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[Lotion Soronarr]

Lusacan and Razikale haven't yet been killed. Nathaniel Howe hints that Hawke's expedition brought new info to light and that his venture into the deep roads was ordered by the first warden himself. The Architect (if spared) is trying to understand the exact nature of the song of the Old Gods and wants to ensure that the Darkspawn remain unaffected. Also In awakening, you encounter the Queen of the Blackmarsh, a powerful Fade entity manifesting itself in the form of a dragon. These could reveal what the Old Gods truly are?

Morrigan does speak of the Old Gods with respect and says that the child having the essence of an Old God is a good thing which leads me to believe that the Old Gods were not necessarily evil from the beginning.

 

Morrigan also thinks murdering elven slaves is a good thing.

So yeah.

When she considers something good, my alarms go off.

[Ieldra]

Morrigan also thinks murdering elven slaves is a good thing.

So yeah.

When she considers something good, my alarms go off.

Well, no. She doesn't see it as a good thing, she sees the death of the elves as an acceptable trade-off for getting the evidence against Loghain while not having to fight more Tevinter blood mages and getting some more resources for the fight against the darkspawn on top of it. Which actually makes some sense from a "nothing matters but killing the archdemon" viewpoint. It only doesn't come across that way because fighting Caladrius doesn't cost us anything, and from a gameplay viewpoint it's something we might want to do anyway.

 

This is, btw, a good example for why "earn your best outcome" doesn't work if "earning" essentially means playing more of the game.

[TheForgottenOne]

Romancing Morrigan opens a new set of dialogue and you can see a whole new side to her. I don't think she will let anything bad happen to her child or see the baby as a means to an end. Even if she does she won't like it. At the end of it all she wants the Blight to end.

I don't think Flemeth or Morrigan are evil. They are more like SHIELD agents. They do what has to be done even if its bad.

[Ieldra]

Romancing Morrigan opens a new set of dialogue and you can see a whole new side to her. I don't think she will let anything bad happen to her child or see the baby as a means to an end. Even if she does she won't like it. At the end of it all she wants the Blight to end.

I don't think Flemeth or Morrigan are evil. They are more like SHIELD agents. They do what has to be done even if its bad.

And that's something people like Lotion are in all-out support of when it's all about the templars.... do I see hypocrisy?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Romancing Morrigan opens a new set of dialogue and you can see a whole new side to her. I don't think she will let anything bad happen to her child or see the baby as a means to an end. Even if she does she won't like it. At the end of it all she wants the Blight to end.

I don't think Flemeth or Morrigan are evil. They are more like SHIELD agents. They do what has to be done even if its bad.

Except SHIELD agents serve to aid much more than just themselves, while Flemeth and Morrigan do not.

[TheForgottenOne]

Most Templars forget their duty. They view mages more or less as freaks (similar to X-Men). A very good thing about DA 2 is that both the mages and Templars have valid points. I went with the mages in the end because my PC was a mage.

[TheForgottenOne]

Except SHIELD agents serve to aid much more than just themselves, while Flemeth and Morrigan do not.

We don't know what Flemeth's or Morrigan's master plans are yet. I personally feel that Flemeth is doing something for the greater good and Morrigan is trying to stop Flemeth without truly understanding her intentions. May be I am wrong. But Flemeth does strike me as a different version of the Illusive man.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't know that about Flemeth. The only person who makes her sound bad is Morrigan. Everything I've actually seen from Flemeth is the opposite, funnily.

 

I don't bundle them together, as if they think alike. It's become a sort of "her word vs mine" type of situation. And so far, Flemeth proves to be cooler, by far.

I mean more everything they do is motivated by self-preservation. Granted this can have them be on the side of the greater good, but in essence it is what is best for them. 

 

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

 

We don't know what Flemeth's or Morrigan's master plans are yet. I personally feel that Flemeth is doing something for the greater good and Morrigan is trying to stop Flemeth without truly understanding her intentions. May be I am wrong. But Flemeth does strike me as a different version of the Illusive man.

Not the best endorsement, considering what TIM did. 

[TheForgottenOne]

Flemeth speaks of Morrigan in DA2 the way a parent would speak about their rebellious teenage daughter. This could possibly mean that Flemeth is exasperated with Morrigan going aainst her without knowing her true intentions.

Hawke: I don't know whether she is your daughter or your enemy.

Flemeth: Neither does she

[Ieldra]

I don't know that about Flemeth. The only person who makes her sound bad is Morrigan. Everything I've actually seen from Flemeth is the opposite, funnily.

 

I don't bundle them together, as if they think alike. It's become a sort of "her word vs mine" type of situation. And so far, Flemeth proves to be cooler, by far.

Cooler, I'll give you that. Also yes, I agree that there's more evidence she'll be helpful and I don't get some people's level of distrust. However, being helpful is not required in order to respect or like someone, and Morrigan, while having her own plans, has done nothing to merit my distrust.

 

In both cases, some people appear to be stuck in a "never trust the mysterious or the unknown" mindset.

 

@ForgottenOne:

Yes, those statements were rather interesting. If anything, it made me even more curious about what this is all about. The Old Gods and Flemeth (and by extension, Morrigan) are mysteries on which I hope DAI will shed some light.

[TheForgottenOne]

TIM wanted to control the Reapers but turned out to be wrong. May be Flemeth is right.

One thing no one knows is what Flemeth wants or what she is doing.

Bah, I'm rambling.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Cooler, I'll give you that. Also yes, I agree that there's more evidence she'll be helpful and I don't get some people's level of distrust. However, being helpful is not required in order to respect or like someone, and Morrigan, while having her own plans, has done nothing to merit my distrust.

 

In both cases, some people appear to be stuck in a "never trust the mysterious or the unknown" mindset.

Trust is easy to destroy, but difficult to build. Morrigan keeping the "A Warden dies when killing the Archdemon" info plus the fact she blackmails you into sleeping with her or she'll leave pretty much destroys my trust in her. 

 

 

TIM wanted to control the Reapers but turned out to be wrong. May be Flemeth is right.

One thing no one knows is what Flemeth wants or what she is doing.

Bah, I'm rambling.

I was actually referring to the stuff he did before he went fully indoctrinated, like despite wanting to protect humans half of his experiments were on human colonies. 

[Ieldra]

That never came across as blackmail to me. I always accepted she had her own plans, and the fact that she was prepared to sleep with Alistair (!!) told me just how important this was to her. In fact, my main Warden (who romanced her) always saw an equal in her, with plans as important in their way as his own. 

[Gervaise]

Let's just clarify here.   What passes from the archdemon on death is more than just "essence" since it will destroy a fully formed soul along with itself if it enters an adult body.   It usually jumps to another darkspawn because they have no soul to replace, just the darkspawn taint for it to latch on to.   The Warden also has darkspawn taint/essence and this will be transmitted to their child without it apparently causing them any physical harm (though we don't know this for certain).    However, it is clear that when the archdemon jumps to the baby, it overwrites/changes/destroys whatever soul was there which is my book is a pretty evil thing to do.   Morrigan doesn't see it that way because she has been raised to a different set of moral values.  In a way it is no longer really the Warden's child but the shell of the Warden's child with another consciousness within it.   Even Alistair seems to get this because if you get him to do the deed, he refers to it as his demon baby.  Actually Morrigan gets it as well because it is exactly what she claimed Flemeth wanted to do with her.   I've never been sure if that was a lie or not since it would have involved one soul overwriting another fully formed soul but clearly the process is contained in the two Grimoires you obtain for her, the first told her what would happen and presumably the second how to do it, and possibly also how to prevent it.

 

Morrigan says she will raise it to respect where it came from, in other words herself and the old god, not necessarily the Warden.   Everything points to the old gods being some form of demon.

[Ieldra]

@Gervaise:

Your conclusions are only valid if you assume that souls carry identity. It was originally how I thought it would work, since it appeared to do so when Riordan described how the archdemon's soul would enter a darkspawn, making the new one a reincarnation. However, what Morrigan says later is much more ambiguous, so I don't know. More to the point though, is the question of how much identity there can be in the first place. My answer was "none that wasn't bound up in the unaffected physical aspect", which is why I considered the ritual acceptable.

 

You say "Morrigan says she will raise it to respect where it came from, in other words herself and the old god, not necessarily the Warden." However, the latter is your interpretation. Also, the DR is most unlike what Morrigan said Flemeth would do to her. Apart from the physical, identity *is* memory and experience, and as opposed to Morrigan, a just-conceived child has none (I usually wouldn't even use the word "child" to describe it at this stage, except that avoiding it is awkward without using modern technical language). It only has potential. This is actually confirmed by the story since the child acts an empty vessel while the old god's soul would destroy the Warden's.

 

If mortals regularly reincarnated, you'd have a point in calling the ritual evil. Since they don't, your objections don't apply.

[Ieldra]

What did you expect if it really deserves the designation "god"? That getting rid of it would be easy? Fortunately, I don't think there's a need for a final death.  

 

I agree that being a Warden sucks, but the shortened lifespan and unpleasant end (by the so-called Calling) has much more to do with it than the archdemon. There are only seven Wardens (maximum) to be affected by that, after all.

[TheForgottenOne]

But will it destroy the soul of the baby? Or will it merge itself (kind of the way Justice does with Anders) so you can't tell where one begins and the other ends. I agree that Archdemons destroy the soul of the Warden when they try to possess them but Morrigan keeps on insisting Old God not Archdemon.

[TheForgottenOne]

It would be wayyyy too creepy if the OGB behaves the way Connor does during the Arl of Redcliffe quest.

[TheForgottenOne]

I've had enough of gods that look like children. No thanks to ME3

[Ieldra]

I've had enough of gods that look like children. No thanks to ME3

I wouldn't mind if not for ME3, actually. I just hope this time there won't be a need for kicking it across its homeground.