot First]

The Catalyst can't be compared to other synthetics because the circumstances surrounding its creation are so vastly different from say, the Geth or EDI. The Catalyst was created from the start to be a kind of galactic viceroy, and given this mandate by its creators to solve a 'problem' with synthetics threatening organics by any means necessary. It began its life with near unlimited power and extremely flawed programming. The Catalyst is basically like Skynet from the Terminator series. 

 

Beyond the Catalyst no synthetic faction has ever been more of a threat to the galaxy than other organic factions. In Shepard's cycle the Krogan (during the Krogan Rebellions) were arguably a much bigger threat to the galaxy than the Geth ever were. The Leviathans also defeated rogue synthetics in their cycle, and the Protheans won the Metacon war.

[SwobyJ]

The issue for the Catalyst, apparently, isn't that organics will be eliminated.

 

It's that by creating synthetics and triggering conflict with them, organics ensure their own devastation. Many deaths that are final - not preserved in any virtual space or whatever, but just ended.

 

For whatever reason (benevolent or domineering or both), the Leviathans do NOT like that more destructive cycle.

'Constant' incidents of synthetics growing beyond organics, those organics waging war against them, and synthetics committing genocidal actions in response... then with Leviathans likely having to keep stepping in and stomping the synthetics down, until the 'chaos' inevitably comes back.

 

So they make an Intelligence themselves, somehow. They issue it a mandate to preserve organic life, and to establish a connection between organic and synthetic life.

 

In itself, that's a positive goal compared to what was happening before. However, it seemed to lack any compassion and care. It was an Old God programming for Human scale problems. 'Organic life' instead of 'As many organics lives as reasonably possible'.

 

If the lore information we're given is legit, the Reaper cycle actually IS somewhat better than what existed before. Civilizations are at least allowed to grow on mostly their own terms, and to do so for 10,000s of years. The price is the Reaping, but imo it's still not fully understood how exactly organics are 'preserved' in a Reaper. Typically at least in religion/mythology, the reaping isn't a final death, but instead the transition into hell, purgatory, eternity, or heaven.

 

In any case, it may be arguably better than having constant struggles and mass deaths against synthetic races over 1000s of years instead of a Reaping every few 10,000s. Depends on just how much you value the freedom to make mistakes over and over and over and over...

 

And then, just as the Leviathans were looking for a solution to their problems that ends up being their end, the Reapers are looking for a solution to their problems that will end up being their own end.

 

~~~

 

This is where it heads into personal theory time - I actually think the ending is virtual, and that it represents the universe inside a Reaper (the Intelligence being Sovereign). This Reaper and/or its controller/pilot will then be given autonomy to seek out the next step for the galaxy (beyond Domination/Destruction by Leviathan and Indoctrination/Control by Reapers).

 

Ultimately, this WILL lead to a form of 'synthesis' (synthesis simply being the end result of thesis and antithesis, philosophically), but as the player, we'll decide what that 'synthesis' really means along the way. If we jump at Synthesis in ME3, well Shepard said it himself that 'control' is at least a bad idea, so Synthesis is probably worse. However, it still represents Shepard's dreams and hopes for the future, so I personally don't consider it some ultimate doom. You don't 'win' (in terms of full victory), but I think you've still helped the galaxy in your own way, to prepare for the actual hard work yet to come - making a galaxy that won't require anything like the Leviathans or Reapers set up.

 

But that's just a theory, and way beyond IT... 0_0. Heck, it's even only a hypothesis with some possible evidence, nothing more.

[AlanC9]

Beyond the Catalyst no synthetic faction has ever been more of a threat to the galaxy than other organic factions. In Shepard's cycle the Krogan (during the Krogan Rebellions) were arguably a much bigger threat to the galaxy than the Geth ever were. The Leviathans also defeated rogue synthetics in their cycle, and the Protheans won the Metacon war.

While this argument is true, it has no force. The premise of the Catalyst's argument is that sufficiently advanced AIs will destroy organics and end history. Since the Catalyst always prevents anyone from getting past the Prothean level of development, no such advanced AIs have ever existed, unless you want to count the original Reapers.

If super-powerful aliens always tried to prevent human civilization from destroying the biosphere with global warming by, say, bombing us back to the stone age at the moment the internal-combustion engine was developed, the argument that previous cycles hadn't destroyed the biosphere even though they all invented trains would not get you anywhere.

[Eumerin]

Beyond the Catalyst no synthetic faction has ever been more of a threat to the galaxy than other organic factions. In Shepard's cycle the Krogan (during the Krogan Rebellions) were arguably a much bigger threat to the galaxy than the Geth ever were.

The Rachni were as well. And ironically, there are some pretty strong hints that they went genocidal due to the influence of the so-called AI saviors of the galaxy.

[Abelas Forever!]

I believe in IT theory. There are several reasons for that. First I haven't seen any evidence that could invalidate it. Obviously reapers have the ability to make you believe that you are somewhere else like Leviathans did. So the ending could happen in Shepard's mind what was similar thing that happened in Leviathan dlc. So Leviathans created the reapers to protect the organic life no matter what and reapers are doing that but they can't understand that their solution is bad because while they preserve the organic life they will kill everybody at the same time. Because they are not organic they can't understant that. They just think that their solution isn't perfect and I guess one reason why reapers think that their solution isn't perfect is that they haven't been able to create any other reaper than Harbinger who has one mind of that race. So what I think what means making a reaper is that you kill many people and then you choose one mind to be the one who controls that reaper. I'm not sure are they going to try that with Shepard so that everybody else will die but Shepard will be controlling the human reaper. This was just a thought and that doesn't relate to IT theory.

 

There is also the other thing which makes IT more interesting. The greatest battle for Shepard wasn't the reaper war with guns and everything. It was the battle inside his/her mind so that Shepard couldn't become indoctrinated and that way become the enemy. So no big decisions, not becoming a hero, just not becoming the enemy.

 

Well. I'm not sure was IT intended even all the evidence or could they confirm it because I think that so many people hate the idea.

[ozthegweat]

You're only looking at the short term. You're not taking away the AI/Organic problem.

 

And no, I do not think that to be a problem because the Catalyst told me so, or because the Leviathan told me so. I consider this a real world problem. Not for now, but for the (near) future.

He's not taking the AI/organic problem away because for him (and for me), this problem doesn't exist.

 

Just because AIs during the time of the Leviathans were eradicating organic life doesn't mean this has to happen every cycle. It didn't happen this cycle, the Geth kept for themselves.