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[Damate]

My impession of what Xil was getting at is that Cullen isn't "good" because of what he serves and what that participates in, necessitating he do things some feel are wrong/evil. I don't disagree with that. The Order does do some pretty awful things to mages and I've always said I'd love to see a better system in place. The caveat of invoking "scripted story" is true... but it's also worth noting that Cullen was still written to be a certain way and not everyone will see the character positively because he's a part of something that abuses a given group of people. For example, take Loghain. I know he has his supporters and they have their reasons and they could tell me how I can't hold the scripted story against him. To which I'd ask; "why not?" He was written to be the character he is. And I just don't think he's "good". And I never felt he did anything to redeem himself though I did try to understand him better. So were I supposed to take a character at face value, I wouldn't like Cullen. It's because he has nuance that I like him. I find he is doing things that redeem him and prove he's not a total jerk. It's because I've seen his struggles that I hold judgement. It's because he's questioned himself and the Order that I think he's "good". If you want people to just judge the story at face value, Cullen becomes not someone I can't sympathize with because of how the story plays out. It hardly protects him. If the result of DA2 is inevitable, the writers probably just didn't invest in making every little aspect match up so Cullen's actions seem weird. looking beyond the script at all the little pieces given are what make it a morally grey tale on both sides, IMO.

Oh, I agree with what you are saying I really do. And I'm personally a middle-liner when it comes to the Mage/Chantry/Templar thing: I definitely believe the whole system needed overhauled and my "canon" Warden and Hawke agree with that mentality. And if we are simply discussing Cullen as a character as we've seen him, then sure, we work with what we are given, regardless of why the writers chose - for in-game stability and progress - to write him any particular way...
...however, I wasn't actually responding to a critique of Cullen as he stands alone, as a character, but rather Xil's post here:

http://forum.bioware...2#entry16444711

Where Hawke and Cullen's positions within the story are compared. That's what I disagreed with: Comparing those two because their roles are so inherently different within the story-arc itself. Does that make more sense?

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra, once you get Cullen in your party, and get to know him, would you ever romance him?

Er, I'm lesbian?

 

 

True. Given that fact, it may be possible. Looking beyond the facts however, he'd need to be able to buy lyrium which means he'd need work. He's a Fereldan refugee and runaway templar - who would hire him? And given Cullen's apparent straightlaced personality, he may balk at the idea of breaking the law in that way. Then there's Samson, he was selling mages into slavery for his fix of lyrium. That's how desperate he was, so I'd argue it's not as easy as all that to get. Hawke & Co. do because they have connections and money. Cullen wouldn't have that benefit unless he was in good with someone like Hawke, though I doubt he'd welcome being beholden to anyone in that manner. 

 

  Also, as I said before, being a knight is a part of his identity. That's not an easy thing to let go of. Especially if you feel you can make a difference. Had he just left, he's helping no one. Or, at least, not until he can settle into being a civilian. Given what he states his beiiefs of what being a templar is about, I'd wager he'd find leaving a dereliction of his duty and thus his self. He could try to change things from within, though we know how futile that has seemed and now that so much has gone awry, he may have to admit to himself that changing things from within wasn't ever going to work. Provided he even thinks in terms of revolution of course. He may just be a staunch believer in the way things were before, like back at Kinloch Hold before it all went sideways (Thanks Uldred). In which case, I'd still believe him to be a good man but brainwashed to serve a corrupt system and thus collateral damage. Kind of like Fenris if your friendship with him isn't very high when you side with the mages.

It wasn't necessarily easy, true (though... how long has Cullen been with the Order, and is it enough for the addiction to truly set in?). I appreciate that his situation was difficult, but his priorities were not... helpful to the greater good, I suppose.

[Crunchycarp]

I gave him a chance once but I never could like him

[Damate]

Some people hate me for this but my least favorite character in the DA franchise is Fenris

hehehehehehehe

[Hellion Rex]

TWAU Ep. 3  Spoilers

 

Spoiler

I HATE Bloody Mary, even though she is an awesome character and her VA sold her lines so well!!!

[LolaLei]

TWAU Ep. 3 Spoilers

Spoiler

I HATE Bloody Mary, even though she is an awesome character and her VA sold her lines so well!!!

I'm gonna rip her arms off and then tear her throat out. That is all.

[SamaraDraven]

Oh, I agree with what you are saying I really do. And I'm personally a middle-liner when it comes to the Mage/Chantry/Templar thing: I definitely believe the whole system needed overhauled and my "canon" Warden and Hawke agree with that mentality. And if we are simply discussing Cullen as a character as we've seen him, then sure, we work with what we are given, regardless of why the writers chose - for in-game stability and progress - to write him any particular way...
...however, I wasn't actually responding to a critique of Cullen as he stands alone, as a character, but rather Xil's post here:

http://forum.bioware...2#entry16444711

Where Hawke and Cullen's positions within the story are compared. That's what I disagreed with: Comparing those two because their roles are so inherently different within the story-arc itself. Does that make more sense?

 

Ah. yes. I guess I'd forgotten the distinction. And, in a way, parroted what you said when I mentioned that getting a hold of lyrium can't be as easy for Cullen as all that simply because Hawke can get it. And I listed reasons for this. I do wonder... if playing a pro-mage Hawke could Cullen has come to her her or him to ask for help? As I said, I doubt he'd want to be indebted to a person but if the writers had time, would Cullen's doubts have had a more natural progression? Just a random think I have...

[CandraRose]

I gave him a chance once but I never could like him

That's fine it's your opinion I feel the same way about Leliana I keep trying to get along with her but it just never works out.

[Damate]

Ah. yes. I guess I'd forgotten the distinction. And, in a way, parroted what you said when I mentioned that getting a hold of lyrium can't be as easy for Cullen as all that simply because Hawke can get it.

Yep. very true: There's lots of things Hawke is able to do that other characters in the game wouldn't get away with - at least not with such ease. Like, you know... being an apostate... who kicks ass on a regular basis... with magic... in the streets... of Kirkwall.

Cue Oblivious Cullen joke.

And I listed reasons for this. I do wonder... if playing a pro-mage Hawke could Cullen has come to her her or him to ask for help? As I said, I doubt he'd want to be indebted to a person but if the writers had time, would Cullen's doubts have had a more natural progression? Just a random think I have...

It's late and I'm active here while the kiddos take a bath, right now, so I'm not following the question? Can you clarify?

[Jynxed_]

I've seen a fair few people that wanted to romance her, lol. She came close though!

Spoiler

I wanted to romance the qunari that shot her :3

[Jynxed_]

TWAU Ep. 3  Spoilers

 

Spoiler

I HATE Bloody Mary, even though she is an awesome character and her VA sold her lines so well!!!

 

....I liked her....

 

 

*hides under desk*

[Dirgegun]

Wow, people hate Sumia? Not that you aren't allowed to hate 'nice' characters! I'm just generally surprised to hear she was polarising to some. I didn't hate her, but I never used her because there's characters I find more interesting. 

 

If we're doing a 'confess our least favourite character' thing and it doesn't have to be DA....

 

Souda Kazuichi from Super Dangan Ronpa 2. He's tumblr's little darling, but I can't stand the little sh!t. 

 

As for DA characters...

 

I actually don't hate anyone? I mean there's some HORRIBLE jerks in DA, but I don't feel HATE towards them. It's kind of weird? The characters I've created have hated people, of course, but when it comes to DA I find myself just looking at the writing instead and just appreciating how they can make these characters do terrible things/be terrible people but NOT one dimensional. Even Howe, in all his dickory, had motivations he believed in. It doesn't make what he did okay, but I marvel at it from a writing point of view because I've played so many games where that kind of thing has never really been explained with minor baddies.

[Damate]

Spoiler

I wanted to romance the qunari that shot her :3

I'm out of Likes... so... LIKE.

[SamaraDraven]

Er, I'm lesbian?

 

 

It wasn't necessarily easy, true (though... how long has Cullen been with the Order, and is it enough for the addiction to truly set in?). I appreciate that his situation was difficult, but his priorities were not... helpful to the greater good, I suppose.

 

By DA2's end, he'd been with the Order for over 10 years so it's been a while. If lyrium addiction was his top priority, I don't think he'd be redeemable at all. Like Samson. So I'm inclined to think his biggest reason for remaining in the Order during the events of DA2 was more his sense of duty. I bring up the practical logistics because that's usually a stopping point for anyone considering rebellion. You have to first make sure you can see it through, you know? I'm more inclined to think he wasn't considering rebellion so much as doing as ordered and believing it to be the "right" thing to do and the mistreatment of mages over the years had started to become more difficult to wave away under the label of "divine duty".

 

More than I want a romance with Cullen, I want a story where he's coming to grips with the realities of the evil his Order has committed and thus he himself has committed in blindly following them. I consider him to be like a Teal'c of the bunch. In Stargate sg-1 Teal'c served the bad guys, faithfully for years, though we only see his snapping point in the first episode. He did bad things in the name of a false god, personally selected his future companion's wife to be taken for a host and presided over the murder of capture humans.

 

He didn't do these things out of malice but out of a belief in duty, sense of self and the awareness that the ones he loved most, his wife and son, would suffer if he rebelled. He didn't things out of malice and eventually the atrocity of what he served was too great to ignore so he defects and helps the heroes save the day. His past comes back to make his new life difficult and he's shunned, put on trial, his family outcast to live in squalor and he fully believes he'll never make up for the things he did. But he lives his life trying to anyway. He, like Cullen, was indoctrinated from a young age to see many things as "right". When he finally faced the truth, he became one of the best allies against his former masters. THIS is in essence what I see as possible for Cullen. A good person caught in a bad system that has brainwashed him and he desperately needs to wake up. It just hasn't helped that he's witnessed an occasion or two that seems to prove his masters right and undoes his own mind.

[Damate]

 
As for DA characters...
 
I actually don't hate anyone? I mean there's some HORRIBLE jerks in DA, but I don't feel HATE towards them. It's kind of weird? The characters I've created have hated people, of course, but when it comes to DA I find myself just looking at the writing instead and just appreciating how they can make these characters do terrible things/be terrible people but NOT one dimensional. Even Howe, in all his dickory, had motivations he believed in. It doesn't make what he did okay, but I marvel at it from a writing point of view because I've played so many games where that kind of thing has never really been explained with minor baddies.

I agree for the most part, but lemme tell you: Killing Howe with my F!Cousland Warden was more satisfying for the PC than killing the Archdemon... or at least pretty damned close! ^.^

[Hellion Rex]

....I liked her....

 

 

*hides under desk*

Nah I like her character lol. She was a badass. She is a very good villain.

*pulls you out from under the desk*

[Hellion Rex]

I'm gonna rip her arms off and then tear her throat out. That is all.

Lol that was pretty cold, Lola.

[Jynxed_]

Wow, people hate Sumia? Not that you aren't allowed to hate 'nice' characters! I'm just generally surprised to hear she was polarising to some. I didn't hate her, but I never used her because there's characters I find more interesting. 

 

If we're doing a 'confess our least favourite character' thing and it doesn't have to be DA....

 

Souda Kazuichi from Super Dangan Ronpa 2. He's tumblr's little darling, but I can't stand the little sh!t. 

 

As for DA characters...

 

I actually don't hate anyone? I mean there's some HORRIBLE jerks in DA, but I don't feel HATE towards them. It's kind of weird? The characters I've created have hated people, of course, but when it comes to DA I find myself just looking at the writing instead and just appreciating how they can make these characters do terrible things/be terrible people but NOT one dimensional. Even Howe, in all his dickory, had motivations he believed in. It doesn't make what he did okay, but I marvel at it from a writing point of view because I've played so many games where that kind of thing has never really been explained with minor baddies.

I'm the kind of person who has the ability to hate video game characters with a passion. Hated Fenris, hated Merril, hated Sister Petrice, hated the mother in the chantry in Lothering DAO because she wouldn't give me the damn key for Sten's cage, hated Isolde, Hated Isolde's son, Hated Carver, hated Warden-Bethany, Hated Hawke's mom, Hated that elf girl in awakening, HATED Logain, and hated Anora....and that's just Dragon Age games. :3

 

*edit* Mmm..almost forgot Howe. Hate that guy too.

[Dirgegun]

I agree for the most part, but lemme tell you: Killing Howe with my F!Cousland Warden was more satisfying for the PC than killing the Archdemon... or at least pretty damned close! ^.^

 

That was satisfying, yes! I was hoping for a more dramatic cutscene with a Cousland, though, and was sad I did not get. 

 

But that comes back to how I've had characters that have hated people, and I can easily roleplay them, but when it comes to my own feelings I don't actually feel hate on my own part as such.

[Kirrahe1]

You know I'm betting someone has said this already but I'm tired so I may have missed it.

Cullen's actions were also probably the direct result of his faith. This is a man who has been told his entire life that the Templars serve the chantry and the maker and defying the Chantry or the Templars is going against the Makers (or Andrastes) will. It would probably be more scary because the Maker is already considered a deity that isn't to fond of humans anyway. To us in a modern setting this may not seem logical or a very big deal but you can bet in a society like that and with the way he was raised and trained it means everything. He also talked about how he would never go against/question the order in the first game. Cullen was probably worried that defying Meredith was heresy.

As a real world example people in Spain allowed to Spanish Inquisition to go on for an incredibly long time (in fact it wasn't disbanded until 1820 although it had really calmed down by then) because they were worried about their souls and that those around them who weren't religious would anger God. (They were also worried you could catch being a heretic) The people for the most part actually wanted those investigations around.

So back to Cullen religious motivation along with duty AND his past experiences and trauma are major factors in his unwillingness to make a move. Oh and that he wasn't the hero of the story-that was a great point made

So judging Cullen's inaction by our modern standards without that religious societal pressure doesn't seem entirely fair.

[SamaraDraven]

It's late and I'm active here while the kiddos take a bath, right now, so I'm not following the question? Can you clarify?

 

Sorry. I meant that, if there had been more time for development, would Cullen's doubts have had a more natural progression from "I'm not sure..." to "STAND DOWN MEREDITH!" Then it got me thinking... If Cullen was experiencing doubts at a more natural pace and Hawke was pro-mage, might he have come to her o warn of things? Or to ask for help? Like how Thrask does? I would think questioning himself would lead him to do... I dunno, something - no matter how small - before The Last Straw. I just think it would have been neat. He clearly wondered about the Order before it all went to hell so why not show us this a bit more concretely? He brought the trouble regarding Aveline to Hawke when I doubt Meredith would have approved because I can see her wanting control of the guard. So why weren't his doubts more... visible? I wonder if it was just due to time constraints and rushed release of the game.

[Kirrahe1]

I believe Samara may have super ninja'do me in some points lol!

[Dirgegun]

I'm the kind of person who has the ability to hate video game characters with a passion. Hated Fenris, hated Merril, hated Sister Petrice, hated the mother in the chantry in Lothering DAO because she wouldn't give me the damn key for Sten's cage, hated Isolde, Hated Isolde's son, Hated Carver, hated Warden-Bethany, Hated Hawke's mom, Hated that elf girl in awakening, HATED Logain, and hated Anora....and that's just Dragon Age games. :3

 

*edit* Mmm..almost forgot Howe. Hate that guy too.

 

Oh, I can HATE video game characters with a passion, but, for some reason, that just doesn't translate over to DA or Mass Effect or Bioware games in general. Instead I find myself appreciating all the characters for what they are instead of being all "You little sh!t, why do I have to put up with you for the entire game?!"

 

Hell, maybe it's the roleplay aspect that leads me to be like that? While I'm just appreciating the characters for how they're written, my Warden/Hawke/Shepard are free to hate who they wanna hate without my personal feelings clouding how much I can roleplay. I honestly have no idea. o.o

[Jynxed_]

Oh, I can HATE video game characters with a passion, but, for some reason, that just doesn't translate over to DA or Mass Effect or Bioware games in general. Instead I find myself appreciating all the characters for what they are instead of being all "You little sh!t, why do I have to put up with you for the entire game?!"

 

Hell, maybe it's the roleplay aspect that leads me to be like that? While I'm just appreciating the characters for how they're written, my Warden/Hawke/Shepard are free to hate who they wanna hate without my personal feelings clouding how much I can roleplay. I honestly have no idea. o.o

I usually roleplay characters as myself, how I personally would respond to the situation at hand, or the people around you, so I guess that's why I personally can really hate characters IRL as well as in-game.

[Kirrahe1]

Sorry. I meant that, if there had been more time for development, would Cullen's doubts have had a more natural progression from "I'm not sure..." to "STAND DOWN MEREDITH!" Then it got me thinking... If Cullen was experiencing doubts at a more natural pace and Hawke was pro-mage, might he have come to her o warn of things? Or to ask for help? Like how Thrask does? I would think questioning himself would lead him to do... I dunno, something - no matter how small - before The Last Straw. I just think it would have been neat. He clearly wondered about the Order before it all went to hell so why not show us this a bit more concretely? He brought the trouble regarding Aveline to Hawke when I doubt Meredith would have approved because I can see her wanting control of the guard. So why weren't his doubts more... visible? I wonder if it was just due to time constraints and rushed release of the game.

Do you remember the line when he says "I defended you when Thrask (I think it was thrask) started whispering that you were crazy!" Or something like that. I really think he was trying to keep a lid on people questioning and rebelling against Meredith. So going to a total wild card source outside the order and warning him about her would not only be major mutiny but could potentially make the situation way worse. (Mutiny may not be the right word)