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[Korvayer]

Loghain stood by his convictions.  He knew the tactics and motives of the Orlesians as well as any in Ferelden could have, and his wisdom in this matter may very well have saved his nation.
 
King Cailan of Ferelden wished to send word to the Orlesians for help in his campaign against the darkspawn. Should he have accepted their aid, Loghain believed that the Orlesians would have jumped on the opportunity to conquer what could have been a severely weakened and vulnerable post-blight Ferelden. He'd made a career out of driving out the Orlesians, and he wasn't about to hand them the keys to the kingdom.

King Cailan was too young to have witnessed the atrocities committed by the Orlesians; Loghain feared that he was far too trusting and naïve.

So, Loghain pulled his own Orlesian invasion, so to speak: he took advantage of a vulnerable Ferelden before the Orlesians were afforded the opportunity to do so. It was an immensely difficult decision on his part, but surely the lesser of two evils, by his reasoning.

Love him or hate him, he did what he believed was best for the future of Ferelden, and he loved King Cailan as he would his own son.

Modifié par Korvayer, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:21 .

[melkathi]

The main villain's problem?

Easy:



He got banished below the earth because people were worshipping him.

And as he lay slumbering, dreaming of the nice festivals they used to have in his honour,

the darkspawn came adigging.

As he was still groggy, mummbling the proverbial "just 5 more minutes..." and "But I don't wanna get up, mum" , they infused him with darkspawness.

And while once he had been a god of beauty, he now was an ugly ugly thing, at the head of an ugly ugly horde.



Does one need more reason?





Ohhh you weren't talking about the Archdemon.



Oops

[JesterSky]

The OP's idea of 'good' and 'evil' is obviously rather limited. Loghain and Anora would not view themselves as evil, though they would likely view the Warden that way. At the same time, the Warden seems to think of Loghain as evil while considering his/her own actions justified, even if they choose to commit atrocities. No normal person goes out one day with the specific purpose of doing evil. They can go out with the intent of doing something immoral, but they will not condemn themselves as evil; often, people will think of ways to justify their actions, even if it only makes sense to themselves.

I mean, do we really think the darkspawn think of themselves as evil? Sure, they're a living plague of death and slaughter, and to us, from our viewpoint, that is evil, but to them what is it? It's their life, their apparent purpose. To them, perhaps WE are the evil ones, and they are the good ones. Surely they don't view themselves as evil, if they view themselves as anything at all.

Therefore, to call Loghain 'evil' is childish; you must consider that in his situation, with his knowledge and experiences, his actions are justified and right. It's all a matter of perspective.

Modifié par JesterSky, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:13 .

[Superkenru]

I honestly agreed with the OP until i picked up the Dragon Age novel: The Stolen Throne, last night. Upon purchasing I understood that it was meant to serve as a prequel, and thought that it would be cool to see exactly how deep the DAO lore went.



Well I'm only 23 pages in, but those 23 pages introduce us to Loghain as a young man, and has COMPLETELY changed my thoughts of him and his motivations. Not sure if anyone would be willing enough to grab the novels, but so far it 's helping me enjoy and appreciate the game on a whole new level.

[Superkenru]

I don't mean to spoil anything, but if you talked to Anora about her father during your playthrough, she gives bits and pieces of how her father grew up and the man that he once was. These nuggets are being fleshed out in the novel and honestly remind me of how LOST treated our introductions to the main cast during the first few seasons. We meet Logahin the metal rocking, 2 faced, warden betraying, greaseball in DAO. In the novels, we are afforded the oppoertunity to see him prior to the tragedies that warped his sense of justice.



Very Cool.

[Superkenru]

*Opportunity*

sorry.

[Viglin]

Superkenru wrote...

I honestly agreed with the OP until i picked up the Dragon Age novel: The Stolen Throne, last night. Upon purchasing I understood that it was meant to serve as a prequel, and thought that it would be cool to see exactly how deep the DAO lore went.

Well I'm only 23 pages in, but those 23 pages introduce us to Loghain as a young man, and has COMPLETELY changed my thoughts of him and his motivations. Not sure if anyone would be willing enough to grab the novels, but so far it 's helping me enjoy and appreciate the game on a whole new level.

Just got both books yesterday, and about 300 pages into Stolen Throne...but your right, 20 pages in you can already see Loghain as the guy you want at your back and leading your army.

But, as a character says later in the book, while not directed about Loghain it fits everyone.....
"will here be the same person years down the road after power grates at him"...or something like that.

I think until youve read the novels and had him as a companion[which lve yet to do but working out], you cant know the real reasons for his actions.

[Solica]

Loghain has this problem that no man is ever good enough for his daughter. Not even the king.

He's also a rabid nationalist, as in likening to a racist. For good (before) and bad (now).

[Bann Duncan]

Solica wrote...

Loghain has this problem that no man is ever good enough for his daughter. Not even the king.
He's also a rabid nationalist, as in likening to a racist. For good (before) and bad (now).

That's a pretty ignorant view. How Loghain sees things is a lot more akin to the view a Polish war hero from WWII might have had if the German army were to come for a hypothetical 'aid' mission in the generation after the war.

Modifié par Bann Duncan, 24 janvier 2010 - 02:54 .

[Sidney]

Bann Duncan wrote...

That's a pretty ignorant view. How Loghain sees things is a lot more akin to the view a Polish war hero from WWII might have had if the German army were to come for a hypothetical 'aid' mission in the generation after the war.

...or how a lot of Eastern Europeans feel about the Russians now.

Loghain, and as a spoiler forum I can say this, has a lot of good grounds for his fears. In all honestly in the core game you get the sense that this Orlesian paranoia is bogus and his distrust of the Warden's is quite frankly stupid - I mean it is like hating Batman or the Jedi, right?

In WK you see that the Warden's are not some neutral and benevolent  all we do is kill Darkspawn group of people. They've rebelled vs the thorne before so Loghain's view of their treachery is reasonable.

In RtO, you find out that Cailin had invited the Orlesians in and that he was getting along with the Orlesian Empress in a very familiar way raising the possibility of setting aside Anora and creating an heir that would unite Orlay and Ferelden.

[Solica]

Bann Duncan wrote...

Solica wrote...

Loghain has this problem that no man is ever good enough for his daughter. Not even the king.
He's also a rabid nationalist, as in likening to a racist. For good (before) and bad (now).

That's a pretty ignorant view. How Loghain sees things is a lot more akin to the view a Polish war hero from WWII might have had if the German army were to come for a hypothetical 'aid' mission in the generation after the war.

Nah, he's a nationalist, alright. And for some personal abstract concept of "Ferelden", that actually doesn't have much to do with the real Ferelden, the people who live there.

As for Polish WWII heroes, they were slaughtered wholesale by Stalin, as suspected western spies, if they returned to Poland after the war. Polish people on the whole have much more problem trusting Soviet/Russia than modern Germany.

Modifié par Solica, 24 janvier 2010 - 03:15 .

[Bann Duncan]

Solica wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

Solica wrote...

Loghain has this problem that no man is ever good enough for his daughter. Not even the king.
He's also a rabid nationalist, as in likening to a racist. For good (before) and bad (now).

That's a pretty ignorant view. How Loghain sees things is a lot more akin to the view a Polish war hero from WWII might have had if the German army were to come for a hypothetical 'aid' mission in the generation after the war.

Nah, he's a nationalist, alright. And for some personal abstract concept of "Ferelden", that actually doesn't have much to do with the real Ferelden, the people who live there.

As for Polish WWII heroes, they were slaughtered wholesale by Stalin, as suspected western spies, if they returned to Poland after the war. Polish people on the whole have much more problem trusting Soviet/Russia than modern Germany.

I should be clear that I'm not referring to anything to do with the second world war besides a country that was invaded by another - the metaphor ends there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Solica wrote...
Nah, he's a nationalist, alright. And for some personal abstract concept of "Ferelden", that actually doesn't have much to do with the real Ferelden, the people who live there.

As for Polish WWII heroes, they were slaughtered wholesale by Stalin, as suspected western spies, if they returned to Poland after the war. Polish people on the whole have much more problem trusting Soviet/Russia than modern Germany.

People say "nationalist" as if it's some kind of insult. All modern Nation-States were built upon nationalism.

As for the Polish example. That's a perfect example. The Russians invaded Poland in 1939, and had invaded Polad several decades before. And in the excuse of liberating Poland from Germany, the Soviets conquered and subjugated it. What does that tell you?
That's what Loghain thought Orlais would do.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

slimboiphatz wrote...
every leader in the world is a liar, muderer, extortionist, etc. etc., people do what they have to do to see there country be safe or move forward. Logain was not an evil man IMO, he was afraid of the darkspawn and made some choices that were a little querky. But if he had of succeeded with his plan he would of been known as a great leader, not an evil leader.. why.. because he loved ferelden and he would of done anything to keep it safe.

If Loghain is not evil, then no man in the human history can be labeled evil.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

slimboiphatz wrote...
every leader in the world is a liar, muderer, extortionist, etc. etc., people do what they have to do to see there country be safe or move forward. Logain was not an evil man IMO, he was afraid of the darkspawn and made some choices that were a little querky. But if he had of succeeded with his plan he would of been known as a great leader, not an evil leader.. why.. because he loved ferelden and he would of done anything to keep it safe.

If Loghain is not evil, then no man in the human history can be labeled evil.

And that's awful. How can I live in a world where I can't villify anyone and show my righteousness. Unthinkable.

[Korvayer]

I think it speaks to the complexity of the character that we come to judge and understand him so differently. If nothing else, this is what I glean from this thread.

Modifié par Korvayer, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[fanman72]

DA the video game alone doesn't give entirely convincing reasons for explaining why Loghain did what he did. To get that you'd really have to read the DA books where both Loghain and Maric are central characters. The thing to take away is that he's not "MUWHAHAHA I AM EVIL", but doing what he believes to be in Fereldan's best interests.

[Derengard]

I think it's actually kind of weird. I don't think it's entirely realistic and the main idea was probably to present a twist and make it as ambiguous as possible. It's alright but not totally convincing, imho. (If only for sacrificing an army to the blight.)

Modifié par Derengard, 25 janvier 2010 - 07:35 .