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Special Snowflake Syndrome


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#51
iOnlySignIn

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I think it's simplistic to simply look at a feature that existed in DA2 and conclude "DA2 wasn't as well received.  Therefore this feature is a bad idea."

 

It matters little if I do or do not think like this (as a matter of fact I don't) - I can not change any of BioWare's future products based on my impression of DA2. But it matters a great deal if BioWare (and EA) think like this.

 

DA2 is full of (what are IMO) great ideas which I fear I will never see again. Among them are the everyman protagonist, the narrative device, and the cliffhanger ending. The fact that I like these features does not matter. The fact that DA2 performed below expectations does, because it actually affects the people who are making and funding DAI.



#52
Wulfram

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I think there's some conflation with the ideas of things like a "Chosen One" and so forth.

 

When I use the term "Special Little Snowflake" to respond to the PC and the party members, it's that they're able to do things and survive things that they really shouldn't be able to do simply because the gameplay and narrative deem it possible.  Moreso the narrative.  It's kind of an example of story/gameplay segregation.

 

Thus the PC not getting infected with the taint isn't them being a special snowflake, because that's something which is expected within the law.  But Sten or Leliana not getting infected is, because they have no such in-universe protection.



#53
Zu Long

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To answer the OP's question, I don't really mind it depending on how it's written. If the special snowflake has a good reason to be special, like the Inquisitor or Warden, powers that were acquired through happenstance or a specific ritual, then it's fine. When it's less justified- only YOU can use this sword, because...um...Destiny said so -then I feel it's poor writing.

 

There is a certain appeal to everyman characters though. Cloud Strife and Ramza Beoulve are two of my favorite characters precisely because there was nothing overtly special about them to start with.



#54
EmissaryofLies

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It greatly depends on how the special snowflake syndrome is implemented.

 

Hawke seemed to be a lie, in that she was ultimately inconsequential and not really special at all, outside of martial ability. 

 

Shepard actually accomplished things, though I would have liked it if other people stepped up to the plate in his absence after The Arrival. It would have been better had more of her companions been as 'powerful' or as important, in the end it only seemed to be Liara who matched Shep in this regard. 



#55
AlanC9

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DA2 is full of (what are IMO) great ideas which I fear I will never see again. Among them are the everyman protagonist, the narrative device, and the cliffhanger ending. The fact that I like these features does not matter. The fact that DA2 performed below expectations does, because it actually affects the people who are making and funding DAI.


This depends on exactly how Bio interprets the (relative) failure of DA2, doesn't it? I'm with you on the substance here, but I'm a bit more sanguine about the future.

#56
AlanC9

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Thus the PC not getting infected with the taint isn't them being a special snowflake, because that's something which is expected within the law.  But Sten or Leliana not getting infected is, because they have no such in-universe protection.


I'd extend this to how apostate mages are treated in both games. Even if Morrigan gets a pass because everyone mistakenly thinks she's a Warden, a mage Hawke's status is handwaved.

#57
In Exile

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I, for one, prefer when the heroes have worked up their way to the top. The Warden is a good example. At the beginning, he or she is just the junior of the Wardens. Only the Human Noble starts in a somehwat advantageous position, since he's still considered a Fereldan noble (the Dwarven Noble lost everything by the end of his or her origin). If they become saviours of the realm is because of their actions, not because of a prophecy or a mysterious power that no one else can have.

 

I agree with your point in general, but I disagree that DA:O does this well. You pretty much work your way up because literally everyone in the org. chart ahead of you died, except for Alistair, who runs so far in the other direction from leadership that you're pretty much Warden Commander of Ferelden by default. 



#58
nihiliste

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Hawke didn't really meet this criteria as he was just a dude who failed at everything he did and played a role in allowing Kirkwall go to ****.   However, I hated playing as Hawke so if the choice is between a special protagonist and one who is useless and uninteresting then I'll take the former 10 times out of 10.



#59
AlanC9

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Hawke didn't really meet this criteria as he was just a dude who failed at everything he did and played a role in allowing Kirkwall go to ****.   However, I hated playing as Hawke so if the choice is between a special protagonist and one who is useless and uninteresting then I'll take the former 10 times out of 10.

 

Hyperbole much?


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#60
In Exile

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Hawke didn't really meet this criteria as he was just a dude who failed at everything he did and played a role in allowing Kirkwall go to ****.   However, I hated playing as Hawke so if the choice is between a special protagonist and one who is useless and uninteresting then I'll take the former 10 times out of 10.

 

Hawke and the Warden were exactly as useful. There's literally no difference between the two except that following the orders of his/her betters and killing everyone worked out great for the Warden but somehow (more realistically) didn't for Hawke. 

 

Seriously, every single main quest for the Warden is (i) go murder these people; (ii) if you murder all of them, suddenly you will have an army with no liabilities! 

 

Just look at your encounter with Loghain. Landsmeet? Irrelevant, because it ends with the Warden beaten up a geriatric man in armour for the sake of Ferelden. It's just more being good at punching people in the face. 


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#61
frankf43

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I have no problem with special snow flakes as long as they are done well. Anyone who likes comic books buys into the idea of special snow flakes.  There is not one single superhero  that does not have some special ability that is unique to them in their universe.



#62
nihiliste

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Hawke and the Warden were exactly as useful. There's literally no difference between the two except that following the orders of his/her betters and killing everyone worked out great for the Warden but somehow (more realistically) didn't for Hawke. 

 

Seriously, every single main quest for the Warden is (i) go murder these people; (ii) if you murder all of them, suddenly you will have an army with no liabilities! 

 

Just look at your encounter with Loghain. Landsmeet? Irrelevant, because it ends with the Warden beaten up a geriatric man in armour for the sake of Ferelden. It's just more being good at punching people in the face. 

 

The main difference being that the Warden actually had the ability to end the blight.  Hawke has the ability to get manipulated into helping Kirkwall fall apart



#63
Chewin

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Not personally a fan of this so called Snowflake Syndrome. It's not that I have anything against my PC being special, but when certain games have characters around me behave like mindless idiots who can't get anything done themselves and constantly adore and are in constant need of my support for no real reason pisses me off.

 

This was my main gripe with DA2. While I liked the concept of Hawke being your "average joe" character so to speak, he was still seen as this very important person and almost every character were idiots who looked up to Hawke for no real reason since he was an idiot character by himself.

 

So nothing wrong with the syndrome, but if a game doesn't get it right in its execution, it will be a problem.


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#64
AlanC9

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The main difference being that the Warden actually had the ability to end the blight.  Hawke has the ability to get manipulated into helping Kirkwall fall apart

 

Or not be manipulated, if you're clever. Kirkwall still falls apart, yep, but Hawke doesn't have to have anything to do with that. Hell, my first time through I fired Anders in chapter 2.

 

I suppose it's accurate to say that Hawke can't stop the war from breaking out, but equating that with failing at everything he tries is nonsense.



#65
In Exile

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The main difference being that the Warden actually had the ability to end the blight.  Hawke has the ability to get manipulated into helping Kirkwall fall apart

 

The Warden's ability to end the Blight is due to plot magic, because the Warden is an unkillable engine of death and all that you have to do to end the blight is kill everything. It comes right back down to the Blight being a problem you can solve with lots of killing, but DA2's problems being problems that the writers decided couldn't be solved with lots of killing. Except for the Arishok, that is, which is a problem that Hawke solves with killing. 


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#66
AlanC9

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In fairness to nihiliste, Hawke does fail at things more often than other Bio characters do; it takes a lot of work for Shepard to fail at anything except the Thessia mission. If you're in it for the power-fantasy, this can be disconcerting.



#67
nihiliste

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Or not be manipulated, if you're clever. Kirkwall still falls apart, yep, but Hawke doesn't have to have anything to do with that. Hell, my first time through I fired Anders in chapter 2.

 

I suppose it's accurate to say that Hawke can't stop the war from breaking out, but equating that with failing at everything he tries is nonsense.

 

- can't stop his sibling from being killed

- can't stop his mother from being killed

- can't stop Bertrand from bringing the idol back

- can't stop Petrice from inciting the Qunari conflict

- can't save the mages even if that's your prerogative since they all turn to blood magic

- if corypheus indeed took on a new body, that's yet another evil in the world made possible by Hawke's presence

 

etc etc

 

Hawke fails in every endeavour because he was written to fail.  I don't care how smart you think you were playing through that game, the options aren't there because of the narrative structure.


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#68
nihiliste

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The Warden's ability to end the Blight is due to plot magic, because the Warden is an unkillable engine of death and all that you have to do to end the blight is kill everything. It comes right back down to the Blight being a problem you can solve with lots of killing, but DA2's problems being problems that the writers decided couldn't be solved with lots of killing. Except for the Arishok, that is, which is a problem that Hawke solves with killing. 

 

Um no, the point is that Warden's can kill the Archdemon and other people can't. 

 

Yeah I agree, the nature of the gameplay is frustrating in that you can't win over any of the factions without fighting your way through trash mobs with your party of four - i.e. there are no non combat solutions offered.  But in DA2, there are neither combat nor noncombat solutions offered, making Hawke ultimately useless



#69
In Exile

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Um no, the point is that Warden's can kill the Archdemon and other people can't. 

 

Yeah I agree, the nature of the gameplay is frustrating in that you can't win over any of the factions without fighting your way through trash mobs with your party of four - i.e. there are no non combat solutions offered.  But in DA2, there are neither combat nor noncombat solutions offered, making Hawke ultimately useless

But DA:O doesn't just have combat solutions. It has a bunch of combat, and then it ends with everything going the protagonists way because you killed enough people. The only difference between DA2 and DA:O is that Hawke can't pick the persuade option to calm Meredith down when Anders goes all nuclear on everyone. 



#70
Sylvius the Mad

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I like any specialness that the PC has to be the result of something that I do.  So if I don't do those things, he stops being special.

 

DAO worked like this.  If I played a character who wasn't heroic and didn't learn relevant skills, then he tended to fail at things and ultimately die.

 

DA2, however, made Hawke obviously special by virtue of the combat mechanics alone.  That's not okay, and a big part of why I didn't enjoy the game.

 

To me, that the PC can succeed where no one else does doesn't make him special.  But if he can succeed where no one else can, that makes him special.  Choices are conscious decisions.  If the PC is special solely by virtue of his choices, then he is not a special snowflake.  He is not the chosen one.  That is my preferred game design.

 

It remains to be seen exactly how DAI will handle this.


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#71
Zu Long

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But DA:O doesn't just have combat solutions. It has a bunch of combat, and then it ends with everything going the protagonists way because you killed enough people. The only difference between DA2 and DA:O is that Hawke can't pick the persuade option to calm Meredith down when Anders goes all nuclear on everyone. 

 

I dunno, you can CHOOSE not to kill the mages in the tower, choose not to kill Eamon's son, choose not to kill the werewolves, choose not to kill Flemeth, choose not to kill Loghain, choose to get the Landsmeet on your side so you have to kill fewer of them. You have quite a few choices that involve NOT killing people. It's true though, that no matter what choices you make, you always kill the Archdemon at the end. The Warden will always succeed.

 

By the same token, Hawke will always fail to stop the mage-templar war. Both are required parts of the story that is being told. Ultimately the question is of which story you prefer- the story of someone striving but falling short, or the story of someone ultimately succeeding.

 

Now within the context of those narratives, the characters are quite comparable. It's certainly true that Hawke was in many ways just as good at killing people as the Warden, I've always liked to imagine that the difference between the two was focus. Hawke had an introverted focus. The world was comprised of Hawke and Hawkes family. Later Hawke's friends and close companions become a kind of surrogate family, but the focus doesn't change. Hawke didn't really care about the well-being of the city of Kirkwall, preferring to hang out with his/her friends at the Hanged Man rather than play politics and shape the course of things. Ultimately this willingness to go where the road takes him/her is what causes Hawke to be unable to succeed. The solutions to Hawke's problems often aren't violence, rather the violence is created as a symptom of the problems Hawke encounters.

 

The big difference between the Warden and Hawke is that for the Warden, violence IS the answer, and in fact, the ONLY answer to the Warden's major problem, the Archdemon. The Warden also takes a hand in involving themselves with the people who set the world on its course. The Warden's problems can be solved with violence many times because the Warden maneuvers it to be so. Thus the Warden's focus, more extroverted and concentrated on the world at large, allows some control of his/her own destiny.

 

I find them both intriguing characters, but I like the Warden better because I feel like Hawke never lived up to the potential he or she showed. The game was advertised as the story of a rise to power, but ultimately it wasn't really. Hawke never really seems to want political power, otherwise he/she would have done more in the third act towards obtaining that goal. Instead, he or she is content to choose either the mage or templar side, rather than seek to take the reigns and seize power his or herself.


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#72
The Baconer

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In this particular case, I like it, because it makes sense how a complete ****ing nutter could come to lead the Inquisition, which will be the case for my first character.



#73
Allan Schumacher

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Thus the PC not getting infected with the taint isn't them being a special snowflake, because that's something which is expected within the law.  But Sten or Leliana not getting infected is, because they have no such in-universe protection.

 

Yep.  We'd have to have made different design decisions if the threat of being tainted by blood was a genuine risk to the party members.



#74
Bob from Accounting

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Gee, it'd be nice if we could use a bit of a more neutral term for this phenomenon.



#75
SwobyJ

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Gee, it'd be nice if we could use a bit of a more neutral term for this phenomenon.

 

Any ideas David?