129 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

Because the name of the actual spell comes up on a tooltip when you hover over the icon on the quick bar. My visual memory's good, but trust me, without that tooltip, I couldn't remember what all the spell/ability icons represented. 

 

The thing is, I've been playing BG2 EE on my iPad, and the tooltip behavior, since you're using your finger and not a mouse pointer, is .... inconsistent. I often end up selecting a spell/ability when I'm just trying to "get" its tooltip. 

 

Again, this is really more of an iPad UI frustration I'm having, more than anything else. 

 

BTW, I certainly wasn't arguing against grid/slot inventory systems, but I agree with both your and Sylvius' points that you can have distinguishable item icons (and should), however, when all's said and done, I also like the item's name coming up on a tooltip if it's not in print underneath.

 

Sure, all those rings you posted look different. Which one was the ring of fire resistance, and which one was the ring of dexterity? You certainly can't tell just by looking. 

[Realmzmaster]

 
        
They are definitely all rings, but they don't look the same.
 
Only special or very powerful items really need to have unique icons though, the rest can be represented by "generic" icons. This helps the player distinguish between rare and common items.
 
       
These health/lyrium potions are all quite distinguishable. It is not only easy to see that they are health/lyrium potions, it is also rather simple to determine which potions are more potent by comparing size and workmanship of the container.
 
Anyway, the prerequisite for a very good grid/slot based inventory is of course good and distinguishable item icons like the ones above. Sylvius the Mad is spot on about the rest, just arrange your inventory and you will be able to find what you are looking for without even really having to look, because you know the exact or at least general location of said item on the grid. 
 
Well, the spells and abilities go into the quickbar, and quickbars only have icons - no text. I've never seen anybody complain about the fact that icons in the quickbar don't have a text description.

 

The rings all look different which is fine but how do you tell what they do? In a list I can have Ring of Fire Resistance or Ring of Health Maintenance. With the grid system , each item will need a tooltip to tell what it is and what it does, otherwise all you have is a set of nice pictures that I have to memorize what each item does..

[In Exile]

The rings all look different which is fine but how do you tell what they do? In a list I can have Ring of Fire Resistance or Ring of Health Maintenance. With the grid system , each item will need a tooltip to tell what it is and what it does, otherwise all you have is a set of nice pictures that I have to memorize what each item does..

Not to mention that this only works if you have unique picture for each thing. I'd items double or triple up then suddenly you have to remember what item goes where.

[dlux]

BTW, I certainly wasn't arguing against grid/slot inventory systems, but I agree with both your and Sylvius' points that you can have distinguishable item icons (and should), however, when all's said and done, I also like the item's name coming up on a tooltip if it's not in print underneath.
 
Sure, all those rings you posted look different. Which one was the ring of fire resistance, and which one was the ring of dexterity? You certainly can't tell just by looking.

The rings all look different which is fine but how do you tell what they do? In a list I can have Ring of Fire Resistance or Ring of Health Maintenance. With the grid system , each item will need a tooltip to tell what it is and what it does, otherwise all you have is a set of nice pictures that I have to memorize what each item does..

We seem to have a misunderstanding.
 
Tooltips are great and are required for an excellent UI, because tooltips improve a quickbar or grid inventory immensely (and is of course better than having to right click on an item for more info). You simply can't memorize every single detail about every item, spell or ablity, so you need tooltips to show info when required. They are also very helpful when comparing items.
 
You will certainly remember how quite a few items look like during your plathrough(s), like which ring in your inventory is the ring of dexterity. If not, then check the tooltips.
 

(Screenshot of the Might and Magic X: Legacy inventory including a tooltip. They did a great job with the inventory BTW.)
  

Not to mention that this only works if you have unique picture for each thing. I'd items double or triple up then suddenly you have to remember what item goes where.

You don't need unique images for everything, and it wouldn't be a good idea to give all common items unique icons anyway. Just give common items generic pictures, so that the player can distinguish between common and uncommon respectively rare items.
It is possible that you decide to keep (and not drop or sell) multiple rings that have the exact same icon. Doesn't matter, just simply read the tooltips when required.

Not to mention that BioWare uses a paper doll system and equipment slots, which means that you can only see the icons of the numerous items that all of your characters have equipped (you can of course read the tooltips of the equipped items). Many of these icons will probably also look the same too. I have never seen anybody say that this system is bad and they could not distinguish between the items that the player has equipped his characters with.

(found this screenshot on the net, I think we all know which game this is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The rings all look different which is fine but how do you tell what they do?

You arrange them by function.  That's how I do it.

 

In NWN, I had a standard pattern I followed for my potions (which filled the first page of my inventory).  For example, healing potions were along the bottom row, starting with the most effective at the far right and then of diminishing effectiveness as you moved left.  And if a stack was full, I added more stacks above those.

[AlanC9]

Not to mention that BioWare uses a paper doll system and equipment slots, which means that you can only see the icons of the numerous items that all of your characters have equipped (you can of course read the tooltips of the equipped items). Many of these icons will probably also look the same too. I have never seen anybody say that this system is bad and they could not distinguish between the items that the player has equipped his characters with.

 

 

 

Knowing the names of the items on the character isn't all that useful, though I wouldn't mind seeing them without a tooltip. Most of the time I'm still going to want to look at the detailed item stats in the tooltip -- unless I can remember the stats, but if I can do that I won't usually need to look at the paper doll anyway. It's not like trying to figure out which items in the grid or list I want to examine in the first place, which is where having a name or a unique picture comes in.

[Kantr]

Knowing the names of the items on the character isn't all that useful, though I wouldn't mind seeing them without a tooltip. Most of the time I'm still going to want to look at the detailed item stats in the tooltip -- unless I can remember the stats, but if I can do that I won't usually need to look at the paper doll anyway. It's not like trying to figure out which items in the grid or list I want to examine in the first place, which is where having a name or a unique picture comes in.

I think it's useful in the perspective of lore, and for the weapons it does make them more interesting.

[Wulfram]

One feature that's nice is something that'll compare an item with the one that's currently equipped

[In Exile]

You don't need unique images for everything, and it wouldn't be a good idea to give all common items unique icons anyway. Just give common items generic pictures, so that the player can distinguish between common and uncommon respectively rare items.

It is possible that you decide to keep (and not drop or sell) multiple rings that have the exact same icon. Doesn't matter, just simply read the tooltips when required.

Not to mention that BioWare uses a paper doll system and equipment slots, which means that you can only see the icons of the numerous items that all of your characters have equipped (you can of course read the tooltips of the equipped items). Many of these icons will probably also look the same too. I have never seen anybody say that this system is bad and they could not distinguish between the items that the player has equipped his characters with.

 

, 

 

I don't care about distinguishing between so-called "rare" and common items. In DA2, for example, the "common" items were sometimes way, way better than some named items depending on the build that you were using. DA:O didn't have "common" items - all of the items that had stat bonuses were named and unique. So the fact that I could tell these categories apart is pretty useless. Like AlanC9 says, the information that matters is the stats. 

 

Re: equipment slots, that's not what we're discussing here. It's grid vs. list. And in a grid, what you'd see is just the image, in every spot of the grid. You'd have to hover over the image to get the stats, and if you've got a bunch of rings with the same image, then you either have to remember the item and its rough qualities relative to a point in space or you have to hover over each item.

 

I don't think that system is that great, even if the list has equal (but different) annoyances. 

[AlanC9]

I think it's useful in the perspective of lore, and for the weapons it does make them more interesting.

Sure. What I meant was that it isn't a huge problem to only be able to see the names as tooltips.

[Remmirath]

I generally prefer grid inventories, and in fact individual inventories as well, but I was (for the most part) fine with DA:O's inventory. The problem was scrolling through to find things in the different places they end up after you pick up more items, which isn't a problem with grid inventories.

There were three main things I liked better about DA:O's inventory as compared to DA II's, although I admit that only one of those was specifically the inventory and not related to any other annoyances I had -- that being that I don't like having all the inventory "junk" be assigned into a junk folder with a trashcan icon. If you're going to do that, just eliminate it entirely and put coin in its place. It became merely an annoyance, with only a few very rare almost interesting items, and it removed any question of whether or not an item was going to become important later (which I do prefer not to know ahead of time).

One of the other things was a general UI difference, which is to say that I much prefer the interesting icons and indeed the presentation of DA:O's inventory in general. The icon style in DA II was comparatively uninteresting, and I generally felt that the UI didn't fit with the game world, so that probably compounded any annoyance I had with the inventory specifically.

The last thing was the items having almost all the same names, as well as that ridiculous star system. I don't want the game to tell me how good an item supposedly is for the character's level. I will decide that for myself, and I found the stars visually jarring. The general lack of uniquely named items was, I suppose, not directly related to the inventory, but nonetheless seeing what looked like six copies of the exact same item (with different bonuses) is one thing that sticks out in my mind about DA II's inventory whenever I think of it.

[Mistress9Nine]

I never liked the grid inventory system much myself, because it forces me to spend time on inventory management. The lever of required mangement of is of course different depending on what shapes and sized the items are and if there are any filters available for the inventory screen. But honestly I much prefer the list system of DAO, it had great, unique ite icons (with some exceptions) and better looking icons (YMMV) overall. I really really despised the whole inventory in DA:II, mostly because of the ugly item icons and the whole "trash" category (though this ties into the loot question, which the inventory just accomodates but is not a part of).

[dlux]

I don't care about distinguishing between so-called "rare" and common items. In DA2, for example, the "common" items were sometimes way, way better than some named items depending on the build that you were using. DA:O didn't have "common" items - all of the items that had stat bonuses were named and unique. So the fact that I could tell these categories apart is pretty useless. Like AlanC9 says, the information that matters is the stats.

Why don't you care if you are able to easily distinguish between rare and common items or not?

In response to DA2: Generic items in Dragon Age 2 were scaled to Hawkes level. Content scaling (i.e. level and item scaling) is a terrible mechanic and strongly detested by RPG fans, therefore it will not be in Dragon Age: Inquistion (thank you Mark and Mike! ) and as a result is not even relevant.

Anyway, DAO did have generic items. These are generic items and they all use the same icon (which is the "generic leather boots icon"):
http://dragonage.wik...i/Leather_Boots
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Dalish_Boots
http://dragonage.wik...r_Leather_Boots

 

Re: equipment slots, that's not what we're discussing here. It's grid vs. list. And in a grid, what you'd see is just the image, in every spot of the grid. You'd have to hover over the image to get the stats, and if you've got a bunch of rings with the same image, then you either have to remember the item and its rough qualities relative to a point in space or you have to hover over each item.
 
I don't think that system is that great, even if the list has equal (but different) annoyances.

A quickbar has only slots + tooltip function. The paper doll has only equipment slots + tooltip function. If these already work great and are the best solution, why can't it work for the inventory too? Just sayin'.

Like I mentioned, if you have numerous rings with the same icon, then they are likely generic. The chance of having 5 rings with the exact same icon in your inventory is very low (unless it is of course junk that you want to sell, but that stuff goes onto the junk pile anway and is not even relevant).
If want to see the stats of a few rings, then just hover over them, no big deal. You can see the rings (which are grouped) instantly if you open a grid based inventory, because you don't have to scroll back and forth (and back and forth) through your inventory to find what you are looking for.

 

With a grid system you can also very easily first hover over an armor piece, then move over to the rings and then finally to the scrolls in a just few glances/moments if you like. With a list based system you have to constantly go back and forth and scroll and change the category and then scroll some more and then change the category again and then scroll some more.   It is so annoying and a complete waste of time, with a grid based inventory you are done in just a few short moments.

 

Example: What if I have a special set of equipment with special bonuses, that I want to wear to fight a dragon or something? In a grid based system, I will have the set sorted out on the grid. Something like this:

        

Eight clicks and you're done, the set has been equipped. Oh the glory of a grid based inventory.

 

With a list based inventory system I would have to:

Spoiler

Click on the armor category, then scroll to the chestpieces and equip the one I want, then scroll to the helmets and equip the one I want, then scroll the gauntlets and equip the one I want, then scroll the boots and equip the one I want, then change the category to shields/weapons, then scroll to the shields and equip the one I want, then change the category to amulets/rings/belts, then scroll to the amulets and equip the I want, then scroll to the rings and equip the I want, then scroll to the belts and equip the I want........

This is admittingly an extreme example, but it is not uncommon that you would do such a chore to outfit your party. It is a complete mystery to me why some people actually prefer a list based system after having to go through such an annoying chore like in my example. I'd rather play the game than waste my time constantly scrolling back and forth through a list based inventory.

[Amfortas]

This is admittingly an extreme example, but it is not uncommon that you would do such a chore to outfit your party. It is a complete mystery to me why some people actually prefer a list based system after having to go through such an annoying chore like in my example. I'd rather play the game than waste my time constantly scrolling back and forth through a list based inventory.

 

Because the amount of time spent swapping armour is marginal compared to the time you have to spend classifying everything in a grid system. Or even worse, the time it takes to find anything if you don't organize it (I don't).

 

I have terrible memories of the NWN2 inventory, gems everywhere, mixed with trap kits, junk, crafting materials and swords +1.

[metatheurgist]

Just have grids with an autosort function (that people can turn off). Combines a grid and a list, better than a list because you don't have to scroll, just look through the tabs.

[Mistress9Nine]

This is admittingly an extreme example, but it is not uncommon that you would do such a chore to outfit your party. It is a complete mystery to me why some people actually prefer a list based system after having to go through such an annoying chore like in my example. I'd rather play the game than waste my time constantly scrolling back and forth through a list based inventory.

And where do your unequipped items go? They will be bumped to the first available place in the grid and create more cutter, with you having to rearrange them everytime you switch gears. No less tedious then going through the list menus (of which there are actually only 2-3 armor/weapons/accessories), so I'm not sure why this method is superior in this regard. 

 

The problem you propose is much more easily solved with the implementation of equipment quickslots. I can't for the life of me remember which game had this (maybe Gothic?), where you can assign a whole set of equipment to one quickslot, so you could create quickslots for your "Dragonslayer" build, your "Anti-mage build" etc. This system is clearly superior if you factor in multiple builds using the same item, cause in that case the grid solution isn't necessarily the best, especially since you are managing builds for 4-9 characters.

 

Then agin, this is never an issue for me as I tend to stick with the same equipment until I find better and I honestly don't see the point in having such a focus on builds in a non-PvP environment.

[dlux]

Because the amount of time spent swapping armour is marginal compared to the time you have to spend classifying everything in a grid system.

You have to classify the stuff you pick up no matter if the inventory is list or grid based. So...
 

I have terrible memories of the NWN2 inventory, gems everywhere, mixed with trap kits, junk, crafting materials and swords +1.

There is a countless amount of items in Neverwinter Nights 2, but fortunately the game has a grid (slot) based inventory. NWN2 would have turned into a "scrollfest" with a list based inventory.

Or even worse, the time it takes to find anything if you don't organize it (I don't).

Just have grids with an autosort function (that people can turn off). Combines a grid and a list, better than a list because you don't have to scroll, just look through the tabs.

Yes, some games have this actually. Good for those who don't like to sort the inventory themselves.

[In Exile]

Why don't you care if you are able to easily distinguish between rare and common items or not?

 

Because common items are basically just garbage that's going into the "sell at first sight" pile. 

 

Anyway, DAO did have generic items. These are generic items and they all use the same icon (which is the "generic leather boots icon"):
http://dragonage.wik...i/Leather_Boots
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Dalish_Boots
http://dragonage.wik...r_Leather_Boots

 

Right. And those items were garbage that weren't worth anything more than the coopers you got for selling them. 

 

Like I mentioned, if you have numerous rings with the same icon, then they are likely generic. The chance of having 5 rings with the exact same icon in your inventory is very low (unless it is of course junk that you want to sell, but that stuff goes onto the junk pile anway and is not even relevant).

If want to see the stats of a few rings, then just hover over them, no big deal. You can see the rings (which are grouped) instantly if you open a grid based inventory, because you don't have to scroll back and forth (and back and forth) through your inventory to find what you are looking for.

 

With a grid system you can also very easily first hover over an armor piece, then move over to the rings and then finally to the scrolls in a just few glances/moments if you like. With a list based system you have to constantly go back and forth and scroll and change the category and then scroll some more and then change the category again and then scroll some more.  It is so annoying and a complete waste of time, with a grid based inventory you are done in just a few short moments.

 

You have to switch between multiple screens of items if we're talking about a grid. The sheer volume of loot you get - if we're talking about a game like BG1-2 or NWN1-2 - means multiple screens of loot. Assuming you even class the screens by item type, that still leaves you with a huge clutter of items. 

 

And even if you have a "junk" screen for items that you're going to sell right away you still have to take the time to actually organize your items each you get a new one and put it into your junk pile. And when you get to that "critical" item that makes you go to another screen because you just filled out one screen of grids for a type of item, then it gets real nasty. 

 

You're acting like we have 5 magic rights in a game, instead of 40. 

 

With a grid based system I'm constantly moving between different screens were I've stuffed all of my armors, rings, weapons, whatever especially since weapons and armour take up bigger #s of grids so I have to play tetris to keep them all on the same screen. Then I'm hovering over each to see what the stats of each are... and all of a sudden there's no difference between this and a list other than the visual arrangement.

 

This is just as annoying as a list when I'm scrolling down to find stuff. 

 

Example: What if I have a special set of equipment with special bonuses, that I want to wear to fight a dragon or something? In a grid based system, I will have the set sorted out on the grid. Something like this:

        

Eight clicks and you're done, the set has been equipped. Oh the glory of a grid based inventory. 

 

And what if I don't want to create a special set of equipment with special bonuses? What if I just want to use one item out of that set? Not to mention that in a grid, all of these items would take up different space, so I'd have to play inventory tetris to fit these together on one side. 

 

Edit:

And I should say that an auto-sort function is confusing garbage that works on its own internal logic that you don't know about in advance, so if you have a bunch of items and make the terrible mistake of clicking it all of a sudden you have to scour the whole 8 pages of grids to find things again. Unless you click it constantly, in which case you have to scour all 8 pages of grids to find out where the system stuffed your new item. 

[Amfortas]

And what if I don't want to create a special set of equipment with special bonuses? What if I just want to use one item out of that set? Not to mention that in a grid, all of these items would take up different space, so I'd have to play inventory tetris to fit these together on one side.

 

You can have a grid system where everything has the same size, MMO style.

 

The auto sort button usually messes up the few items that you've cared to order, as In Exile said. I wouldn't mind a grid system if every item takes only 1 square and there are still different tabs for each item type, just like in the current system. In that case I could see the benefits.

[AlanC9]

NWN2 would have turned into a "scrollfest" with a list based inventory.

I'd prefer the scrollfest to the grid.

[dlux]

And where do your unequipped items go? They will be bumped to the first available place in the grid and create more cutter, with you having to rearrange them everytime you switch gears. No less tedious then going through the list menus (of which there are actually only 2-3 armor/weapons/accessories), so I'm not sure why this method is superior in this regard.

No, items simply switch slots.
 
And even if it wasn't like that, it would still be faster to move 8 pieces of gear than to scroll through the inventory.
 

The problem you propose is much more easily solved with the implementation of equipment quickslots. I can't for the life of me remember which game had this (maybe Gothic?), where you can assign a whole set of equipment to one quickslot, so you could create quickslots for your "Dragonslayer" build, your "Anti-mage build" etc. This system is clearly superior if you factor in multiple builds using the same item, cause in that case the grid solution isn't necessarily the best, especially since you are managing builds for 4-9 characters.

Then agin, this is never an issue for me as I tend to stick with the same equipment until I find better and I honestly don't see the point in having such a focus on builds in a non-PvP environment.

Neverwinter Nights did this, not very good though. I have also seen it in Lord of the Rings Online, where it was done very well. You could very easily switch between an equipment set and outfits. It doesn't have much to do with the actual inventory, but it might be a very nice addition.

Anyway, a different set of equipment (a whole set or maybe just a few items) can have be very useful because of specific stat bonuses. E.g. a set with a high fire resistance bonus to fight dragons, a set with a high magic resistance to fight powerful liches, etc.

[dlux]

Because common items are basically just garbage that's going into the "sell at first sight" pile.

Well yeah, that is the whole point of being to distinguish between rare and common items. I.e. You can easily spot common items, which you of course throw onto the junk pile and sell later.
 

You have to switch between multiple screens of items if we're talking about a grid. The sheer volume of loot you get - if we're talking about a game like BG1-2 or NWN1-2 - means multiple screens of loot. Assuming you even class the screens by item type, that still leaves you with a huge clutter of items.

Not necessarily. Pillars of Eternity (i'm sure you've heard of it) will have separate inventories for all party members (6 in total), but all of it will be shown on one screen, which should be about 100 slots total. So yeah, you can easily fit the entire NWN2 or Baldur's Gate inventory on one screen, just because it wasn't done in those games doesn't mean that it is impossible. BTW, the inventory will of course be be slot based in PoE, because that is what the fans want.

Anyway, I don't see how a few inventory tabs could be just as bad as the numerous categories that a list based inventory has - at least you don't have to constantly scroll back and forth through your inventory.
 

And even if you have a "junk" screen for items that you're going to sell right away you still have to take the time to actually organize your items each you get a new one and put it into your junk pile. And when you get to that "critical" item that makes you go to another screen because you just filled out one screen of grids for a type of item, then it gets real nasty.

Even a list based inventory needs to be cleaned up every once in a while. You still have to manually throw the junk you don't want (anymore) onto the junk pile. With a slot/grid based inventory at least you don't have to constantly scroll back and forth to do so.
 

You're acting like we have 5 magic rights in a game, instead of 40. 
 
With a grid based system I'm constantly moving between different screens were I've stuffed all of my armors, rings, weapons, whatever especially since weapons and armour take up bigger #s of grids so I have to play tetris to keep them all on the same screen. Then I'm hovering over each to see what the stats of each are... and all of a sudden there's no difference between this and a list other than the visual arrangement.

This is just as annoying as a list when I'm scrolling down to find stuff.

I am talking about 5 - 10 rings, because it is unlikely that you will have more than that in your inventory (junk excluded).

Anyway, switching between tabs in a grid based system would of course be just as fast as changing the category in a list based inventory. The grid based system would of course still be faster, simply beacuse you do not have to constantly scroll up and down through the inventory.
You seem to hate the inventory tabs that certain games with grid based inventories have, but like I said, the entire party's inventory can be on one screen. PoE will have this feature.

BTW, I don't like Diablo style inventory tetris either, a slot based solution is much better.
 

And what if I don't want to create a special set of equipment with special bonuses? What if I just want to use one item out of that set? Not to mention that in a grid, all of these items would take up different space, so I'd have to play inventory tetris to fit these together on one side.

Then just equip one of the items.

And I am not a fan of Diablo style grid inventories either, because I don't like to play inventory tetris. I like slot based inventories, like in BG, NWN2, etc.

[AlanC9]

This topic seems to mostly be about some people really disliking scrolling.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This topic seems to mostly be about some people really disliking scrolling.

I dislike wasting time. Scrolling through lists to find things only bothers me because I have to do it again and again. But sortable grids only require that I browse through them to find something once. Then I can impart order and from that moment forward I almost never need to browse through tooltips to find something because I should then know where everything is.

If lists were sortable and accessible in this way, I would have no objection to lists.

[CybAnt1]

This topic seems to mostly be about some people really disliking scrolling.

 

Scrolling is bad, Alan.