164 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

Kidd, what is the difference between identity and gender identity in a society in which concepts of feminity and masculinity don't exist?

Gender is part of identity. That's like asking what the difference is between bananas and berries.

Gender is not inherently tied to femininity and masculinity, as is obvious when you see that there's tons of people who do not at all act according to the rigid gender roles. I'm female, yet I'm wearing trousers at the time of this writing and I'm in a male-dominated industry. I have traits that have traditionally been called both masculine and feminine.

[KainD]

Gender is part of identity. That's like asking what the difference is between bananas and berries.

Gender is not inherently tied to femininity and masculinity, as is obvious when you see that there's tons of people who do not at all act according to the rigid gender roles. I'm female, yet I'm wearing trousers at the time of this writing and I'm in a male-dominated industry. I have traits that have traditionally been called both masculine and feminine.

If gender is a part of the identity then it's not like bananas and berries, it's like apples and apple seeds.

Any trait a person has is a part of their identity. What is the purpose of the word gender in particular?

[Darth Krytie]

If gender is a part of the identity then it's not like bananas and berries, it's like apples and apple seeds.

Any trait a person has is a part of their identity. What is the purpose of the word gender in particular?

 

Well, the word gender is a classification. A person's gender is used to classify them. That's what it is. That's what it's for. To determine which group a person belongs to for the purpose of classification. Well, in the most basic terms, anyhow...it's used to determine which pronouns people use to describe a person.

[Kidd]

If gender is a part of the identity then it's not like bananas and berries, it's like apples and apple seeds.

Good point! You fixed my analogy =D

[KainD]

Alright, one more time guys. My music taste is a part of my identity, so is my political stance and my gender.
If I am asked what is my music taste I describe the music I listen to.
If i am asked what is my political stance I describe my political views.
If I am asked what is my gender, what do I say?

[Grieving Natashina]

Alright, one more time guys. My music taste is a part of my identity, so is my political stance and my gender.
If I am asked what is my music taste I describe the music I listen to.
If i am asked what is my political stance I describe my political views.
If I am asked what is my gender, what do I say?

What do you see yourself as?

[Darth Krytie]

Alright, one more time guys. My music taste is a part of my identity, so is my political stance and my gender.
If I am asked what is my music taste I describe the music I listen to.
If i am asked what is my political stance I describe my political views.
If I am asked what is my gender, what do I say?

 

Whatever gender you identify as. I can't answer it for you. No one else but you can. What do you think of when you think of who you are? Then that's your answer.

[KainD]

Aaand my gender is human. Alright.

[Grieving Natashina]

Whatever gender you identify as. I can't answer it for you. No one else but you can. What do you think of when you think of who you are? Then that's your answer.

We tried, but I don't think he's going to get it.  That or he's missing the point on purpose.  

 

Anyhow, thank you very much Kidd for your feedback!  I feel like I've learned quite a bit from you. 

[KainD]

Let's try it like this: name a few possible answers for the gender.

[Mockingword]

Alright if I woke up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex I would stop calling myself a man and would call myself a woman instead.

Really.

 

Because I'm pretty sure that if I woke up in the body of a woman, I would freak the **** out, and insist that people refer to me as male because that's what I am and always have been, even if I did ****** off some witch.

 

I envy your powers of adaptability.

[Mockingword]

Let's try it like this: name a few possible answers for the gender.

Male.

Female.

Intersex.

Genderqueer.

[Kidd]

Aaand my gender is human. Alright.

Let's try it like this: name a few possible answers for the gender.

I mean no offence when I say this, but I'm starting to feel like you're trying to prove a point rather than reach an understanding. I am sorry if I misunderstand, but this is not the first time you and I have had this conversation.

Genders? Man, woman, both, neither, queer, other. Those are the ones I can come up with off the top of my head. I'm honestly not the person to speak for non-binary-gendered people, so I apologise if I'm screwing this part up something awful.

[Wulfram]

As you state, the sexuality of some characters was left vague so it was open to interpretation by the player—but some people don't want interpretations, they want labels. Bisexuality is inherently indecisive and character-breaking in that case, since the perception would then be that the characters are altering their sexuality...like a light switch that goes from "completely straight" to "completely gay", since those are the only points that exist.

 

 

Or they might just want consistent and coherent world - and thus be fine with them being bisexual, or even something that doesn't fit comfortably under any label, so long as they're consistent through all playthroughs.

[CybAnt1]

Let's try it like this: name a few possible answers for the gender.

 

It depends on what culture you live in.

 

Among the Lakota, they had a gender outsiders called Berdache, but they tended to call themselves winkte, or Two-Spirit. 

 

I'm not sure there is a perfect analogy for them in "American" culture, other than male transgenders (not transsexuals, which is not the same thing).

 

Transgenders act in non-gender-normative ways (for their own culture); a good example of this would be Teena Brandon, who chose to call her - him - himself, Brandon Teena, wear male clothing, and do "boy stuff" at her - his - high school. BTW, her - his - story is documented in the film Boys Don't Cry.

 

http://en.wikipedia....on't_Cry_(film)

 

Brandon Teena/Teena Brandon was played by Hillary Swank. The story has no happy ending. Brandon Teena ended up being raped and murdered by schoolmates.

 

That's why there is the LGB"T" movement -- the "T" people also face discrimination, sometimes even death. 

 

A trans-sexual is someone who actually undergoes surgery/operations to change their secondary sexual characteristics or external primary ones (nobody can alter the primary ones yet, we can't give bio-males a uterus). 

 

Anyway, back to the Lakota:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Two-Spirit

 

Two-spirit people (also two spirit or twospirit) is a modern umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans for gender-variant individuals within their communities. Non-Native anthropologists have historically used the term berdaches /bərˈdæʃɨz/ for individuals who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles in First Nations and Native American tribes, but this term has more recently fallen out of favour.

 

Third and fourth gender roles historically embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. Some tribes consider there to be at least four gender identities: masculine men, feminine men, masculine women, and feminine women. The presence of male two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples."^[1] According to Will Roscoe, male and female two-spirits have been "documented in over 130 North America tribes, in every region of the continent.

 

[end]

 

There are also third and fourth genders among a number of Asian societies. 

 

Oh, and one more thing, anybody who says tolerance for same-sex/same-gender relationships is a new and modern thing that never existed in the past, doesn't:

 

a) know about the Greeks, who we supposedly keep calling the basis for Western civilization

b.) and is ignorant about other cultures historically. 

[KainD]

Right, I got all the answers I needed. Thank you.

Language is flawed very severely, people really need to fix it.

[CybAnt1]

BTW, returning to the concept of sexual orientation, there are a number of people who view it as neither a binary or trinary, but as a kind of continuum, utilizing the Kinsey scale first created by sexologist Alfred Kinsey. 

 

 

The "true" bisexual - which is equally sexually attracted to both sexes/genders - would fall in the middle, but there are some people who are either labeled as or see themselves as bisexual, which might be closer to either the hetero or non-hetero end of the spectrum/continuum.

 

If Leliana likes women more than men, but is willing to be with either, for example, she could be closer to the right end of the spectrum/scale. Possibly at a "4". 

[CybAnt1]

Right, I got all the answers I needed. Thank you.

Language is flawed very severely, people really need to fix it.

 

Oh sure. The lack of a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun is a big one.

 

You can write s/he or hi/r, I guess you can also say "he or she" or "his or her", but yes, English has no third person singular pronoun that doesn't specify a gender. You can write "their" for possessives - like "someone left their book on the desk" - but your grammar schoolmarms are likely to correct you and point out "their" is only plural, not singular. 

 

It is exactly why it can be difficult to write about Brandon Teena/Teena Brandon. S/he was a complex person (but born, in terms of biological sex, a biological female with biological primary and secondary sexual characteristics considered female.) 

 

BTW, this is why I feel a responsibility to inform people about these things. People like Brandon Teena exist (and you, of course), and should be free to live the lives they choose without persecution. 

[KainD]

English has no third person singular pronoun that doesn't specify a gender.

Not only English, and it's just horrible.

[Vandicus]

Kidd, here's a question:

If society was completely open minded about behavior and didn't associate it with biological sex, would words "gender", "feminine" and "masculine" lose meaning and be removed from the dictionary? While words such as "male" would only mean a biological sex, "boy" would mean a young male, and "man" an adult male.

Though this question wasn't originally directed at me,

 

"feminine" and "masculine" are rooted in years of various societies and cultures demanding men and women behave in particular fashions. If not associated with sex, these words would still be associated with the behaviors, ideas, and things they are associated with(though these things sometimes switch, like pink once have being a masculine color; though studies indicate that women do have a bias towards reds, both choosing and being able to see them).

[In Exile]

 

If Leliana likes women more than men, but is willing to be with either, for example, she could be closer to the right end of the spectrum/scale. Possibly at a "4". 

 

That was always my perception of her, assuming the character interpretation where she's attracted to men at all and isn't just building up a persona for the whole of DA:O. 

[Lobos1988]

The thing with sexuality is simple.

 

Everyone is entitled to do in his bedroom what he/she wants to do. I just don't need to know.

 

I am very open minded, and I have no problem with any preferences at all... I just do not like people telling me what they do in their bedroom if I do not ask them to do so. I do not walk around telling everyone I am heterosexual, except maybe I am hit on or asked.

 

Same goes for everyone else in my opinion.

[KainD]

The thing with sexuality is simple.

 

Everyone is entitled to do in his bedroom what he/she wants to do. I just don't need to know.

 

You don't need to know, but your teen gay neighbor that thinks that his mentally ill does. Unfortunately for you, there's no way to not tell you both at once.

[daveliam]

The thing with sexuality is simple.

 

Everyone is entitled to do in his bedroom what he/she wants to do. I just don't need to know.

 

I am very open minded, and I have no problem with any preferences at all... I just do not like people telling me what they do in their bedroom if I do not ask them to do so. I do not walk around telling everyone I am heterosexual, except maybe I am hit on or asked.

 

Same goes for everyone else in my opinion.

 

Well, it's not quite as simple as you are making it.

 

I agree with you fully that no one should be telling you about their sex life if you don't want to know about it, but I have a feeling that this isn't really what you are talking about.

 

You might not go around telling people, "I am heterosexual", but I bet you communicate your heterosexuality in ways that you don't even realize.  For example, it's not uncommon for a person to talk about their spouse.  If a guy says, "Yeah, my wife and I went there on our anniversary.", he is just as much "telling everyone that he is heterosexual" as a guy who says, "Yeah, my husband and I went there on our anniversary." is telling everyone that he's gay.   However, it's usually only the second one who is accused of putting his sexuality in people's faces.

 

I'm not saying that this is what you were saying, exactly, but I am using it as an example of how it's not as "simple" as you might think it is.

[Neon Rising Winter]

The thing with sexuality is simple.

 

Everyone is entitled to do in his bedroom what he/she wants to do. I just don't need to know.

 

I am very open minded, and I have no problem with any preferences at all... I just do not like people telling me what they do in their bedroom if I do not ask them to do so. I do not walk around telling everyone I am heterosexual, except maybe I am hit on or asked.

 

Same goes for everyone else in my opinion.

 

Or if you give your girlfriend a quick hug and a kiss, hold their hand in the street, lean on them in an affectionate way, go out for a romantic meal on Valentine's Day?

 

Bear in mind you're probably less aware of the ways in which you do reveal your sexuality in day to day life, because you've not had to worry about verbal or physical attacks when you do it.