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[Xilizhra]

I don't think R2 was describing Cullen as a hero. She was saying the fact that he isn't is why she likes him, there's a good man underneath all the head mess and Chantry/Order indoctrination, which is what's interesting. 

In terms of "good person"itude, I would say that given his actions and capacity for reason, he's on about the same level as... Caladrius. Albeit with a bit more self-doubt, so redeeming him might be easier.

As an aside, I wouldn't have brought this discussion here, but the other Cullen thread got locked.

[Ananka]

Oh, gawd!:

 

Cameron Harris: "Aaaand back to editing stuff that makes me cry quietly at my desk. Damn writers. #emotionalhooligans #DAI"

 

Mary Kirby ‏@BioMaryKirby 

@camharr Look at it this way: You only get that conversation if you're a terrible person, so you DESERVE to cry. See? It all works out!

 

 

Phew!

[Xilizhra]

Well, sure you could say the same thing about any mass murder if you don't want to consider the circumstances surrounding it. Without context, you could compare an Annulment to a serial killer's rampage or to the soldiers involved in a World War. I suppose if one thinks that the ends never justify the means, then sure, they're equivalent.

The ends most definitely don't justify the means here, as the ends were every bit as bad as the means in the Annulment.

 

 

Even standing up to Meredith at the end? He does get any points for that being the "right" thing? 

Not really, because I and my party were not the ones who needed his mercy; I have every confidence that we could have taken him and his templars out had the fight been pressed, but such was not the case for the other victims of the Annulment. The net effect was mostly to save his own life.

[ChachiBobinks]

I swear to the Maker, if they pull a ME3 on us...

 

DON'T YOU SAY THAT. DON'T YOU PUT THAT OUT THERE. YOU TAKE THAT BACK.

 

*white girl cries*

[R2s Muse]

That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while:

 

In DA2, if you side with the Templars Cullen mentions that the Annulment in Ferelden was called due to the blood mage attack but many mages survived and that they could still do as much here (in Kirkwall). Does he only say that if your Warden refused to kill all the mages when he demanded it back in his pink cage? Or does he say something else if your Warden actually went ahead and had them killed?

 

I've wondered that myself. I'd bet so. Otherwise, Witch Hunt would be... really boring. No Finn.

I'd be really surprised if this were the case. The import flags were so wonky on the big stuff... my money's on this being the same regardless of what you did. I'd love to find out, tho. I've never done a PT where I imported a 'kill all the mages' save. Plus, regardless of what you choose at the end, you still saved those kids at the beginning and Wynne, right? Maybe those are the mages who were 'saved.'

[R2s Muse]

In terms of "good person"itude, I would say that given his actions and capacity for reason, he's on about the same level as... Caladrius. Albeit with a bit more self-doubt, so redeeming him might be easier.

As an aside, I wouldn't have brought this discussion here, but the other Cullen thread got locked.

LOL w00T!

[wiccame]

Perhaps... but Cullen hasn't done something that was genuinely "right" in such a long time that I couldn't really consider him to be a hero in any way, shape or form. He certainly has the potential to be a good person, but he hasn't yet realized it.

See this is what confuses me, people wonder why he didn't do something sooner...

He was acting under direct orders from his superior. Being second in command does give him the right to question his superiors motives and remove them of command IF they had hard proof that they are no longer fit to command. 

Cullen may have had his doubts about Meredith's motives but seeing the state of the mages in Kirkwall its a safe bet he probably felt she was just being extra vigilant and probably justified. 

It wasn't until she completely lost it, calling for the death of Hawke when he/she wasn't even part of the circle and, they had already had plans to just arrest him/her. That's when he could clearly see that this wasn't about the safety of Kirkwall and the calming of a catastophe, instead it was just Meredith losing her marbles. and that's when he had all the proof he really needed. So I think he acted at pretty much the earliest possible time.

[Phate Phoenix]

I'd be really surprised if this were the case. The import flags were so wonky on the big stuff... my money's on this being the same regardless of what you did. I'd love to find out, tho. I've never done a PT where I imported a 'kill all the mages' save. Plus, regardless of what you choose at the end, you still saved those kids at the beginning and Wynne, right? Maybe those are the mages who were 'saved.'

 

No, I'm pretty sure if you choose to Annul the Circle, Wynne fights you immediately. I don't know about the other mages. I haven't done my not-nice run yet.

[wiccame]

No, I'm pretty sure if you choose to Annul the Circle, Wynne fights you immediately. I don't know about the other mages. I haven't done my not-nice run yet.

You can still annul the circle and have Wynne live. Just fail miserably with the litany.

[Phate Phoenix]

You can still annul the circle and have Wynne live. Just fail miserably with the litany.

 

Oh, yeah.  You can totally not pick it up off Niall's body, either.

[Panda]

You can still annul the circle and have Wynne live. Just fail miserably with the litany.

 

Reminds me of my resent playthrough. I had forgotten that i needed to actual use litany.. so I just ended up killing all mages in the battle and were suprised since it wasn't my intention. Somehow I just forgot it. Sigh, I'm such failure sometimes XD

[R2s Muse]

 

Not really, because I and my party were not the ones who needed his mercy; I have every confidence that we could have taken him and his templars out had the fight been pressed, but such was not the case for the other victims of the Annulment. The net effect was mostly to save his own life.

I guess I see the "right"-ness of his actions in the intent, not so much in the net effect. I mean, what if he'd died during the battle? Would that influence how "right" he was? And, of course, admittedly, all I have to judge his intent by is his stated intent, that it was to stop Meredith as opposed to save his own skin (or even Hawke's), while I understand you may not choose to believe him. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.  As usual. 

[alwayshungry]

Oh, yeah.  You can totally not pick it up off Niall's body, either.

"Damn, I feel like I've forgotten something. Meh, it's probably not important"

[R2s Muse]

No, I'm pretty sure if you choose to Annul the Circle, Wynne fights you immediately. I don't know about the other mages. I haven't done my not-nice run yet.

That's right. I forgot about Wynne trying to kill you.  But there are others that are saved before you even meet Cullen in his pink bubble of woe.

[Dirgegun]

Oh, yeah.  You can totally not pick it up off Niall's body, either.

 

Niall! One of my other favourite NPCs. 

 

It's okay, bby. I'm sure your momma would be proud. 

[ChachiBobinks]

Reminds me of my resent playthrough. I had forgotten that i needed to actual use litany.. so I just ended up killing all mages in the battle and were suprised since it wasn't my intention. Somehow I just forgot it. Sigh, I'm such failure sometimes XD

 

I do that every time.

[Phate Phoenix]

That's right. I forgot about Wynne trying to kill you.  But there are others that are saved before you even meet Cullen in his pink bubble of woe.

 

You can actually fight Wynne right off the bat, when you first meet her, if you say you're going to cleanse the Circle, or if she figures out Morrigan is an apostate. According to the Wiki at least.

[R2s Muse]

You can actually fight Wynne right off the bat, when you first meet her, if you say you're going to cleanse the Circle, or if she figures out Morrigan is an apostate. According to the Wiki at least.

Yeah or if you just choose not let Wynne come with you at the beginning, right? She's ornery! 

[R2s Muse]

This sounds like fun! Um, romance cinematics, anyone??

John Epler ‏@eplerjc 1m
Some days, my job is basically when you're a kid and you pretend your dolls are kissing.

[Xilizhra]

I guess I see the "right"-ness of his actions in the intent, not so much in the net effect. I mean, what if he'd died during the battle? Would that influence how "right" he was? And, of course, admittedly, all I have to judge his intent by is his stated intent, that it was to stop Meredith as opposed to save his own skin (or even Hawke's), while I understand you may not choose to believe him. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.  As usual. 

I don't know. It was "a" right action, but on its own, it wasn't nearly enough to make up for everything he'd done thus far.

 

 

See this is what confuses me, people wonder why he didn't do something sooner...

He was acting under direct orders from his superior. Being second in command does give him the right to question his superiors motives and remove them of command IF they had hard proof that they are no longer fit to command. 

Cullen may have had his doubts about Meredith's motives but seeing the state of the mages in Kirkwall its a safe bet he probably felt she was just being extra vigilant and probably justified. 

It wasn't until she completely lost it, calling for the death of Hawke when he/she wasn't even part of the circle and, they had already had plans to just arrest him/her. That's when he could clearly see that this wasn't about the safety of Kirkwall and the calming of a catastophe, instead it was just Meredith losing her marbles. and that's when he had all the proof he really needed. So I think he acted at pretty much the earliest possible time.

I see the business of the Templar Order as being inherently corrupt or at least harmful, and Cullen went along with it even when he knew what harm it did.

[wiccame]

Oh, yeah.  You can totally not pick it up off Niall's body, either.

Yeah but then you have her yelling at you to pick it up lol , I just flag my team to hit what I hit and kite Uldred, hitting him every now and then to trigger him turning a mage, and ooops hit the litany too late....shucks, there goes another one

[Lorien19]

You can still annul the circle and have Wynne live. Just fail miserably with the litany.

Aahh,good old first playthrough...So many memories of epic failures!

[LolaLei]

In terms of "good person"itude, I would say that given his actions and capacity for reason, he's on about the same level as... Caladrius. Albeit with a bit more self-doubt, so redeeming him might be easier.

As an aside, I wouldn't have brought this discussion here, but the other Cullen thread got locked.

 

Caladrius the Tervinter slaver from DA:O? I 100% disagree with your notion. Caladrius had something to gain from enslaving the Elves, he was an out and out opportunist and stood to earn money in doing so. The only reason he tries to make a deal with the Warden is to save his own skin. When Cullen joined the Templars he was young and naive, it wasn't because "wheeeeey, I can make money locking up and killing mages! Best. Job. Ever!"

 

Cullen's change of heart at the end of DA2 wasn't based on monetary gain, and we don't know why he let Hawke 'n' co go yet. It's all well and good claiming "he was scared and wanted to save his own skin because my Hawke would run a sword through him", but we have no idea what his reasoning was until the man himself tells us. It's just your head canon unless he actually confirms that he did indeed sh!t his pants and let Hawke go to save his own skin, which is ridiculous in itself because he's risking getting himself killed for insubordination anyway. I mean, he's put his arse on the line regardless of whether he let Hawke go or not. 

[MacyNell]

This sounds like fun! Um, romance cinematics, anyone??

John Epler ‏@eplerjc 1m
Some days, my job is basically when you're a kid and you pretend your dolls are kissing.

 

Yeah, I just saw this.  Sounds like fun.  Wish I could watch over shoulder.  

[Xilizhra]

 

Caladrius the Tervinter slaver from DA:O? I 100% disagree with your notion. Caladrius had something to gain from enslaving the Elves, he was an out and out opportunist and stood to earn money in doing so. The only reason he tries to make a deal with the Warden is to save his own skin. When Cullen joined the Templars he was young and naive, it wasn't because "wheeeeey, I can make money locking up and killing mages! Best. Job. Ever!"

 

Cullen's change of heart at the end of DA2 wasn't based on monetary gain, and we don't know why he let Hawke 'n' co go yet. It's all well and good claiming "he was scared and wanted to save his own skin because my Hawke would run a sword through him", but we have no idea what his reasoning was until the man himself tells us. It's just your head canon unless he actually confirms that he did indeed sh!t his pants and let Hawke go to save his own skin, which is ridiculous in itself because he's risking getting himself killed for insubordination anyway. I mean, he's put his arse on the line regardless of whether he let Hawke go or not. 

 

I didn't say that was his intention, I said that was more the effect, and that his action here counts for a lot less when there were others who needed his help far more. I'm sure he did think that Meredith stepped over some kind of line, I just find it to be an extremely weird and arbitrary line.