86 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

OK there are a few things to consider here.

 

The Old Gods could be normal dragons, but I doubt it. Aside from being male, they also do appear to be more intelligence and have abilities that ordinary dragons don't have. Mainly their song that draws that darkspawn and ability to become Archdemons. The Architect did confirm that Archdmeons are Old Gods, and even pointed out Urthemiel by name as the one he tainted.

 

The Cult of the Old Gods was founded before the Imperium. When Thalsian became the First Priest of Dumat, there were still 3 kingdoms that existed in what would later be Tevinter.

 

We know that the worship of the Old Gods started when the Old Gods appeared to the ancient Tevinter Dreamers in the Fade. World of Thedas is a little confusing about exactly how the timeline goes.Dreamers were the ones who supposedly taught humanity magic from learning it from the Old Gods. In one section it says that Thalsian was the first Dreamer. Yet on the timeline it says that The Old Gods first began whispering to humanity to dreamers long before him. And also the Kingdom of Barindur vanished because people believed they lost favor with Dumat. I interpreted this to mean that Thalsian wasn't the first person to revere Dumat or the Old Gods but he was the first to establish the organized religion devoted to them. And that they taught the nerominians magic before him and he was the first to learn blood magic.

 

One thing that is also worth noting is that the ancient Nerominians worshiped dragons prior to worshiping the Old Gods. Perhaps that means they appeared to them in the Fade in forms they would automatically revere. Although, from the blights we know that there are a bunch of actual sleeping dragons underground. So it's a bit of a puzzle. Maybe they were powerful fade spirits that possessed Dragons.

 

I don't think they are connected to any of the Elven Gods though. Aside from there being fewer of them than the Creators, and more than the Forgotten Ones, their attributes don't seem to match up. And they appeared much later than the elven gods did in the history of Thedosian religion.

 

Although to be honest, I suspect Bioware itself hasn't really decided on exactly what the Elven Gods are. In DA 2 Merrill explicitly states the Dalish have never seen the Fade as the home of their Gods. Yet in World of Thedas, it explicitly says they do. The main thing they have in common with the Old Gods is that their home is supposedly the Golden City. But the Chantry also believed that of the Maker. All the most well known ancient cultures of Thedas seem to see the City in the center of the Fade as the citadel of their gods. But while we don't know exactly what it is, we know the Black City is connected to the taint, so I don't think the Creators are trapped in there.

 

When it comes to their disposition though, I'm inclined to think the Old Gods are probably pretty sinister if they were the chosen beings of worship for the Ancient Imperium. Both Morrigan and the Chant of Light appear to imply they don't want to become Archdemons, but we know they seem to have a connection to the Darkspawn in some way. Because even sleeping Old Gods' songs control the darkspawn, and the blood of tainted Old Gods is more potent than regular darkspawn blood when used in the Joining.

[MrMrPendragon]

Well the Old Gods are somehow connected to the creation of the Veil.

This means 2 things:

1. The Fade didn't exist back then
2. The fade and the physical world existed on the same plane during the "dragon kingdom", and that the Veil somehow separated them. One for place for the living, one place for the spirits.

I don't know why the Old Gods sing to darkspawn (maybe something else is driving the darkspawn to the old gods) nor do I know why Wardens (like Avernus) are drawn to the Black City.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if the Fade is ever changing, why does everything remain equidistant from the Black City? And if the Golden City is really in the fade, does that mean it existed in the physical world before the Veil came up? Or was it created after the Veil was made? And if it was the Maker who imprisoned the Old Gods and created the veil, how come the demons don't know anything about the Maker?

[Samahl na Revas]

Well the Old Gods are somehow connected to the creation of the Veil.

This means 2 things:

1. The Fade didn't exist back then
2. The fade and the physical world existed on the same plane during the "dragon kingdom", and that the Veil somehow separated them. One for place for the living, one place for the spirits.

I don't know why the Old Gods sing to darkspawn (maybe something else is driving the darkspawn to the old gods) nor do I know why Wardens (like Avernus) are drawn to the Black City.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if the Fade is ever changing, why does everything remain equidistant from the Black City? And if the Golden City is really in the fade, does that mean it existed in the physical world before the Veil came up? Or was it created after the Veil was made? And if it was the Maker who imprisoned the Old Gods and created the veil, how come the demons don't know anything about the Maker?

 

According to the chant the black city was created after the Fade near the time when things came into opposition. This can be found in Threnodies.

 

 

As for the old gods I speculate they are the Ancestors of dragons which maybe linked to the grey ones.

 

If we take everything at face value it would seem that some demons are trapped in the fade but still able to possess the inhabitants of Theadas, and others are trapped beyond the Eluvian according to the likes of Marethari and so forth.

 

I will leave the sentence above about the old gods as is but will elaborate here, though I dislike sharing my thoughts. I speculate that the Old dragons are the ancestors of dragons, elder dragons. Whereas the archdemons for lack of a better word and to induce vagueness  are the possessed dragons by elder malevolent spirits. Not abominations.

 

I have another perspective but not enough info to support it at this time, anyway. Not abominations: Why are they sleeping? I speculate that the timeline of their banishment maybe a bit off. As for Andraste, I know she is a fool unless the writers decide to change things. Though, I don't think all the demons trapped beyond the Eluvian if there are any were all bad spirits (Euphemism). I'll go back to lurking, your answer is in Threnodies.

 

tl;dr: your answer is in the first sentence. In Threnodies it is suggested the Black City came after the Fade.

 

Sidenote: Heaven and Fade are used interchangeably, the voice of the maker shook the fade, but the Black City was called forth in Heaven. This however does not mean they are the same it could be a misinterpretation. Just read Threnodies. I'm not checking for grammar or spelling.   

[TheForgottenOne]

We don't know for sure why Andraste did what she did. Somehow I feel that she was fattening up the turkey (Thedas) for Thanksgiving (whatever happens in DA: I).

I find it hard to believe that she did not have anything else in mind except spreading the word of the Maker.

[TheForgottenOne]

the soul does not retain memories, otherwise people would remember past lives....  basically, to me at least, the old god baby will just get whatever fancy schmancy powers an archdemon has and will be normal for the most part...  pending morrigan's parenting of course

Urthemiel is the God of Beauty. I don't think Morrigan was looking for powers there. I thought she was after some answers. But still if Bioware wanted the kid having badass powers they would have made Toth or Razikale someone else lead the Blight in DAO

[TheForgottenOne]

This however does not mean that the kid won't have any powers. I'm saying it might not be the only thing he's getting.

[Gervaise]

Have just been looking at information on Black City and ancient timelines in World of Thedas and it says according to some versions of evens the Old Gods lived in the Black city and started "whispering" to the early magisters from there.   This sounds odd because that would mean the Tevinter Magisters were trying to reach their own gods and as suggested by some of Corypheus' words, it was already black and corrupt before they got there.   Which would mean that the Old Gods were corrupted by the taint before dark spawn ever reached them.   It would also suggest the Black City is an actual location, whose appearance his mirrored in the Fade.   Also seems to tie in with some people's theory that the elluvian in Origins was connected with the Black City, which is what Tamlen talks about seeing and why he gets corrupted.

 

This certainly didn't come from the Chantry because they blame the corruption of the Golden City on the hubris of man.   So what is going on here?  Can anyone throw any light on where this version originated and why the writers should suddenly have thrown in this new version of events?

[Jack Druthers]

Can some one help me with the whole Darkspawn are soulless vessels idea? 

 

Riordan states "The dragon is thus all but immortal. But if the archdemon is slain by a Grey Warden… its essence travels into the Grey Warden, instead. A darkspawn is an empty, soulless vessel, but a Grey Warden is not. The essence of the archdemon is destroyed… and so is the Grey Warden."

 

Darkspawn are described in many ways, but not soulless.  They even go to the lengths of decorating statues, forges and bonfires in what could be described as either reverence or desecration.  They even take the time to make an effigy of a burning woman (twice) with four arms in The Tower of Ishal, at Ostagar.

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Darkspawn

 

Demonic Ichor can be looted from Darkspawn which suggests possession, as with corpses http://dragonage.wik...i/Demonic_Ichor

 

If the PC sneaks ahead of the party in the first encounter on the Anvil of the Void Quest,  just before the wall in front of the cave entrance, a Hurlock can be seen kneeling with hands clasped, in a prayer-like attitude.  With a high enough stealth skill they can stand right behind it.

 

I'm confused about this, on the one hand the Archdemon has an essence/spirit that can be absorbed into another being at the time of death, on the other hand Darkspawn have an ability to find Old Gods and hear them maybe in a telepathic/hive mind way, much the same as lyrium "sings".   Is Riordan mistaken?

 

Edited  - because of another confused situation - When the Warden finds Riordan in Howe's dungeon he says the warden vault was empty of Archdemon blood for the joining.  If the Warden recruits Loghain, he goes through the Joining.  

[Ieldra]

@Jack Druthers:
I think this is a lore inconsistency. They needed an explanation of why a Warden had to die killing the archdemon, and this was what they came up with. At the same time, the consequences of this explanation, the impact on other aspects of the world, were ignored.

May I mention that it's odd nobody noticed this after Awakening, which clearly shows the darkspawn to be more than "empty vessels". I wish they would stop butchering their lore for those damnable heroic sacrifice scenarios at Bioware. Anyway, it's not beyond salvaging since the explanation can be retconned by reinterpreting the mechanism of how the archdemon is killed. Riordan would've been wrong. We have Morrigan's account for her ritual and Riordan's statement.

What we need is something that either the archdemon and the Warden share to justify the mutual destruction, or something that the archdemon, the darkspawn and Morrigan's ritual child share to explain the absence of the mutual destruction. We know that an archdemon dies if killed by a Warden but not if killed by someone without the Taint.

Could it be as simple as.....archdemon blood? The Joining uses a drop of archdemon blood on top of darkspawn blood. So this is shared by the Warden and the archdemon but not the darkspawn or the child. So the condition would be "carries the Taint but no archdemon blood". Could work....when the archdemon reincarnates it would need to recreate its body anyway.

Hmmm...any alternative ideas?

[Gervaise]

I must admit that replaying Awakening has raised all sorts of doubts in my mind.   I'd suggest that possibly what the Devs mean by soul isn't the same was what we think it is.   If you think of soul as "thinking rational mind", which provides some sort of resistance to being overwritten, then that could account for it.   When the Old God jumps to a darkspawn, it takes over the vessel but continues to be tainted and "insane" since it carries on leading the rampage of destruction, when it jumps to a Grey Warden there is a clash of consciousness and they both die, but when it enters the child there is no rational consciousness to resist it but the vessel is not tainted and so the Old God is reborn "sane" and able to reason.  It would be interesting to know in this respect that if one of the "intelligent" dark spawn was on hand and the essence jumped to them, would both be destroyed as with the Grey Warden?

 

Any answers yet on the seat of the Old Gods being the Black City?

[Gervaise]

Just realised my explanation won't work because of what happened in Legacy, if you are of the opinion that Corypheus didn't die but jumped to the nearest tainted vessel.   Perhaps all will be made clearer in Inquisition.   After all the Grey Wardens only think that is the explanation for what happens.   May be there is some alternative explanation of how the mechanics work.   No doubt Flemeth knows.