214 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

- can't stop his sibling from being killed

- can't stop his mother from being killed

- can't stop Bertrand from bringing the idol back

- can't stop Petrice from inciting the Qunari conflict

- can't save the mages even if that's your prerogative since they all turn to blood magic

- if corypheus indeed took on a new body, that's yet another evil in the world made possible by Hawke's presence

 

etc etc

 

Hawke fails in every endeavour because he was written to fail.  I don't care how smart you think you were playing through that game, the options aren't there because of the narrative structure.

 

I don't think those qualify. The nature of "failure" is important.

 

After all, a character can only act of thing he knows and can REASONABLY respond to.

Can't save his mother or sister?

Shep can't save BOTH Kaidan and Ashley. So what?

 

Can't stop Bertrand? You got locked deep underground behind massive stone doors. The very fact you escaped is a huge feat and Betrand planned for you to die. So you SUCCEEDED in escaping.

 

 

 

At the end of hte day, if a plot doesn't want you to stop someone, you never will.

But that in itself is not failure. The nature of why matters.
 

[Allan Schumacher]

But since he can't affect anything meaningful in the game world

 

Doesn't Hawke stopping the Qunari uprising, reestablishing his family's position in Kirkwall, and so forth count as accomplishing something meaningful?  Or is it more that you're referring to there's no real divergence to these events?

[SwobyJ]

"Doing something meaningful" is pretty subjective.

 

-Sometimes it involves successfully opposing something, winning a conflict, uniting others, being good at your vocation, fighting for freedom.

-Sometimes it involves successfully preserving something, calming a conflict, making friendship with others, being ethically stalwart, fighting for law.

-Sometimes it involves successfully creating something, ending a conflict, making peace with others, making the world a better place to exist in, fighting for the future.

 

Hawke did the best he could at the first one.

The plot suggested that he just wasn't going to be as good at the other two. We find meaning in a lot of things. If you don't find the first things as meaningful, that's okay. I normally don't as well.

[Examurai]

And they're far less vulnerable to friendly fire.

I'm not claiming Hawke is better, merely exceptional. And I don't know whether Hawke ever has the opportunity to fight one of his companions, but if he does I'm confident the rules contimue to treat him differently from his opponent.

Nope, the rule doesn't apply differently when fighting a companion. The quest Night Terror is evidence of this. 

[Wulfram]

Doesn't Hawke stopping the Qunari uprising, reestablishing his family's position in Kirkwall, and so forth count as accomplishing something meaningful?  Or is it more that you're referring to there's no real divergence to these events?

 

Well, the first it seems like Meredith would have had it covered.  The second seems kind of meaningless when the family is all disappeared, dead, a warden, a templar or Gamlen

[Darth Krytie]

Nope, the rule doesn't apply differently when fighting a companion. The quest Night Terror is evidence of this. 

 

Night Terror. Oh, god. Yeah. If I don't unequip Isabela before going through to the Desire Demon, she usually can one or two hit kill me. I love the way I spec her, but man...to turn it against me sucks.

[Examurai]

Night Terror. Oh, god. Yeah. If I don't unequip Isabela before going through to the Desire Demon, she usually can one or two hit kill me. I love the way I spec her, but man...to turn it against me sucks.

Aveline was the worst for me, especially if i'm a mage. Now I truly understand the terror of a brick wall charging at me. 

[ziloe]

Doesn't Hawke stopping the Qunari uprising, reestablishing his family's position in Kirkwall, and so forth count as accomplishing something meaningful?  Or is it more that you're referring to there's no real divergence to these events?

As nice as they are, that lack of divergence pulls me away from wanting to replay it, as there is very little that I haven't already seen. Where as, with DA:O, while certain aspects of the game were the same, I felt I had many more options to choose from, and perhaps that's where the illusion of choice comes in.

Perhaps if Hawke could have had an option in the story where they could say "Screw it, I'm going home," and it led you on an entirely new path, it would have added a little more spice to the story. Because when I sided with the mages, and Orsino got desperate, all it did was make me mad that I couldn't do exactly that.

[wetnasty]

i'm just seconding a few other people by saying "special snowflake" is usually used ironically... people thinking they're the only ones who are unique and individual when in reality, all snowflakes are different, thus there really not being anything special about said person anyway (and there usually is someone who is extremely similar). 

[drake heath]

What do you mean by "special" exactly?

 

Do you mean some prophetic hero, or Space Jesus?

 

Or do you mean someone who isn't just an average nobody with nothing particularly interesting about them?

 

Because if you look at say, DAO, the Warden wasn't a prophesied hero, or Space Jesus, they were someone thrusted into a situation and ended up competent.

 

But the Warden could have been a Dwarven prince, or the son of the third most powerful man in the kingdom, or a Dalish elf, people who aren't exactly nobodies.

[Dabrikishaw]

Nothing against them.

[In Exile]

And they're far less vulnerable to friendly fire.

I'm not claiming Hawke is better, merely exceptional. And I don't know whether Hawke ever has the opportunity to fight one of his companions, but if he does I'm confident the rules contimue to treat him differently from his opponent.

By that standard so is the Warden. You are openly recognized as such in the origin and by Duncan.

[Sylvius the Mad]

By that standard so is the Warden. You are openly recognized as such in the origin and by Duncan.

Mechanically?  I don't find the testimony of NPCs, in and of itself, persuasive.

[In Exile]

Mechanically? I don't find the testimony of NPCs, in and of itself, persuasive.

Like I always say - the problem with that standard is that it requires you to reject all objective indicia of reality that you see in-game. So for example that Teagan isn't actually an elf with mind control powers.

[Medhia_Nox]

I think to tell a meaningful story that isn't part of a special snowflake character - the story must revolve around the extraordinary expression of ordinary circumstances.

 

 

Ordinary circumstances must be what the average person "could" face in any given day - most fantasy "events" simply could never fall into those categories.

 

I believe, however, it would be ignorant to say that this is because of "magic" or "magical elements". 

 

One need only replace the terrorizing dragon - with the terrorizing dog.  One need only replace the vanquishing of evil Dark Lord - with the perserverance and victory over of particularly cruel school yard bully. 

 

In fact - I think the relevance of most fantasy tales are diminished by too much reliance on the fantastical bereft of allegory.

 

Had Hawke's story been about the flight from Lothering - the trip to Kirkwall - the struggle to maintain his familial relationships while he navigates the factions of Kirkwall and his eventual has a family, who witnesses Ander's events, and forces Hawke to save his family from the mad wizard's terrorism... I think that would have been a down to earth story worthy of playing through.  A man struggling to be a man. 

 

Instead - we have to slaughter big powerful baddies - and see explosions - and fight a hundred million opponents and have ludicrous adventures no normal human (even on Thedas) would like ever be able to relate to. 

 

I know this is entertainment - and therefore these elements must be present, but I think they get in the way of truly diminishing the "special snowflake" aspect of the PC.

[AlanC9]

And they're far less vulnerable to friendly fire.
I'm not claiming Hawke is better, merely exceptional. And I don't know whether Hawke ever has the opportunity to fight one of his companions, but if he does I'm confident the rules contimue to treat him differently from his opponent.

My point was that it's a mistake to say "Hawke" when you actually mean "the player's side." Hawke is not unique.

Are you arguing that Isabela, Merrill, Anders, Aveline, Fenris, Varric, Carver, Bethany, and Sebastian are also special snowflakes?

[AlanC9]

Perhaps if Hawke could have had an option in the story where they could say "Screw it, I'm going home," and it led you on an entirely new path, it would have added a little more spice to the story. Because when I sided with the mages, and Orsino got desperate, all it did was make me mad that I couldn't do exactly that.

Quibble: by that point in the story, it's too late to run out. The time for Hawke to slip away is before going to the Gallows

[Sylvius the Mad]

Like I always say - the problem with that standard is that it requires you to reject all objective indicia of reality that you see in-game. So for example that Teagan isn't actually an elf with mind control powers.

Just like the real world.

 

I don't believe there are fairies in my garden, but nor do I believe that there are not.  Either position is foolish.  But since the presence or absence of fairies has no apparent consequence, I don't care which is true.  So why would I bother holding an opinion on the subject?

 

I similarly don't see why your objection has any weight.  Should it matter to me, the player, whether Teagan is an elf with mind-control powers?  Whether he is or is not, his behaviour doesn't change.  Nor does my character's opinion of him.  Whether I think Teagan may or may not be an elf has no bearing on my character's opinion of him.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My point was that it's a mistake to say "Hawke" when you actually mean "the player's side." Hawke is not unique.

Are you arguing that Isabela, Merrill, Anders, Aveline, Fenris, Varric, Carver, Bethany, and Sebastian are also special snowflakes?

They demonstrably are.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't believe there are fairies in my garden, but nor do I believe that there are not.  Either position is foolish.

 

Is that right?

 

The basic laws of probability dictate otherwise.

[AlanC9]

They demonstrably are.

OK. Then you always meant all the companions rather than Hawke in particular.

I chalk this up to gameplay/story segregation, myself.

[Giggles_Manically]

As long as they properly explain how the Inquisitor does what they do I don't care to much. 

 

"You are the chosen one destined to bring balance to the force!"

"That is Star Wars"
"Uhm...you are the foretold one come to stop Alduin?"
"Skyim buddy"
"Only you can stop forest fires?"

" "

[Sylvius the Mad]

Is that right?

 

The basic laws of probability dictate otherwise.

Probability and possibility are different things.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I chalk this up to gameplay/story segregation, myself.

Any such segregation necessarily breaks roleplaying.

[Bob from Accounting]

Probability and possibility are different things.

 

That they are. But it's by no means foolish to believe in something because it's not certain.