42 réponses à ce sujet

[Agent707]

I'm not going to mention any names, but you all know exactly who I am talking about....

I just don't get this part of the plot - none - what - so - ever.....

I mean, this guy was supposed to be known as a noble and honorable leader... his whole life...

And his daughter???  What was with her???

I replayed the the scene where I finally got to deal with them (both) and it was NEVER revealed WHY they did what they did!!!???

He and his daughter just all of a sudden woke up one day and say... "I think I will be evil!!!"

I REALLY was expecting someone to come out of the closet in the end and be behind all these evil doings...  like some evil mage or something that he (they) "made a deal with".  but NOoooooo...  nothing.

Did anyone else find this part of the plot VERY empty?


I mean.... WHY have a main villan like this that acts all whacked out evil and stuff... and NEVER gives any account to why he turned to such evilness.???  Made absolutely zero sense. 

[Herr Uhl]

Why not mention names?



And Anora has lots of reasons to be cranky.

[Sandtigress]

Neither one of them are evil - they're ruthless and devoted to their country, so they'll do whatever it takes to see the country run the way they think it ought to be run. There's lots of justification for their actions. Personally, I can't stand her, though I understand him better.

[DJ0000]

Logain seemed to be paranoid. He become a hero by defeating Orlais and it was his hatred of them that made him so paranoid. To me he seemed to be losing it, if you get what I mean.

[PunkNouveau13]

Well imo he just thought what he did was justified in his own mind. He believed that the whole blight threat could be solved logically without the help of the Wardens or any other outside influence. And even though everything was crashing down around him, he still believed what he was doing was for "the good of Ferelden" Also Anora was just trying to be a faithful daughter. She didn't want to believe that her father was capable of doing such horrible things.

[Ilvra]

Well, to be honest, if you didn't get any explanations, it's either because you didn't ask the right questions, or because you pre-empted any answers. And I think you can relax about naming names once you get past the title for your post. This is the spoilers forum, after all.



I'm going to hedge a bit by saying that my character had very high persuasion by the time I got to Landsmeet, so I'm not sure how much of this depends on that, but... Anora will be more than happy to discuss Ostagar, her relationship with Cailan, Loghain's motivations, and her own feelings with you, if you ask. The opportunity to speak privately with Loghain is after the Landsmeet, and he can' t tell you much if he's dead; try a playthrough where you leave him alive, if you're really interested in quizzing him. He does have some things to say in his own defense.

[RangerSG]

I think both of their actions make perfect sense if you learn their backstories.



Loghain had all sorts of nasty things happen to him at the hands of the Orlesians. And I'm sure he passed that hatred to Anora.



That said, I don't think she's nearly as bad as some make her out to be. She's Queen, and she's desperate to hold onto what is, at the time, a very tenuous hold to the Throne. Why shouldn't she? She ruled the country the past 5 years, and anyone you talk to would say she did it well. If you think she's ruthless, take a gander at the things Good Queen Beth did to get to and stay in power.



Medieval Queens did not gain or keep their thrones by being nicey-nice.

[Racca12]

Loghain devoted his life to Ferelden, and I believe that he eventually came to see King Cailan as a threat to the country he loved. I think you can tell during the dialog between the two of them that he had been trying to steer the King in a path he thought more prudent, but Cailan would not listen to Loghain's 'wisdom' (I quote it because it's up for debate). I think you can also tell through the dialogs with him before the battle that he had been considering his actions of abandoning the king for a long time. It was clearly weighing on him.



Also, once he had left the king for dead and the grey wardens, he had to move quickly to solidify his position and unite a kingdom that would no doubt be pissed. I think he resorted to desperate measures, most of which were probably not right, but then again, he wasn't planning on having your warden wandering about. If you think about it, he would have won if you hadn't foiled his plans. I know it sounds cliche, but he hadn't calculated wardens surviving, or perhaps he hadn't calculated Morrigan's Mother meddling. But thanks to meddling heroes, the baddie's plan was foiled.



So, from Loghain's point of view, everything he did was necessary and well calculated, for if they hadn't been uncovered by the Warden, he would have gotten what he wanted. But when it all unraveled, Loghain panicked. The Landsmeet was the last stand of a man breaking. His atrocities were so great, that I believe once revealed, he had really no room to speak. It would only be a matter of your mercy whether he lived or died.

[PunkNouveau13]

RangerSG wrote...

I think both of their actions make perfect sense if you learn their backstories.

Loghain had all sorts of nasty things happen to him at the hands of the Orlesians. And I'm sure he passed that hatred to Anora.

That said, I don't think she's nearly as bad as some make her out to be. She's Queen, and she's desperate to hold onto what is, at the time, a very tenuous hold to the Throne. Why shouldn't she? She ruled the country the past 5 years, and anyone you talk to would say she did it well. If you think she's ruthless, take a gander at the things Good Queen Beth did to get to and stay in power.

Medieval Queens did not gain or keep their thrones by being nicey-nice.

Exactally. Plus she just lost her husband; then to learn that his half-brother is out there as a possible threat to everything she's worked for, that would stress anyone out even more

[PunkNouveau13]

sorry double post

Modifié par PunkNouveau13, 22 janvier 2010 - 05:27 .

[Asceiron]

the main villain is a demon, and his problem is, that being underground gives a "low" sort of feeling.

[Agent707]

Sandtigress wrote...

Neither one of them are evil - they're ruthless and devoted to their country, so they'll do whatever it takes to see the country run the way they think it ought to be run. There's lots of justification for their actions. Personally, I can't stand her, though I understand him better.

Wow... are you SERIOUS?

So it is JUSTIFIED to have the King killed off...  and the Gray Wardens killed off...  because you "don't like the way they are running things"... and you're going to do "whatever it takes" to run the lands the way "you think" they ought to be ran?

And this, is not evil?

Thanks for the LOLS

He was a liar, murderer, extortionists...  oh, the laundry list is very long.   This, is, what is known as - evil.

Being evil, doesn't mean you have to be demon possed or something.  HEHE.

Every other sentance out of this mans mouth was a blatant LIE.  This is NOT the trait of some "great leader".

This part of the plot = FAIL.

[RangerSG]

Seems to me he created very strong feelings in you. And he was always meant to be an antagonist. I don't know how you can say "it failed" when it obviously riled you up. You may not 'like' him. But then, he's an antagonist, you're not 'supposed' to like him. But if you bother to study the lore or learn his backstory, you'll learn he has very good reasons for what he does.



The Grey Wardens have played politics before. The Grey Wardens do suggest involving Orlais in the war. And Loghain has no reason to trust Orlais or anything Orlesian.



Once he's in power, he does what he thinks is necessary...much like Duncan does, btw. The only real difference between Loghain and Duncan is that Loghain was wrong about what he was obsessed with then it mattered, and Duncan was right.

[mousestalker]

Also, Cailan was at least contemplating dumping Anora for the Orlesian Empress. Loghain knew about this possibility.

[The_Slayer31]

Now the funny thing for me is I quite liked both Anora and Loghain. I felt that what he did was reprehensible...but I could understand why he did them (even if I wouldn't have done the same thing (I think...after all have never been in that position lol)).



As for Anora, to start with she couldnt believe what her father was doing, and to keep her place she had to seem to support him, after all, hes already had one ruler killed...not hard to add another to that list and blame it on (for example) the orlesians...If you had a high enough persuade and say you will support Anora in the landsmeet she actually turns on him at the end, although she still doesnt want you to kill him...but she still denounces him before the landsmeet...



Personally I thought the story was rather good, imho Well Done Bioware....

[slimboiphatz]

Agent707 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Neither one of them are evil - they're ruthless and devoted to their country, so they'll do whatever it takes to see the country run the way they think it ought to be run. There's lots of justification for their actions. Personally, I can't stand her, though I understand him better.

Wow... are you SERIOUS?

So it is JUSTIFIED to have the King killed off...  and the Gray Wardens killed off...  because you "don't like the way they are running things"... and you're going to do "whatever it takes" to run the lands the way "you think" they ought to be ran?

And this, is not evil?

Thanks for the LOLS

He was a liar, murderer, extortionists...  oh, the laundry list is very long.   This, is, what is known as - evil.

Being evil, doesn't mean you have to be demon possed or something.  HEHE.

Every other sentance out of this mans mouth was a blatant LIE.  This is NOT the trait of some "great leader".

This part of the plot = FAIL.

every leader in the world is a liar, muderer, extortionist, etc. etc., people do what they have to do to see there country be safe or move forward. Logain was not an evil man IMO, he was afraid of the darkspawn and made some choices that were a little querky. But if he had of succeeded with his plan he would of been known as a great leader, not an evil leader.. why.. because he loved ferelden and he would of done anything to keep it safe.

[SurelyForth]

I think Loghain is a cautionary tale for the PC, if they live. When he was young, he accomplished great things that resulted in him being dubbed a hero, given more status than he ever dreamt of having, and being the right hand of a king. Add that to the suffering he and his family went through at the hands of the Orlesians, and you can easily get someone with crippling paranoia and a complex wherein they honestly believe they're the only ones who can "fix things" (as Alistair puts it). He even admits that last part to you, at the end of the game if you save him.

I really and truly appreciate Loghain's character- that I feel justified slaying him just as much as feel justified letting him redeem himself by helping me end the Blight, but not him dying as a hero. The PC who let him live definitely saw what she could become in him, the young adored hero who answers to no one else, but she still blamed him for everything his actions caused her to lose. If I ever give him a "canon" ending, it will be with both of us surviving and remaining with the Wardens, just so we can visit Anora together and rub in how awesome being a Warden is to King Blondie Bitterpants.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:38 .

[RangerSG]

slimboiphatz wrote...

Agent707 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Neither one of them are evil - they're ruthless and devoted to their country, so they'll do whatever it takes to see the country run the way they think it ought to be run. There's lots of justification for their actions. Personally, I can't stand her, though I understand him better.

Wow... are you SERIOUS?

So it is JUSTIFIED to have the King killed off...  and the Gray Wardens killed off...  because you "don't like the way they are running things"... and you're going to do "whatever it takes" to run the lands the way "you think" they ought to be ran?

And this, is not evil?

Thanks for the LOLS

He was a liar, murderer, extortionists...  oh, the laundry list is very long.   This, is, what is known as - evil.

Being evil, doesn't mean you have to be demon possed or something.  HEHE.

Every other sentance out of this mans mouth was a blatant LIE.  This is NOT the trait of some "great leader".

This part of the plot = FAIL.

every leader in the world is a liar, muderer, extortionist, etc. etc., people do what they have to do to see there country be safe or move forward. Logain was not an evil man IMO, he was afraid of the darkspawn and made some choices that were a little querky. But if he had of succeeded with his plan he would of been known as a great leader, not an evil leader.. why.. because he loved ferelden and he would of done anything to keep it safe.

I'll disagree this much...if Loghain's plan had succeeded, Ferelden would be dead and the Blight would've moved on to Orlais. Seeing as his plan was predicated on (among other things) killing the only people who could've stopped the Blight, which he refused to admit was a Blight until it was too late.

But yes, make no bones about it. Loghain is unflaggingly patriotic. And he fulfills the old proverb of patriotism being the virtue of tyrants.

[Grey__Warden]

He's a racist. Simple as.

[slimboiphatz]

RangerSG wrote...

slimboiphatz wrote...

Agent707 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Neither one of them are evil - they're ruthless and devoted to their country, so they'll do whatever it takes to see the country run the way they think it ought to be run. There's lots of justification for their actions. Personally, I can't stand her, though I understand him better.

Wow... are you SERIOUS?

So it is JUSTIFIED to have the King killed off...  and the Gray Wardens killed off...  because you "don't like the way they are running things"... and you're going to do "whatever it takes" to run the lands the way "you think" they ought to be ran?

And this, is not evil?

Thanks for the LOLS

He was a liar, murderer, extortionists...  oh, the laundry list is very long.   This, is, what is known as - evil.

Being evil, doesn't mean you have to be demon possed or something.  HEHE.

Every other sentance out of this mans mouth was a blatant LIE.  This is NOT the trait of some "great leader".

This part of the plot = FAIL.

every leader in the world is a liar, muderer, extortionist, etc. etc., people do what they have to do to see there country be safe or move forward. Logain was not an evil man IMO, he was afraid of the darkspawn and made some choices that were a little querky. But if he had of succeeded with his plan he would of been known as a great leader, not an evil leader.. why.. because he loved ferelden and he would of done anything to keep it safe.

I'll disagree this much...if Loghain's plan had succeeded, Ferelden would be dead and the Blight would've moved on to Orlais. Seeing as his plan was predicated on (among other things) killing the only people who could've stopped the Blight, which he refused to admit was a Blight until it was too late.

But yes, make no bones about it. Loghain is unflaggingly patriotic. And he fulfills the old proverb of patriotism being the virtue of tyrants.

i meant that if logain had succeeded with his plans AND won the blight then he would of been known as a great leader. but that wouldn't of made for a very good game lol

[BroBear Berbil]

Agent707 wrote...

I'm not going to mention any names, but you all know exactly who I am talking about....

I just don't get this part of the plot - none - what - so - ever.....

I mean, this guy was supposed to be known as a noble and honorable leader... his whole life...

And his daughter???  What was with her???

I replayed the the scene where I finally got to deal with them (both) and it was NEVER revealed WHY they did what they did!!!???

He and his daughter just all of a sudden woke up one day and say... "I think I will be evil!!!"

I REALLY was expecting someone to come out of the closet in the end and be behind all these evil doings...  like some evil mage or something that he (they) "made a deal with".  but NOoooooo...  nothing.

Did anyone else find this part of the plot VERY empty?


I mean.... WHY have a main villan like this that acts all whacked out evil and stuff... and NEVER gives any account to why he turned to such evilness.???  Made absolutely zero sense. 

You have a very simplistic view of good and evil. Anora is in no way, shape, or form "evil". She's opportunistic and ambitious but nothing she does constitutes as evil in the entire game - not even her betrayal at the Landsmeet if she goes that route.

Loghain is not black and white either. He was a great man who fell a long way and he had his own form of reasoning and justification for everything he did. You may not agree with him (most don't) but didn't do what he did out of some diabolical malevolance. He does explain his actions, his reasoning behind those actions, and his regrets very clearly as well but you obviously did not choose an option that would allow for those conversations.

[cachx]

RangerSG wrote...
I'll disagree this much...if Loghain's plan had succeeded, Ferelden would be dead and the Blight would've moved on to Orlais. Seeing as his plan was predicated on (among other things) killing the only people who could've stopped the Blight, which he refused to admit was a Blight until it was too late.

You also have to consider the fact that none except the Grey Wardens knew that only a Grey Warden can deliver the final blow to Archie. Loghain incorrectly assumed that he could defeat them by himself.

I really didn't like Loghain as a villain, he was so ineffectual, the civil war exploded in his face, and he managed to do nothing right (except maybe half-killing Eamon) until the Landsmeet, not to mention that the slave trader thing came from nowhere and imo was totally out of character.

His motivations are a bit weak as well. Cailan is portrayed as a bit of an idiot but not enough to kill him off in that way (it was never clear to me if Loghain retreated on purpose to kill Cailan and the wardens, or he withdrew because the battle was already lost, RtO dialog only adds to my confusion). Also, we never see Orlesians in the game, yet Loghain is totally paranoid about them, it would have helped to have some scenes with Orlesians, to present them as a credible threat. (and I should'nt have to read a book to understand that).

That's why I always choose to kill the archdemon, seems to be to only way to give him some meaning, and it's the only situation in which he expresses true regret. 

[SurelyForth]

While not evil, I think Anora is kind of terrible for leaving the PC passed out, badly injured, and at the mercy of a whole group of guards who want her dead. Especially since the whole mission seems like such an incredible set-up.



I also think she's terrible because she refuses to marry Alistair if he kills her father, but doesn't seem to mind that he's the one who's shouting the loudest for Loghain's death. There should be no distinction for her between the two actions, but because she wants the throne badly enough she'll play semantics and let the latter slide.

[BelSirk]

I love the landsmeet ... even your most noble chooice make you feel bad at the end (oh well... i end killing Calehein ) ... That is the best villain one can have on war... not a true evil enemy but a true warrior for his country...

the orlesians were BAD, very bad for 80 years, then come King and Logain and make the impossible beating them ... years later the son of the king don't have ANY problem seeing how asking aids for the orlesians (and don't waiting for all the reinforcment from his own land ) .. and even worse, thanks to the warden's secrets, only the wardens know this is a true blight, it's pretty easy to see how dangerous this new king it's .... and how Logain say: "his death, were made by himself" too bad, Flemeth put her hand on the wardens...

[_- Songlian -]

Agent707 wrote...

I'm not going to mention any names, but you all know exactly who I am talking about....

I just don't get this part of the plot - none - what - so - ever.....

I mean, this guy was supposed to be known as a noble and honorable leader... his whole life...

And his daughter???  What was with her???

I replayed the the scene where I finally got to deal with them (both) and it was NEVER revealed WHY they did what they did!!!???

He and his daughter just all of a sudden woke up one day and say... "I think I will be evil!!!"

 Your post just made my day! Kudos to you, OP.