214 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

Any ideas David?

 

The Chosen One syndrome?

 

I know I'm not David. lol.

[BlueMagitek]

Yep.  We'd have to have made different design decisions if the threat of being tainted by blood was a genuine risk to the party members.

 

Shale, Dog & Ali are now number one companion choices. ~_^

 

Edit:

At least when there's any chance for a Darkspawn Encounter.

[AlanC9]

- can't stop his sibling from being killed

- can't stop his mother from being killed

- can't stop Bertrand from bringing the idol back

- can't stop Petrice from inciting the Qunari conflict

- can't save the mages even if that's your prerogative since they all turn to blood magic

- if corypheus indeed took on a new body, that's yet another evil in the world made possible by Hawke's presence

 

etc etc

 

Hawke fails in every endeavour because he was written to fail.  I don't care how smart you think you were playing through that game, the options aren't there because of the narrative structure.

 

So when you say "every" you mean "just the ones nihiliste is putting in his list," eh? We both know you're leaving out any goal that Hawke succeeds at.

 

It's OK to not like stories where the PC doesn't succeed at 95% of the things he attempts, but be honest about it.

[KainD]

 But if you do like them what makes them engaging to you? 

 

I want to be the very best, like no one ever was.

[AlanC9]

 

DAO worked like this.  If I played a character who wasn't heroic and didn't learn relevant skills, then he tended to fail at things and ultimately die.

 

DA2, however, made Hawke obviously special by virtue of the combat mechanics alone.  That's not okay, and a big part of why I didn't enjoy the game.

 

I don't quite follow your meaning here. In DAO your PC won't die any differently than in DA2 (US ending excepted, but that has nothing to do with the Warden's skills and heroism.) Unless you mean that DA2 is much harder to handle if the companions are doing all the fighting?

 

I agree that the main special thing about Hawke is combat prowess, though I'd add the ability to attract highly-competent associates. But this works for the particular story. Hawke wins her fortune by fighting his way out of Bartrand's trap, she becomes Champion by defeating the Arishok, etc.

[AlanC9]

Hawke didn't really care about the well-being of the city of Kirkwall, preferring to hang out with his/her friends at the Hanged Man rather than play politics and shape the course of things. Ultimately this willingness to go where the road takes him/her is what causes Hawke to be unable to succeed. The solutions to Hawke's problems often aren't violence, rather the violence is created as a symptom of the problems Hawke encounters.

 

Interesting interpretation. For my Hawkes, it's more accurate to say that the problem is a lack of skill and opportunity rather than a lack of interest. 

[KaiserShep]

 Hawke didn't really care about the well-being of the city of Kirkwall, preferring to hang out with his/her friends at the Hanged Man rather than play politics and shape the course of things.

Sounds like a character after my own heart.

[Wulfram]

So when you say "every" you mean "just the ones nihiliste is putting in his list," eh? We both know you're leaving out any goal that Hawke succeeds at.

 

It's OK to not like stories where the PC doesn't succeed at 95% of the things he attempts, but be honest about it.

 

Let's look at the main quests in Act 2 and 3 - Act 1 is better for Hawke, aside perhaps from the ending.  Pro-mage and anti-petrice - it's fair to say that a character taking opposite positions would be more satisfied with some of the outcomes, though they aren't very different.

 

Blackpowder Courtesy - failed, poison gas is released

Offered and Lost - failed, Qunari are killed

Following the Qun - failed, dead Saemus

To catch a thief - failed, Isabela scarpers with it

Demands of the Qun - Success!  But necessary because of Hawke's previous failures

 

Prime Suspect - Objective: investigate a suspect in the murders - mild success, but mostly a lead in

All that remains - Objective: rescue Leanda - failed, dead Leandra

 

On the loose - mixed.  Emil is a clear success, Evelina is fairly neutral since you have to kill her but with limited collateral damage, Huon Hawke helps get his wife killed.

Best Served Cold - failed.  Hawke ends up slaughtering a bunch of potential allies

Last Straw - failed.  Circle falls to Templars.

 

Overall W2 D1 L7  or 3-2-8 if you separate out the parts of On the loose

 

Hawke does better at side and companion quests, but it's hard for them to make up for the main quests

[Blackrising]

Depends on whether I like the main character's personality or not. If the PC annoys me anyway, them being a special snowflake will probably make me rage. That has never happened in a Bioware game, though, considering I have a lot of control over what my character is like.

So yeah, I guess I like being a special little snowflake. I'm already an ordinary someone in real life, so why restrict myself in a fantasy game? Lemme have my power fantasy.

[Zu Long]

Interesting interpretation. For my Hawkes, it's more accurate to say that the problem is a lack of skill and opportunity rather than a lack of interest. 

 

I would argue that especially after the events that made Hawke Champion, he/she had the perfect opportunity. The populace was leaderless, he/she was the hero of the hour. Had he/she truly wanted to it seems like it would have been easy to rally the other nobles and commoners to his/her side politically, perhaps even gotten Elthina's assistance, creating a crucial political counterweight against Meredith. Instead he/she allows Meredith to keep the position of Viscount vacant, and the city remained under martial law.

 

I realize that this is a function of the story, but we must examine Hawke the character by the actions he or she actually can take, not the ones we might wish Hawke could have taken. We are presented no evidence that, in the three years since the death of the Viscount, Hawke has made any attempt to maneuver politically. We have to conclude from this that Hawke just wasn't interested in doing so.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't quite follow your meaning here. In DAO your PC won't die any differently than in DA2 (US ending excepted, but that has nothing to do with the Warden's skills and heroism.) Unless you mean that DA2 is much harder to handle if the companions are doing all the fighting?
 

No, I mean that Hawke is special by virtue of the rules that govern him. You cannot turn Hawke into an ordinary or non-heroic person just by having him behave as one.

But you can with the Warden.

I agree that the main special thing about Hawke is combat prowess, though I'd add the ability to attract highly-competent associates. But this works for the particular story. Hawke wins her fortune by fighting his way out of Bartrand's trap, she becomes Champion by defeating the Arishok, etc.

You're presupposing success. I do not accept that any story exists until I play through it. Before Hawke dpes those things, why is she special?

[Bob from Accounting]

No, I mean that Hawke is special by virtue of the rules that govern him. You cannot turn Hawke into an ordinary or non-heroic person just by having him behave as one.

But you can with the Warden.

 

And how is that, exactly?
 

[AlanC9]

I would argue that especially after the events that made Hawke Champion, he/she had the perfect opportunity. The populace was leaderless, he/she was the hero of the hour. Had he/she truly wanted to it seems like it would have been easy to rally the other nobles and commoners to his/her side politically, perhaps even gotten Elthina's assistance, creating a crucial political counterweight against Meredith. Instead he/she allows Meredith to keep the position of Viscount vacant, and the city remained under martial law.

 

I realize that this is a function of the story, but we must examine Hawke the character by the actions he or she actually can take, not the ones we might wish Hawke could have taken. We are presented no evidence that, in the three years since the death of the Viscount, Hawke has made any attempt to maneuver politically. We have to conclude from this that Hawke just wasn't interested in doing so.

 

But by the actions Hawke actually can take, there isn't anything Hawke can do. You can try some of these things in Chapter 3, in fact.

 

You're supposing a set of possible actions that we don't see and then making assumptions based upon that presupposition. That's your right since we don't see those years onscreen, but I don't see how the argument has any force.

[AlanC9]

No, I mean that Hawke is special by virtue of the rules that govern him. You cannot turn Hawke into an ordinary or non-heroic person just by having him behave as one.

 

.....

But you can with the Warden.
You're presupposing success. I do not accept that any story exists until I play through it. Before Hawke dpes those things, why is she special?

 

 

What's special about the rules governing Hawke? Different specialization trees from the companions and some Fade-granted attribute points, but that's all I see.

 

As for the second point, there's nothing special about Hawke except the success and the skill which brought that success. So at the beginning of act 1 Hawke's not special, and at the beginning of act 3 Hawke is pretty special with more special on the way. I'm not presupposing success, merely looking further down the timeline. A Hawke who isn't proficient in combat doesn't exist in act 3 since any such Hawke is simply dead. Just as a non-proficient Warden would be by the end of DAO. So what's the problem, again?

[Chiramu]

The main character can have some special traits that only they can use, but if that character is made OP, god-mode like in RP then the special snowflake syndrome is complete.

 

I don't think you can call it a syndrome just because one character has an ability that no one else can use. Like in Naruto, the Uchiha bloodline, it never makes you hate the character. 

 

As long as the character is well written then there is nothing to fear. It would be harder to write multiple personalities for a character like what had to be done in Dragon Age to appeal to a wider audience, but for a character that doesn't require this it shouldn't ruin their personality one bit. Unless you KEPT giving that snowflake more and more throughout the story... That is irritating.

[Examurai]

Let's look at the main quests in Act 2 and 3 - Act 1 is better for Hawke, aside perhaps from the ending.  Pro-mage and anti-petrice - it's fair to say that a character taking opposite positions would be more satisfied with some of the outcomes, though they aren't very different.

 

Blackpowder Courtesy - failed, poison gas is released

Offered and Lost - failed, Qunari are killed

Following the Qun - failed, dead Saemus

To catch a thief - failed, Isabela scarpers with it

Demands of the Qun - Success!  But necessary because of Hawke's previous failures

 

Prime Suspect - Objective: investigate a suspect in the murders - mild success, but mostly a lead in

All that remains - Objective: rescue Leanda - failed, dead Leandra

 

On the loose - mixed.  Emil is a clear success, Evelina is fairly neutral since you have to kill her but with limited collateral damage, Huon Hawke helps get his wife killed.

Best Served Cold - failed.  Hawke ends up slaughtering a bunch of potential allies

Last Straw - failed.  Circle falls to Templars.

 

Overall W2 D1 L7  or 3-2-8 if you separate out the parts of On the loose

 

Hawke does better at side and companion quests, but it's hard for them to make up for the main quests

 

Meh... Hawke maybe a failure, but in the end of the day, given all those psychopaths and extremists, I don't see how anyone else in-game universe could equal or do better. Hawke just got the short end of the stick when it came to their turn in trying to save the world.  

[nihiliste]

So when you say "every" you mean "just the ones nihiliste is putting in his list," eh? We both know you're leaving out any goal that Hawke succeeds at.

 

It's OK to not like stories where the PC doesn't succeed at 95% of the things he attempts, but be honest about it.

 

I haven't played the game since it came out, other than going back to play Legacy.  Name some conflicts that are actually important to the overall narrative that Hawke resolves - perhaps I don't remember but my honest recollection was there were pretty much no meaningful ones.  Given the nature of the framed narrative, everything important is already predetermined.  He's at the best of times a bystander and at worst an active contributor to Kirkwall's downfall.

 

And yes, while its not about always succeeding, there's no point playing a game where you have no agency - why wouldn't I just read a book or watch a film for a much better narrative or visual experience respectively in that case?

[Zu Long]

But by the actions Hawke actually can take, there isn't anything Hawke can do. You can try some of these things in Chapter 3, in fact.

 

You're supposing a set of possible actions that we don't see and then making assumptions based upon that presupposition. That's your right since we don't see those years onscreen, but I don't see how the argument has any force.

 

And by the token that no one acts as if Hawke has ever tried to do any of this before, we can suppose that Hawke didn't try previously. I'm definitely making assumptions and extrapolating, but they're based on the actions and reactions of the characters that we DO see. In the end, it's just my interpretation of the available facts. You are, of course, free to disagree.

[Navasha]

Generally, the best stories are the ones where the main character IS a special snowflake, but doesn't start out knowing that.   

 

Luke Skywalker, for instance, was a whiny farm boy in the beginning.   However, his abilities with the force and his bloodline were discovered throughout the story.

 

There are only a handful of great stories where the main character has little to set them apart from the crowds.   Frodo, might be the only main character in an epic tale who doesn't have nearly the abilities of those he meets.   Though, even he had an exceptional willpower. 

[AlanC9]

And by the token that no one acts as if Hawke has ever tried to do any of this before, we can suppose that Hawke didn't try previously. I'm definitely making assumptions and extrapolating, but they're based on the actions and reactions of the characters that we DO see. In the end, it's just my interpretation of the available facts. You are, of course, free to disagree.

Sure. My assumption is that Hawke did try to, for instance, sound out Elthina and Cullen in the interval, and got exactly as far with them in the interval between acts as she got in act 3. But mileages will vary.

[AlanC9]

I haven't played the game since it came out, other than going back to play Legacy.  Name some conflicts that are actually important to the overall narrative that Hawke resolves - perhaps I don't remember but my honest recollection was there were pretty much no meaningful ones.  Given the nature of the framed narrative, everything important is already predetermined.  He's at the best of times a bystander and at worst an active contributor to Kirkwall's downfall.

This is a much more accurate way to describe the situation. Hawke can accomplish many things, but Hawke can't change the ultimate fate of Kirkwall, and thus the fate of Thedas. As the frame makes clear, Cassandra's got the wrong idea about Hawke's responsibility for events.

But I'm not sure I'd use "the overall narrative" the way you did. isn't Hawke's story the narrative through-line here?

[Sidney]

The whole point of the game is that Hawke isn't "the man". People arguing this as a flaw missed the whole point truthfully. I know in that the savior of the world, schlep into Demi-god trope is present in so, so, so many games it seems like a birthright in an RPG but dear god they didn't try to re-do that line again. It was, to me, the most redeeming thing about the game. Hawke is a guy. He is a guy who tries hard, he makes his own choices but failure can happen and often does. The world isn't dead waiting for the chosen hero to do something to move forward other people are doing things and messing things up. The hero can't always save everyone, he has limits. That feeling is something I want more of where it doesn't feel like the world is waiting for the Hegelian figure to come romping through it.

[nihiliste]

The whole point of the game is that Hawke isn't "the man". People arguing this as a flaw missed the whole point truthfully. I know in that the savior of the world, schlep into Demi-god trope is present in so, so, so many games it seems like a birthright in an RPG but dear god they didn't try to re-do that line again. It was, to me, the most redeeming thing about the game. Hawke is a guy. He is a guy who tries hard, he makes his own choices but failure can happen and often does. The world isn't dead waiting for the chosen hero to do something to move forward other people are doing things and messing things up. The hero can't always save everyone, he has limits. That feeling is something I want more of where it doesn't feel like the world is waiting for the Hegelian figure to come romping through it.

 

I'm arguing in a thread about characters that are special snowflakes that the time we played a character who was more or less an ordinary guy who inevitably fails to resolve any of the presented conflicts resulted in a game with no player agency.  If we play another game with a character who is overall not at all special, I'd like to have some ability to affect the game world.  If every choice you make in an RPG is futile, then there's not really much room for roleplay.

[nihiliste]

This is a much more accurate way to describe the situation. Hawke can accomplish many things, but Hawke can't change the ultimate fate of Kirkwall, and thus the fate of Thedas. As the frame makes clear, Cassandra's got the wrong idea about Hawke's responsibility for events.

But I'm not sure I'd use "the overall narrative" the way you did. isn't Hawke's story the narrative through-line here?

 

Sure Hawke can accomplish many things if by many you mean killing some random bandits or blood mages - I don't consider that useful or intriguing in any way.  But since he can't affect anything meaningful in the game world, I don't really see the motivation for playing a game built around this type of character.  Is the next step down to play an innkeeper and have him watch as important people come through his bar and the game's story progresses along around him?