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[lyleoffmyspace]

A fascinating part of Dragon Age in my opinion is the Old Gods. All we know is that they are draconic creatures who slumber deep underground. The darkspawn are called to their "song" much like Red Lyrium "sings" so they must be highly magical creatures. Also the Tevinter  used to worship them. Some people have said they were imprisoned by the Maker.

 

First interesting question is about their imprisonment. When were they imprisoned? By whom? How long they were they imprisoned? How were they worshipped if they were deep underground, and how did the Tevinter have knowledge of them? Did they imprison themselves to stop the blight?

 

Second question is what are they? Are they just giant, unique dragons? Is it an intelligent dragon? Is it an entity from the fade possessing a dragon?  Are they creatures who can shapeshift into draconic form, and by extension, is Flemeth an Old God? Were they active in an active state or were they always dormant? Do they have any relation to the Elven gods?

 

Thirdly...why are they sleeping, and is Flemeth the awakened but uncorrupted forms of one of these?]

 

Finally, what form of worship did the Tevinter have for them? Blood sacrifices seems likely but did they draw their power from these?

[Ieldra]

I share your fascination with these entities. They're one of Thedas' big mysteries. Having said that, while it would be a tad disappointing, we must consider the possibility that they're "just dragons", which, as a rule, aren't intelligent on Thedas. Also, there is another important thing we know about them: five of them are supposedly dead, though if they really have super-draconic attributes, that may not be final.

Apart from that, most of your questions have no answer. If I may present some speculation:

(1) What people have called an "Old God" is an intelligent dragon with considerable magical power. Normal dragons aren't intelligent according to Thedas lore, so these are special. Like with all so-called gods, the appellation "deity" lies purely in the minds of others.

(2) The imprisonment of these dragons - if that's indeed the case - is connected to the creation of the Veil - the time before was "when dragons roamed the skies" according to Yavana, so apparently their disappearance coincided with the formation of the Veil. It is my hypothesis (see thread linked in sig) that the Veil was an unintentional side effect of the ancient Dreamers' efforts to keep Fade spirits from destroying civilization, and in the same way the imprisonment of the dragons is such a side effect. An alternative hypothesis is that the "imprisonment" is an incorrect term, that they're simply prevented from manifesting by the same mechanism that keeps the spirits in the Fade.

(3) The Dragon Age is about the return of dragons, so that might mean that the Old Gods are destined to return as well. Some may be dead, but what you might call their essence - in a way similar to the God's essence in the Baldur's Gate series - still exists and can be used to bring them back to life.

(4) It is possible for a human, qunari or elf (not so sure about Dwarves) to absorb an Old God's essence, thus acquiring at least some of its powers. In that process, the recipient's identity is not overwritten.

(5) I consider it likely that Flemeth is, as she claims, "an old, old woman" who has acquired some of the Old Gods' powers through absorption of their essence. A possible alternative is that she is of their kind - an intelligent dragon - but not one of the known seven.

(6) I consider it likely that the Archdemons are corrupted dragons and that some of them are still sleeping somewhere, based on the lore that some Wardens can sense where they sleep. Whether they are those dragons revered in the old Imperium as the Old Gods is less certain but still more likely than not.

So much for my speculation. Evidence for all this is unfortunately either circumstantial or completely absent. I have just connected the bits in order to create a consistent narrative.

[TheForgottenOne]

Hard to say. But it might be possible that the Old Gods worshipped in Tevinter were the same as the Forgotten Ones (of elven mythology) who were betrayed by Fen'Harel. They don't exactly resemble your average high dragon (Urthemiel looks slightly different: more mutated). As for Flemeth there are a thousand posts discussing what she truly is. She might be an OGB (like Morrigan's child), or the Formless One (one of the four spirits who taught blood magic to mages) or a very powerful maleficar who delved so deep into the old magic that she may have lost her humanity.

Elven mythology says that the Creators (the good guys) were always with war with the Forgotten Ones (the baddies). However Fen'Harel the trickster walked a fine line between good and evil and was hence trusted by both sides. Using this to his advantage he convinced both the sides that the other had developed a powerful weapon..blah, blah, blah. Finally he imprisoned both the Forgotten Ones (by casting them into an abyss) and the Creators (trapped them in their realm). Now the abyss is generally located underground. I feel that the Maker is Fen'Harel. It was hinted a few times in DAO (some side missions and Witch Hunt) that the Golden City (the Maker's place) was never golden but always black and the Tevinter mages who attempted the siege were "tricked".

But then if my theory is true what happened to the "Creators"? Why don't they do something? Varric did mention in DA 2 that everything the Chantry stood for is crumbling. Is he referring to the mage rebellion alone or Is the rip in the Veil and everything coming through bringing new info to light about the Maker and Andraste? Also the Wardens are up to something as is the Architect. Guess all we can do is wait and see

[TheForgottenOne]

I hadn't considered till now that the song of the Old Gods may be similar to the lyrium idol singing. I think the idol is the work of an ancient dwarven race (possibly one that had mages). Bartrand says that the architecture of the primeval thaig doesn't resemble Orzammar or any of the lost thaigs. It could have something to do with Sandal. In DA2 Sandal keeps saying he wants to go home. Is he referring to Fereldan or to something else?

There is also a theory (I highly doubt it) that Sandal and Fleneth are the last 2 Old Gods. Just thought you should know.

[Gervaise]

I think there is a likelihood that everyone in Thedas is talking about the same thing but with a slightly different outlook on it.  Sebastian even admits as much when talking with Merrill.  She says they believe the elven gods will start talking to them again when they remember what it is to be elvish and of course the Chant of Light says the Maker will only return when everyone follows the Chant of Light.  So Sebastian says that may be they are both talking about the same divine force.

 

I suspect the elven gods are actually benign fade spirits and the forgotten ones do correspond with the old gods.   They are likely dragons that were possessed by demons to gain an entry into the material world but may have been "intelligent" dragons in the first place, which is why they attracted attention to themselves.   Whatever the case, it would seem that they taught mortals the secrets of blood magic.   I say mortals rather than simply humans because there are varying accounts of who they learnt it from, the old gods and the elves themselves.     If you assume that the elves resorted to blood magic in response to the threat from the humans, this might account for why their "gods" appeared to abandon them around the same time as the benign fade spirits either no longer wanted to be associated with them or had actually been frightened off by their association with demons.   In Asunder the lesser "good" spirits appear to flee in the presence of demons and it is only the powerful faith spirit that is confident enough to confront one.    If the elves were demonstrating lack of faith in their own gods by resorting to blood magic, this would account for why no powerful benign faith spirits came to their aid.

 

The Tevinter definitely worshipped the old gods and it is said they used dragons among other things in their battles against the elves, but these were probably ordinary dragons that they controlled with blood magic.   May be after the elves were defeated, the dragon gods went underground to hibernate and at this point were sealed in, possibly by the Maker/Fen'Harel as the tales suggest.     However, they could still communicate via dreams with the Magisters and this is why they encouraged them to attack the Golden City, hoping it would free them.    When the Magisters became corrupt, they could still hear the song of the old gods, as could their followers and this is why they continued to seek them out, partly out of a desire for revenge and partly because they couldn't help themselves.    In Awakening the Mother goes mad because she can't bear no longer being able to hear the song.    When the darkspawn reach the old gods, they do in fact release them, but in the process taint them.    However, I think it is no coincidence that they are known as archdemons because that is what they were in the first place.

 

I'm pretty certain the old gods must have be present on the surface initially because otherwise how would the Tevinter know that they were being attacked by one of their own gods.   It was the fact that Dumat, the chief of their old gods, was leading the darkspawn against them that caused such a crisis of faith.

 

Someone has suggested that Flemeth may actually be the Lady of the Skies that was revered by southern barbarian tribes.   In one of the stories it talks of how she carried a group of them off to help them escape their enemies, which sounds an awful lot like Flemeth.     Flemeth was a real women at one time but at some point became possessed/united with something else, probably much as Wynne was united with her faith spirit or Anders with Justice.   It is, of course, entirely possible that what she united with was one of the old gods, hence her ability to shape shift into a dragon.  It would also account for why she formed the plan, pursued by Morrigan, of trying to save the soul of the old god, and regarded the darkspawn as a threat to herself.

[Wolfen09]

I don't think there is enough information to actually form a real theory at this point.

 

1.  We know they sing

 

     Possible connections to lyrium which means possible connections to fade, which would coincide with the black city and the darkspawn having a connection to the fade.

 

2.  They are Dragons

 

     Dragons have been around since the beginning of time, even before the veil existed.  Dragon's blood seems to be of some importance, though we have no idea how this affects anything.

 

3.  Worshiped by Tevinter Magisters

 

     It was my understanding that Tevinter was founded before the religion of the old gods had become popular, if so could it not be conceived that the old gods were "man made" experiments by the Tevinter?  Maybe an attempt to have a demon posess a dragon?  Overtime the true thought was lost and wound up being mistaken for gods?

 

4.  The maker banished them to eternal sleep

 

    First we would have to prove the maker, or some phenomenon to explain it.  Maybe something like what happened with our dinosaurs happened and caused them to die out or slumber or something...  (personally i think they are hiding on mars...)  Or maybe once again it was a man made phenomenon that put them to sleep.

 

 

Of course there is probably some stuff im not entirely right on right now, plus im too lazy to go back and check 

[TheForgottenOne]

I don't think they are just dragons. Riordan (or Morrigan, I don't exactly remember) says that when the Archdemon is killed the Old God comes out looking for a vessel to enter. The whole purpose of the Dark Ritual is also to ensure that the Old God's soul enters Morrigan's unborn child. This is not something any dragon can do. Also in Darkspawn Chronicles the Archdemon issues orders to you indicating he is not a mere beast that just roars and breathes fire.

Also, will Morrigan be able to turn into a dragon in DA: I?

[WidePaul]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Maker sealed the Old Gods away for stealing His followers from Him. Not sure where I read that, so maybe they were "lesser" gods that were becoming a threat to the Maker and He imprisoned them before they could overpower Him. As to what they actually are now, I'm not sure, I've not read any of the books or anything, I only know what I've seen in the games, so I'm somewhat lacking knowledge/lorewise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Personally I hold the belief the Old Gods only took the visage of dragons while here in Thedas. They probably wanted to inspire as much awe as possible, and what's better at that than a giant dragon? I don't think they are ordinary dragons for the facts already presented like the ability to communicate but because biologically they are different. Mainly despite having wings they Old Gods are male, and male dragons don't have wings. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wish I ran into one when they were actual old gods. Not blight creatures. I just watched Desolation of Smaug. Talking dragons are awesome.

Hey, there are still two sleeping. You just need to find one of them before the Darkspawn do and corrupt them.

[TheForgottenOne]

As I said earlier the elven Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones were  at war. Does this have something to do with the attack of Tevinter on Arlathan and then the Dales? We know that the Tevinter mages worshipped the Old Gods and the Dalish worshipped the Creators.

[Lotion Soronarr]

It is possible for a human, qunari or elf (not so sure about Dwarves) to absorb an Old God's essence, thus acquiring at least some of its powers. In that process, the recipient's identity is not overwritten.

 

I would say no to this.

 

DR is the only instance of getting an old gods soul and it "overwrites" a still not fully formed soul of a child.

It destroys a full formed soul.

[Ieldra]

I think it is reasonable to assume the non-existence of all gods unless we get strong evidence to the contrary. So things like "the elven pantheon and the Forgotten Ones were at war" is a meaningless statement, just mythology. If there are any historical events behind those myths at all, it's much more likely that no gods were involved and those conflicts are long gone and completely irrelevant to the present.

 

The Old Gods are different because claims are made about them being the very tangible Archdemons, and because there is - in support of that claim - something unusual about the archdemons that makes Morrigan's ritual possible. As opposed to most others, she also appears to have some real knowledge about them. So I tentatively accept that the Old Gods actually exist(ed) and that they were turned into the archdemons, while still dismissing all other mythological figures.

 

@Lotion:

I made this statement because Morrigan indicates that the child will not be the Old God, just have its essence. This is also the reason for my statement that this metaphysical essence may not carry identity in Thedas, being perhaps closer to the god's essence in the Baldur's Gate series, which also didn't overwrite your identity.

[TheForgottenOne]

The "gods" could just be very powerful fade spirits (possibly alpha fade spirits). I thought that humans and elves acknowledge the presence of gods while dwarves don't(they worship their ancestors). And only the humans and elves have mages. (hard to say anything about the qunari mythology or their mages). Is it because the human and elven mages encountered something in the Fade which they considered as a god(s) while dwarves who are completely cut off don't know anything about gods?

[Ieldra]

The "gods" could just be very powerful fade spirits (possibly alpha fade spirits). I thought that humans and elves acknowledge the presence of gods while dwarves don't(they worship their ancestors). And only the humans and elves have mages. (hard to say anything about the qunari mythology or their mages). Is it because the human and elven mages encountered something in the Fade which they considered as a god(s) while dwarves who are completely cut off don't know anything about gods?

Quite possible. As I said, if we encounter them, I'll acknowledge them. However, until I have reason to believe otherwise, I'll go with the standard assumption of the field that studies such things and assume that a myth has a (usually perfectly mundane) historical core, but the story itself is so far removed from that core, both in time and through adaptation, that it doesn't mean anything tangible any more and has become "just a story" - or to use an expression more to the point, story instead of history. In the case of Thedas lore, this historical core could be about interaction with Fade spirits who actually had some claim to the kind of power you usually ascribe to a deity, but the story would still rather likely to be far removed from the source, with the real events having been so different from the story to be almost unrecognizable.

[Mister Gusty]

Well according to Sten "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men," so take that as you will

[Ieldra]

@Streetmagic:

In the most general sense, using a term like "essence" or "soul" implies that (some) life on Thedas has a nonphysical aspect, so no, it's not completely meaningless, in spite of our ignorance about the attributes of such an aspect.

 

@MisterGutsy:

Thank you for quoting that. I recalled it vaguely, but didn't remember who said it. The interesting thing about this is that according to some sources, the first human kings were Dreamers. So, is an "Old God" an intelligent dragon who will shape the Fade through its mere presence, affecting all who travel or dream therein? That would give some justification to the designation "deity".

 

@Streetmagic:

How would you view them then, assuming some entities can exist which fit the description?

[TheForgottenOne]

Lusacan and Razikale haven't yet been killed. Nathaniel Howe hints that Hawke's expedition brought new info to light and that his venture into the deep roads was ordered by the first warden himself. The Architect (if spared) is trying to understand the exact nature of the song of the Old Gods and wants to ensure that the Darkspawn remain unaffected. Also In awakening, you encounter the Queen of the Blackmarsh, a powerful Fade entity manifesting itself in the form of a dragon. These could reveal what the Old Gods truly are?

Morrigan does speak of the Old Gods with respect and says that the child having the essence of an Old God is a good thing which leads me to believe that the Old Gods were not necessarily evil from the beginning.

[TheForgottenOne]

I think sylvan are spirits trapped in trees. So nature might be consistent after all.

[Ieldra]

Lusacan and Razikale haven't yet been killed. Nathaniel Howe hints that Hawke's expedition brought new info to light and that his venture into the deep roads was ordered by the first warden himself. The Architect (if spared) is trying to understand the exact nature of the song of the Old Gods and wants to ensure that the Darkspawn remain unaffected. Also In awakening, you encounter the Queen of the Blackmarsh, a powerful Fade entity manifesting itself in the form of a dragon. These could reveal what the Old Gods truly are?

Morrigan does speak of the Old Gods with respect and says that the child having the essence of an Old God is a good thing which leads me to believe that the Old Gods were not necessarily evil from the beginning.

Indeed, I have always assumed that the Old Gods, if the stories about them are true, were originally not hostile to Thedas' civilizations. Also, the claim the Archdemons are "corrupted" Old Gods supports this assumption, indicating that they might've been changed against their will. On the other hand, if my hypothesis is true that the ancient Dreamers shut off the Fade and the Old Gods with it, that may have been some cause for resentment. Still, the stories don't indicate any evil before the first Blight. It might be that the the events at the Black City were an accidental outcome of trying to re-open the Fade.

 

In addition, the stories say that the sleeping Old Gods will be "corrupted" once the darkspawn find them, and then rise as archdemons. That means that the still sleeping dragons are as yet unaffected by the Taint. I wonder if that mirrors what the old magisters tried to do - gain control over the Old Gods. Hmm....probably not, Corypheus doesn't come across that way.