61 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

Mages are not allowed to get married. If you give birth, they take your child away. You have only the First Enchanter as your voice.

 

The City Elf is a second class citizen. Nobles can prey on them because they don’t have a voice in the council. However this can change and does with a certain ending.

 

The Warden is going to turn into a ghoul in 20 years. Our Warden may have experienced an accelerated process??? All we know is the Warden vanished at the end of DA2.

 

Female wardens that have a child have to leave the order. This we find this out in the Dragon Age book “The Calling”.

 

 

What are your thoughts? Who has it the worst and why?

[mousestalker]

Actually mages can get married. The enchanter Wilhelm was married, for example. He even had at least one child whom he helped raise.

The city elves are subject to periodic purges. They also are not supposed to be armed, which means they are mostly defenseless.

[Xilizhra]

It varies. On average, probably mostly city elves.

[Cobra's_back]

Actually mages can get married. The enchanter Wilhelm was married, for example. He even had at least one child whom he helped raise.

The city elves are subject to periodic purges. They also are not supposed to be armed, which means they are mostly defenseless.

 

Good point. Why did Wynne give up her child then? Was Anders Lying? He made the claim he was not allowed to have a family. Could it be that it is just Circle mages that can't have a family? This confuses me a bit. Wilhelm did have a family and wasn't required to live in the tower. 

[Xilizhra]

Good point. Why did Wynne give up her child then? Was Anders Lying? He made the claim he was not allowed to have a family. Could it be that it is just Circle mages that can't have a family? This confuses me a bit. Wilhelm did have a family and wasn't required to live in the tower. 

Wilhelm was able to get some kind of dispensation to leave the Circle and got married afterward. Due to services rendered in the Orlesian rebellion. I think Maric probably leaned on the Chantry.

[Corker]

Certainly not Wardens.  I don't think GURPS even lets you take "Terminal Illness" as a disadvantage if you've got more than 2 years to live.  Lots of people will die of things other than the taint inside of 20-30 years.  It's a downer, but they frankly seem more likely to die a violent death well before then.  (Which is itself a downer, but also a common hazard of the  ruling warrior class.)
 

Good point. Why did Wynne give up her child then? Was Anders Lying? He made the claim he was not allowed to have a family. Could it be that it is just Circle mages that can't have a family? This confuses me a bit. Wilhelm did have a family and wasn't required to live in the tower.

 
Wilhelm was a war hero and a close personal friend of the king.  Also, he had a personal golem. I think he may have had some rules bent on his behalf. 
 
Interestingly, Vaughn derides the idea of an elven wedding in the  CE origin.  Obviously, the Chantry mother officiating over it thinks it's valid.  I tend to think that's just his bigotry talking, but there's an outside possibility that Mother Boann was some sort of equal rights revolutionary.
 
EDIT: Something was niggling at the back of my head concering medieval marriage.  Please excuse the Wikipedia reference, but I think that it's correct:
 
 
 

Marriages were by mutual consent, declaration of intention to marry and upon the subsequent physical union of the parties.The couple would promise verbally to each other that they would be married to each other; the presence of a priest or witnesses was not required for validity. This promise was known as the "verbum." If freely given and made in the present tense (e.g., "I marry you"), it was unquestionably binding; if made in the future tense ("I will marry you"), it would constitute a betrothal.

- Marriage in the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages
 
The theology of Thedas is dodgy at best, and I don't think there's any evidence to support this idea (mmmmmaybe Zevran's "earring proposal"?).  But technically, the people getting married marry each other - the priest is there to solemnize or bless it.
 
There are factors that can render a marriage invalid - e.g., consanguinity (being related), already being married to somebody else.  I suppose the Chantry may have made any and all marriages to mages invalid?  Awfully hard to justify theologically, though - the Circle itself isn't even based on dogma.  Even if popular sentiment is that the Maker hates all mages, IIRC that *isn't* official Chantry teaching, and doctrinal positions ought to square with doctrine.

[Xetykins]

Good point. Why did Wynne give up her child then? Was Anders Lying? He made the claim he was not allowed to have a family. Could it be that it is just Circle mages that can't have a family? This confuses me a bit. Wilhelm did have a family and wasn't required to live in the tower.

I think its usually the circle mages that had to give up their child as its usually the offsprings between mages (or so the chantry would love to believe their templars are holy) therefore chances are the kids are gifted too. Dont forget that wynne did not give up her child. They took him/her away while she was weak from child birth.


And Wilhem I think is higher up in the hierarchy in the circle that he comes and goes and do whatever he pleases. AND he is a man so the chantry/circle probably did not know he was married and have kids.

But to your question. I think the city elves got he worse of the lot.

[Mike3207]

I think Wilhelm was a war hero and helped Maric and  Loghain against the Orlesians. I think it would have helped him get a dispensation to get married from the powers that be.

 

City elves. Mages can achieve glory if they play their cards right, and my Warden has Avernus working to find a cure for the taint.Maybe Morrigan too, depending on what that book is.

[luna1124]

I think city elves have it the worst. They are looked down upon by everyone, including the Dalish.

[Cobra's_back]

I think its usually the circle mages that had to give up their child as its usually the offsprings between mages (or so the chantry would love to believe their templars are holy) therefore chances are the kids are gifted too. Dont forget that wynne did not give up her child. They took him/her away while she was weak from child birth.


And Wilhem I think is higher up in the hierarchy in the circle that he comes and goes and do whatever he pleases. AND he is a man so the chantry/circle probably did not know he was married and have kids.

But to your question. I think the city elves got he worse of the lot.

 

Wynne's child was the offspring of a Templar. This is one of the reason's I couldn't stand the woman. I didn't have a problem with her if she wanted to be a monk. She was hardly that. In her mind she was not responsible for the child.

[Blazomancer]

City elves, because they are more or less like slaves, or servants at best. The circle mages are mostly prisoners. They aren't too far behind in the race though, what with the occasional annulment and real time monitoring by bucketheaded freaks.

[theskymoves]

In Wynne's defense (a first for me, I think) she didn't "give up her child". Her son was taken from her.

 

The banter in question, between Alistair and Wynne, with bolding (mine) for emphasis.

Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.
Alistair: I... didn't know. I'm sorry.

Wynne: It's all right. It was a long time ago. A very long time ago.
Alistair: Couldn't you do something about it?

Wynne: Do what? I was weak from the birthing process and there were... no, there was nothing I could do.

Alistair: Do you think about him?

Wynne: All the time.

 

ETA, ninja'd when I got distracted by stuff... still, I will leave my post visible for the in-game context, unless anyone thinks it should be removed for redundancy.

Modifié par theskymoves, 11 avril 2014 - 04:26 .

[Cobra's_back]

Corker,

 

"Interestingly, Vaughn derides the idea of an elven wedding in the  CE origin.  Obviously, the Chantry mother officiating over it thinks it's valid.  I tend to think that's just his bigotry talking, but there's an outside possibility that Mother Boann was some sort of equal rights revolutionary."

 

I thought she was just being a coward. If you play the male elf, Duncan gives you a sword and everyone is on board with the plan to get the women back. 

 

I thought this was "men in high places do as they wish". The laws are not equally applied to all.

 

Just like the slavery business. Isabela was afraid of being hung as a slaver so she drowned a cargo ship full of elves because she didn't want to be caught with them. This was explained in "Those Who Speak". When Loghain does it the nobles frown but they don't arrest him. You as the warden maybe the only person who makes him pay for it.

[Cobra's_back]

In Wynne's defense (a first for me, I think) she didn't "give up her child". Her son was taken from her.

 

The banter in question, between Alistair and Wynne.

Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.
Alistair: I... didn't know. I'm sorry.

Wynne: It's all right. It was a long time ago. A very long time ago.
Alistair: Couldn't you do something about it?

Wynne: Do what? I was weak from the birthing process and there were... no, there was nothing I could do.

Alistair: Do you think about him?

Wynne: All the time.

 

ETA, ninja'd when I got distracted by stuff... still, I will leave my post visible for the in-game context, unless anyone thinks it should be removed for redundancy.

 

Wow! Thanks so much. That is a horrible situation. The Circle is a prison. I think I would rather be a City Elf. 

[Xetykins]

Wynne's child was the offspring of a Templar. This is one of the reason's I couldn't stand the woman. I didn't have a problem with her if she wanted to be a monk. She was hardly that. In her mind she was not responsible for the child.

I dont remember wynne saying that and I talked to her lot.

[luna1124]

I dont remember wynne saying that and I talked to her lot.

Yes, it is in the banter with Alistair. She had a child, they took him away at birth. It could have been a mages child, not a Templar... She did not say who it was in the banter. I am thinking it is in RTO maybe?

[Xetykins]

Yes, it is in the banter with Alistair. She had a child, they took him away at birth. It could have been a mages child, not a Templar... She did not say who it was in the banter. I am thinking it is in RTO maybe?

Yes, it is in the banter with Alistair. She had a child, they took him away at birth. It could have been a mages child, not a Templar... She did not say who it was in the banter. I am thinking it is in RTO maybe?

I know as I wrote above she did not give up her child.
But I didnt remember her saying she was not responsible for her kid. As ghostbuster pointed out.


Bleg sorry double quote. My phone is screwing up

[Cobra's_back]

I dont remember wynne saying that and I talked to her lot.

 

Sorry it was in the book Asunder. Wynne, and an unknown templar... ... This article contains spoilers for Dragon Age: Asunder. Rhys Dragon age Wiki.

[theskymoves]

Yes, it is in the banter with Alistair. She had a child, they took him away at birth. It could have been a mages child, not a Templar... She did not say who it was in the banter. I am thinking it is in RTO maybe?

 

That her son's father was a Templar is revealed in Asunder, not in DAO. (Page 135, last few 'graphs and into page 136. That's the print edition, because this one is a Luddite.)

 

LOL! Ninja'd again. I either need to post faster or stop posting.  Or stop looking things up before I post. 

Modifié par theskymoves, 11 avril 2014 - 05:04 .

[Cobra's_back]

That her son's father was a Templar is revealed in Asunder, not in DAO. (Page 135, last few 'graphs and into page 136. That's the print edition, because this one is a Luddite.)

 

LOL! Ninja'd again. I either need to post faster or stop posting. 

 

Please don't stop posting. i like reading them .

[Cobra's_back]

They could not have known Wynne's baby had magic? She just gave birth. 

[Corker]

Corker,
 
"Interestingly, Vaughn derides the idea of an elven wedding in the  CE origin.  Obviously, the Chantry mother officiating over it thinks it's valid.  I tend to think that's just his bigotry talking, but there's an outside possibility that Mother Boann was some sort of equal rights revolutionary."
 
I thought she was just being a coward. If you play the male elf, Duncan gives you a sword and everyone is on board with the plan to get the women back.

I'm thinking of the scene where she protests to Vaughn, "My lord, this is a wedding!" and he sneers back that she can play dress-up tea party with her pets if she wants to, but elves are just animals and can't *really* marry. I take it she has other dialogue after the abduction?
 

I thought this was "men in high places do as they wish". The laws are not equally applied to all.

Sure. You'd just mentioned mages' inability to marry as a burden that they bear; I just wanted to mention this side-comment from Vaughn that makes it sound like elves can't properly marry, either. But it's a suspect quote, given that there's a Chantry priest willing to perform the marriage right there. But but but, there's some outside chance that the Chantry priest is some kind of rogue element.

Sorry, dealing with these boards has me in the habit of trying to cover every possible argumentative base before they happen. Makes for muddled posts.
 

Just like the slavery business. Isabela was afraid of being hung as a slaver so she drowned a cargo ship full of elves because she didn't want to be caught with them. This was explained in "Those Who Speak". When Loghain does it the nobles frown but they don't arrest him. You as the warden maybe the only person who makes him pay for it.

Well, they never get the chance to arrest him. He's either pulled into the Wardens (which exempts him from punishment) or he's dead.

And arrrrrgh, don't get me started on "Those Who Speak." 

On Rhys:
Does Asunder ever mention if Rhys's conception was a happy one?

[Cobra's_back]

Corker,

 

Thanks for the insight. 

 

"On Rhys:

Does Asunder ever mention if Rhys's conception was a happy one?"

 

I don't remember. Very good point. 

 

" I just wanted to mention this side-comment from Vaughn that makes it sound like elves can't properly marry, either. "

 

I'm not sure. They haven't officially said they can't. As for Vaughn I see him as someone who doesn't care much about laws. When I played the CE, I did run into married Elves in the Alienage. None of them gave me the impression that their marriage is illegal. 

[Cobra's_back]

Starlitegirlx,

 

"And they aren't going out to deal with darkspawn or having nightmares regularly nor do they know they are going to die in a few decades in  a pretty ghastly way. So wardens definitely have it worse, even more so because they get lied to about what they've signed up to and while they may accept it, it still sucks massively. There's none of that with elves or mages."

 

 

So true and you can't escape the transformation. Mages can try the underground railroad approach like Hawk's dad. The CE can join the Dalish if he/she could prove their worth. 

 

The Warden is going down in a grisly sort of way when the time comes.