27 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

Ser Donall clearly states that Eamon fell sick before the King died.

[Mike3207]

Isolde was too obvious a target.

 

Seriously, he wanted to incapacitate Eamon so he couldn't interfere with his plans.

[Corker]

 

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

 

- EDIT: David Gaider's reply to this very question is the second dev post here, circa 2010.  This is the OP and dev replies on the old "Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir" thread.  If there's a post that asserts that "David Gaider said such-and-this about Loghain/Ostagar/Eamon", this is probably the thread they're thinking of.

[Cobra's_back]

Corker,

 

This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

 

What was the showdown? Was it about the divorce? I like your take on this.

[Cobra's_back]

Isolde was too obvious a target.

 

Seriously, he wanted to incapacitate Eamon so he couldn't interfere with his plans.

 

What was his plan?

[cJohnOne]

I'm not going to read a 58 page thread.  Any page of significance?

[Mike3207]

Just wanted to point out that Gaider's response is on page 17 of the thread-the links take you to page 1.Gaider's response is near the bottom page 17.

 

I think he poisoned Eamon in preparation of the upcoming peace negotiations. Eamon would have been on Cailan's side as far as the Orlesian negotiations, so Loghain wanted him out of the picture.

[Corker]

@ghostbusters101, could have been the divorce, or could have been Cailan's increasing friendliness with Orlais.  Whatever that ended with - maybe a trade agreement? Something to do with Orzammar and the Chantry-controlled lyrium trade?  With Orzammar there on the border, and the White Divine in Val Royeaux, that might make sense - Loghain would assume it was a sneaky Orlesian attempt to get Ferelden dependent on them economically.

 

@cJohnOne, the page I linked to is just the original post and then all the dev posts.  It fits on one page.  I don't have strong Loghain opinions, so I was never really a follower of that thread; I just knew it was there and that it contained some Word of God. If there's other forumite postings in it that are especially good or significant, I'm afraid I don't know.

 

EDIT: Okay, edited my original reply to include only the link to the thread, filtered for dev posts.  Scroll past the very long Original Post and there they are.

[Corker]

Just wanted to point out that Gaider's response is on page 17 of the thread-the links take you to page 1.Near the bottom of the page.

 

I think he poisoned Eamon in preparation of the upcoming peace negotiations. Eamon would have been on Cailan's side as far as the Orlesian negotiations, so Loghain wanted him out of the picture.

Wait, it does?  I thought I grabbed the link to the individual reply... I'll try to fix it. Thanks!

 

...looks like the migration to forum.bioware.com broke the ability to link to individual posts?  Let me see if I can find that thread in imported archives... honestly...

 

...Asylumer's profile no longer shows that thread under "Topics." 

[Mike3207]

nm couldn't bring post over to this forum.

 

Go page by page to get to 17. It's how I read it.NM-fixed now.

[Corker]

Used to be, that little "link" link, on the top right of the post, gave you a URL that let you link straight to a post instead of the start of the thread.  I used that, and now it just dumps you at the top of the thread. Because Progress!

 

But the ability to filter for Bioware dev posts still works.  At least, it's working for me in my browser.  This is the filtered page for that thread. 

[Cobra's_back]

So the bottom line was that he didn't want to kill him. He just broke the law several times because he wanted to control the outcome of a meeting. 

[Corker]

A meeting that would establish international policy decisions, but yes.

 

The Ferelden version of the Grand Game is much less subtle than the Orlesian one.  That Redcliffe and Gwaren weren't at war is, I think, a step up for the region.

[TEWR]

I staunchly refuse to accept David Gaider's comment that it happened before Ostagar, because it doesn't fit the timeline. I believe it happened after Ostagar. We hear from many sources at Ostagar that Loghain is the reason the battles have gone so well, and from multiple origins that the king and his forces are already at Ostagar and that there have been some battles already. Moreover, Jowan met Loghain in Denerim. There's no way in hell that Loghain could be at Ostagar, have his men apprehend a mage from a Templar, have him brought to Denerim, ride back to Denerim, meet with him, tell him what to do, and then ride back to Ostagar and have been there for a while before we even get there, when Duncan says in a couple origins that he's planning on leaving immediately for Ostagar.

 

I think David Gaider was suffering from a mindset where he thought he remembered every conceivable minor detail in the game. That's natural. I imagine being a lead writer for the game and watching it get made and trying to get it made will make you kinda not want to play it when it's done. IIRC, he said something similar either here or on his tumblr page, where he just needs to take a break.

 

It'd be understandable if he forgot some other detail that contradicts what he wants to say.

 

I'm more of the mind to take Ser Donall's comments as being indicative of Eamon having fallen ill from some sickness that weakened his immune system and made the poison more potent.

 

The following is purely speculative headcanon-y stuff based on other **** I know, which even I'm not saying I buy into but would at least in theory make sense: Perhaps even the taint was what he fell sick with before Ostagar. He falls ill with the taint from battles with the Darkspawn around Redcliffe -- hell, there was a planned-but-scrapped origin that involved fighting Darkspawn near Redcliffe, though as a commoner -- sometime prior to Ostagar's battle. It isn't that strong to immediately do him in, but it does weaken him, and then the poison is administered to him after Ostagar and renders him comatose. Then Connor goes to the demon and it prevents him from getting worse, and then the Ashes cure Eamon of all his troubles.

 

But again, speculative headcanon-y stuff.

 

Back to the main thing, Ser Donall is the ONLY person who even mentions Eamon being sick prior to the king's death. Not even Isolde brings it up, and she's Eamon's wife and was by him throughout most of it. She was the one who sent knights out on the quest. So what makes Donall, a knight who probably doesn't interact with Eamon that much, somehow the person we should go to for insight? Sure, he mentions it, but just because he says it doesn't mean the two things are related in the sense of "poison".

 

Correlation doesn't imply causation. 

 

IIRC, people said that Eamon grew weaker and thirstier as time went by as a result of the poison.

 

EDIT: Some might say me refusing to accept this particular part of Word of God is silly, but I think when you're developing a game you should at least go into things with the knowledge that you might have forgotten something and so your word isn't as infallible as some might think.

 

The same's true for books and other things. If it contradicts, then I don't think it should be accepted.

[Cobra's_back]

TEWR,

 

"I think David Gaider was suffering from a mindset where he thought he remembered every conceivable minor detail in the game. That's natural. I imagine being a lead writer for the game and watching it get made and trying to get it made will make you kinda not want to play it when it's done. IIRC, he said something similar either here or on his tumblr page, where he just needs to take a break."

 

The problem is that in game it also stated Eamon was poisoned before the King died.

[Nethalf]

I'm not going to read a 58 page thread.  Any page of significance?

If you wanna read the devs posts on the old forum, just add "&lf=8" to every link in the browser (without quotes, of course).

[gottaloveme]

the secret correspondence says that Eamon was trying to persuade Cailan to put Anora aside and take another wife in order to have an heir and secure the throne. One of Bodahn's rumours is that Anora has never become pregnant - apparently a curse for being a commoner.

[rosey1579]

If your warden was a mage: Jowan came running and screaming to loghain before he reached ostagar. Loghain gave him a flask of venom and told him to run to arl Eamon. Jowan runs into Isolde, gives her the flask and she gives it to her husband to drink. She then gets worried because he falls ill and gets Jowan to summon a demon. She chickens out and has jowan tortured while the demon runs off to her son. She laughs evilly in a high pitched orlesian accent. Logaihn then chills with Cailin until he runs away with ser Cauthrian.

 

Or maybe ser Donall was lying, who's to know?

[Douxdel]

If your warden was a mage: Jowan came running and screaming to loghain before he reached ostagar. Loghain gave him a flask of venom and told him to run to arl Eamon. Jowan runs into Isolde, gives her the flask and she gives it to her husband to drink. She then gets worried because he falls ill and gets Jowan to summon a demon. She chickens out and has jowan tortured while the demon runs off to her son. She laughs evilly in a high pitched orlesian accent. Logaihn then chills with Cailin until he runs away with ser Cauthrian.

 

Or maybe ser Donall was lying, who's to know?

 

Yes...yes...let's blame Isolde!  I always hated her...I bet Connor wasn't even Eamon's son...  -glares at Teagan-  I know it was a crisis, but Isolde seemed to fawn over him WAAAY too much (then again, I usually play a female, so that one line always sounds way over protective:  "WHO IZ THIZ WOMAN TEAGAHN?!")...would make sense if Isolde had SOME part in it, however small (even if it was that she was aware of what was happening and she just didn't stop it).  As for Loghain poisoning Eamon, it never really made sense to me...sure Eamon had influence being Cailan's uncle and all, but Loghain was a Teyrn and all...but after I re-played the DLC it made sense with the whole Orlesian Ordeal...

[TEWR]

TEWR,

 

"I think David Gaider was suffering from a mindset where he thought he remembered every conceivable minor detail in the game. That's natural. I imagine being a lead writer for the game and watching it get made and trying to get it made will make you kinda not want to play it when it's done. IIRC, he said something similar either here or on his tumblr page, where he just needs to take a break."

 

The problem is that in game it also stated Eamon was poisoned before the King died.

 

Not to my knowledge it isn't. The only person who mentions Eamon falling ill before the king's death is Donall, and he never says "And it was poison". What he says is that the arl fell sick before the king's death, and what if Loghain counted on that as well. But that's still not enough to say, definitively, the poison happened prior to Ostagar.

 

Only that Eamon fell sick prior to Ostagar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@ghostbusters101, could have been the divorce, or could have been Cailan's increasing friendliness with Orlais.  Whatever that ended with - maybe a trade agreement? Something to do with Orzammar and the Chantry-controlled lyrium trade?  With Orzammar there on the border, and the White Divine in Val Royeaux, that might make sense - Loghain would assume it was a sneaky Orlesian attempt to get Ferelden dependent on them economically.

Loghain's reaction during RtO when he concludes that Cailan intended to divorce Anora heavily implies he had not previously seen that coming, so it wouldn't have been that.

[Douxdel]

Isolade is probably one of the characters that is most easily disliked. BS she's a pious woman. She had Alistair shipped off because of her jealousy. And Alistair was old enough by that time that even if it was a bastard son, Eamon wasn't having a thing to do with her if he wanted to marry an Orlesian woman so close to after the war. If she is a representation of what Orlesian women are like... yeek!

 

I've made comments before about all her actions and there is not one redeemable quality in her beyond that she wants to protect her son, but even that feels a little more like it's about her reputation and magic if you listen to what she says. It's sort of more in the camp of magic evil and she didn't want him branded and maybe even the implication that it would be her being branded too. I've come to wonder about this lately. Yes, she loves her son, but there's ulterior motives or it feels like it during the dialogues. One of them might be that she's a noble and feels above it as well.

 

Ooo...I never thought of it that way...in fact, I always thought that was might be her only redeeming quality - her love for her son.  I am currently playing through with my dwarf noble so I'll have to listen closely to her dialogue when I get to Redcliffe.  

[gottaloveme]

Douxdel - Owen will give you even more goss on Isolde, after all his daughter is the Arlessa's maid. No?