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[Sable Rhapsody]

I really love Anders as well. I mean it's weird because I both strongly disagree with some of his ways and empathize greatly with him. I absolutely hated what he did in DA2 and I didn't much care for his personality in Awakening (*ducks tomatoes*) besides maybe some of his humor. I just felt drawn by that character for some reason. I've often thought if I met someone like him in real life, I'd be hard pressed to give them more than a moment of my time cos they'd be just too high maintenance. It's just really weird for me.

 

It's not weird at all.  This is pretty much how I feel about Anders, a simultaneous mix of strong empathy and "ZOMG I WANT TO STRANGLE YOU!"  It's very confusing  But any character who can evoke such emotional extremes is in my book an awesome character.  In general, I tend to like characters who sharply divide the fandom: Miranda Lawson, Anders, Cullen, Morrigan, etc.

[Iakus]

 

It wasn't justified; it was wholly unnecessary. Only demons had to be killed. As is the case for all Annulments; that's why it's never justified, because the right wouldn't be necessary if demons were the only beings you were killing.

 

 

It turned out not to be necessary, but it was justified.  The Rite of Annullment is invoked when a Circle is found to be beyond saving:  the last line of defense for the Templars.  It it is very, very rarely invoked (what a dozen times in a thousand years?) 

 

In the case of Ferelden, the Templars were barely holding back the demons, who were rampaging through the tower and possessing mages left and right.  It's only because of the aid of the Warden and the personal assurances of Irving that the Annullment was made unnecessary.

 

And even then, the Warden can point out that demons may still be lying dormant in some of the mages.  Irving will agree to that and have the mages put into voluntary seclusion until they can be examined by outside sources (it's the only way to get Templar support without anulling the Circle)  CUllen, especially given his firsthand experiences, had every right to be concerned.

 

 

And many things more. How many does he realize? Like his apologetics for Tranquility, even the Tranquil Solution.

 

You realize that the Rite of Tranquility is meant to be an alternative to killing mages, right?  It's supposed to be a way to spare a mage who can't handle their power without putting them to the sword.  And there appear to be very clear rules on who is to be made Tranquil.  It's still obviously a highly flawed answer, but that's why Divine Justina was looking for another alternative.

 

As for the Tranquil Solution, I don't think Cullen was for it, or even took it seriously.  All he says is "some have made an argument for it"  And mentions it was shot down by both the Grand Cleric and Meredith (before she became the mayor of Crazytown)  Cullen seems to be for Tranquility (again, as a means of sparing a mage's life who cannot handle their powers or demonic temptation) but not as a "Solution"

[Adela]

Late to this but happy birthday MacyNell!!! Hope you had lots of fun

[CuriousArtemis]

Hmmm... I'm no longer blinded by thoughts of romancing our dear boy so to be honest I tend to agree with Xil. But then I hate the Circle and everything it stands for. Do I hate Cullen, of course not!!! In fact that is why I love him. He's so flawed. He's a good guy but he's a product of his environment.

I will admit the "thing" comment makes me uncomfortable; hopefully DAI Cullen will be a little more mature than that, although tbh I don't see myself interacting with him much.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think he was referring to the Warden, per se, but perhaps something along the lines of "a happy life with the Warden" - that would be called a "thing".

 

I always felt so bad for the other templar who thought the desire demon was his wife, and that he had a family. It was so sad to kill him, but better than to let the demon have her way with him

Right, but then he refers to "a mage of all things," which damages that interpretation for me.

 

Also, I always let those two live. They aren't attacking me, and the templar is doomed regardless.

 

 

He even call all the other hypothetical desires 'things'. Does he dehumanize everything and everyone?
Isn't it possible to say in english, for example, 'the only thing i want is a baby?' It can be said in Italian, and it refers to women and men as well. It's not means as debumanizing. Or he might have referring to his love for her.
Anyway, you're talking about a person who was tormented for weeks. I don't expect him to be sane at this point.

He might not be of sound mind, but that sort of leads into him not being a good person at that point. And he continues to dehumanize mages all throughout DA2.

 

 

Wouldn't this enter in the Kirkwall thing ?

Possibly. We'll have to see.

 

 

It turned out not to be necessary, but it was justified.  The Rite of Annullment is invoked when a Circle is found to be beyond saving:  the last line of defense for the Templars.  It it is very, very rarely invoked (what a dozen times in a thousand years?) 

 

In the case of Ferelden, the Templars were barely holding back the demons, who were rampaging through the tower and possessing mages left and right.  It's only because of the aid of the Warden and the personal assurances of Irving that the Annullment was made unnecessary.

 

And even then, the Warden can point out that demons may still be lying dormant in some of the mages.  Irving will agree to that and have the mages put into voluntary seclusion until they can be examined by outside sources (it's the only way to get Templar support without anulling the Circle)  CUllen, especially given his firsthand experiences, had every right to be concerned.

Seventeen times in seven hundred. One case of institutionalized genocide (or mass murder, if you prefer) every 41 years.

 

And the Right of Annulment isn't necessary to kill demons. All the templars needed was reinforcements to fight the demons, not permission to murder every last mage. And Cullen is emotionally and mentally compromised and is a wholly unfit judge. In any case, the Warden is completely wrong if they do that.

 

 

You realize that the Rite of Tranquility is meant to be an alternative to killing mages, right?  It's supposed to be a way to spare a mage who can't handle their power without putting them to the sword.  And there appear to be very clear rules on who is to be made Tranquil.  It's still obviously a highly flawed answer, but that's why Divine Justina was looking for another alternative.

 

As for the Tranquil Solution, I don't think Cullen was for it, or even took it seriously.  All he says is "some have made an argument for it"  And mentions it was shot down by both the Grand Cleric and Meredith (before she became the mayor of Crazytown)  Cullen seems to be for Tranquility (again, as a means of sparing a mage's life who cannot handle their powers or demonic temptation) but not as a "Solution"

And it's utterly fiendish; Cullen deserves no sympathy for such a stance. Also, what he said was "there is an argument to be made," not "some have made an argument."

[Panda]

I guess this "thing" thing is kind of language problem. I can't get my mind how it's bad. In other hand I live in culture and language where it's okay to refer person with "it" (in spoken language, it's not grammatically right). Maybe it depends on translation as well since "thing" can mean: object or matter/issue (and lot of other things). I think I tend to think that he referred warden as matter rather than object and when I translate it to finnish it doesn't sound rude or dehumanizing to me.

[MacyNell]

Forgot to add: Happy Belated Birthday Macynell!

 

Thank you! 

 

Late to this but happy birthday MacyNell!!! Hope you had lots of fun

 

Thanks, Adela!  I did have a great day!

[jtav]

I've heard "Something I can't have" in the context of unrequited love plenty of times. I wouldn't be too hard on him. Nor do I find Annulment unthinkable within the context of Broken Circle and would probably do it myself if not for gameplay considerations.

[Boudicae]

Right, but then he refers to "a mage of all things," which damages that interpretation for me.

 

 

Again, I feel that this is a misinterpretation, I hear something more like, "Of all the things for me to do, to fall in love with a Mage!". English-speakers take tons of shortcuts that could change the meaning of their sentence if someone was in the mood to nit-pick, but I think that it is important to attempt to understand the spirit behind the words, rather than keep a legalistic hawk-eye out for any words that could possibly be considered offensive if taken a certain way.  

 

I believe that everone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but I don't think that it is impossible to consider an alternative stance without necessarily subscribing to it.

[The Elder King]

Hmmm... I'm no longer blinded by thoughts of romancing our dear boy so to be honest I tend to agree with Xil. But then I hate the Circle and everything it stands for. Do I hate Cullen, of course not!!! In fact that is why I love him. He's so flawed. He's a good guy but he's a product of his environment.
I will admit the "thing" comment makes me uncomfortable; hopefully DAI Cullen will be a little more mature than that, although tbh I don't see myself interacting with him much.

I was never blinded by that .
I doactually support a Circle system, in general. I don't support the Chantry Circle. A lot of pro-Circles are neutral, and don't even support a Circle system controlled by the Chantry.

I did say in the past that my favourite solution would ****** some pro-templars and pro-mages at the same time. Though I don't recall if someone else from there discussed in my thread, other then Xil.

[Xilizhra]

Again, I feel that this is a (willful?) misinterpretation, I hear something more like, "Of all the things for me to do, to fall in love with a Mage!". English-speakers take tons of shortcuts that could change the meaning of their sentence if someone was in the mood to nit-pick, but I think that it is important to attempt to understand the spirit behind the words, rather than keep a legalistic hawk-eye out for any words that could possibly be considered offensive if taken a certain way.  

 

I believe that everone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but I don't think that it is impossible to consider an alternative stance without necessarily subscribing to it.

Considered, don't subscribe. Especially given all his dehumanizing comments in DA2, such as "mages cannot be treated like people."

[Aunty Social]

So, all my hard work on my fiction and drawing for pg 3000, and I won't be here.  This'll be my last real day checking the Cullen thread in general

 

There's just too much debate for me heart any more.  I used to not mind a good debate... shot of adrenaline, thrill of the hunt, get points and win!  I used to be on the debate team

 

Sadly, when I get that competitive shot anymore, it causes chest pain and difficulty breathing because my BP is still much to high, and I'd rather not go back to the hospital when all I have to do is stop reading a forum  Pretty much, I'll be reading the twitter thread for tweets and that'll be it for BSN.  I'm just far too competitive for my own good lol.  It's leaving me a little lost to be honest... what am I going to do when I have to avoid the internetz?  

 

Thanks for being such a great group of people.  I will see you guys around in the future, I hope.

[jtav]

In universe, I support the status quo with the rather large caveat that the the templars need better oversight and for someone to come down hard when they abuse their charges.

[riverbanks]

I disagree. I don't think that Justice is dead, or that Vengeance was ever really the name of the spirit. (...)

Not going into the rest of the post lest this derails into yet another tired Anders thread; but, objectively speaking, the name of the spirit/demon is Vengeance, yes. It calls itself that, Anders calls it that, Anders' skill tree refers to it by that name. It's an ugly name for an ugly thing, but it is what it is.

Regardless, Justice or Vengeance, my point was that I personally want it far far away from Cullen, in response to the post that started this conversation. Cullen did not survive weeks worth of torture at the hands of desire demons and who knows what else through sheer strenght of will alone, only to end up in the hands of another spirit preying on his deepest fears and insecurities. His determination to never allow his spirit to be broken no matter what temptations or horrors be thrown his way is admirable, I'd hate to cheapen that with a Cullen so morally weakened that he'd be willing to do something that that goes so against everything he stands for as entering a pact with a spirit/demon, for whatever reasons he may be offered one.

Plus, (Asunder spoilers)

Spoiler

Evangeline already fills the "Templar possessed by spirit" irony/novelty checkbox. A possessed Cullen storyline would be twice redundant, borrowing too much from Evangeline and Anders to feel uniquely his.

In any case, the Warden is completely wrong if they do that.

I'd be wary of making absolute statements like this, because it veers very close to "only my opinion is right" or "the only valid way to play the game is the way I play it," both of which are disrespectful to players who have other thoughts on the subject or make other choices in their games for whatever reasons they may have. As R2 said in an earlier post, we're many different people here and all come into the discussion with different points of view, we don't want to disregard or invalidate anyone's experience with the game.

[MacyNell]

So, all my hard work on my fiction and drawing for pg 3000, and I won't be here.  This'll be my last real day checking the Cullen thread in general

 

There's just too much debate for me heart any more.  I used to not mind a good debate... shot of adrenaline, thrill of the hunt, get points and win!  I used to be on the debate team

 

Sadly, when I get that competitive shot anymore, it causes chest pain and difficulty breathing because my BP is still much to high, and I'd rather not go back to the hospital when all I have to do is stop reading a forum  Pretty much, I'll be reading the twitter thread for tweets and that'll be it for BSN.  I'm just far too competitive for my own good lol.  It's leaving me a little lost to be honest... what am I going to do when I have to avoid the internetz?  

 

Thanks for being such a great group of people.  I will see you guys around in the future, I hope.

Jeeze, I'm really sorry to hear this.  You'll be missed! 

[CuriousArtemis]

I was never blinded by that .

Oh that's true Well, I was mainly speaking for myself. I don't mean to say anyone is blinded by love here. But I may have been, a little bit. All these little flaws are just what makes him a good character though.

[Boudicae]

Considered, don't subscribe. Especially given all his dehumanizing comments in DA2, such as "mages cannot be treated like people."

Well, I think both of us have made up our minds

[Xilizhra]

Not going into the rest of the post lest this derails into yet another tired Anders thread; but, objectively speaking, the name of the spirit/demon is Vengeance, yes. It calls itself that, Anders calls it that, Anders' skill tree refers to it by that name. It's an ugly name for an ugly thing, but it is what it is.

"I am Justice. Anders has told you of me."

 

Also, Justice isn't crazy at all while in the Fade, for some reason. Maybe it's purely when acting through Anders' tainted form that he goes bad. At any rate, I still rather like him.

[CuriousArtemis]

Jeeze, I'm really sorry to hear this.  You'll be missed! 

Agreed, but your health is what's important sometimes just a break helps.

[The Elder King]

"I am Justice. Anders has told you of me."
 
Also, Justice isn't crazy at all while in the Fade, for some reason. Maybe it's purely when acting through Anders' tainted form that he goes bad. At any rate, I still rather like him.

We don't know if it's Anders' taint or his rage. I guess if we ever meet a Rivaini seer we might know more.

[Aunty Social]

I'll miss you guys too.  I'm just too dash-ed competitive.  I'd like to say it's something I could just easily overcome, but I was raised in a competition against my siblings basically, so 20 years of upbringing don;t just go out the window when you want to keep on reading about one of your favorite characters  

 

And it's not even just the BSN, it's pretty much everywhere I go.  And it's not even really anyone else, it's me!  (kicks dirt)  Stupid issues.  

 

I will miss you guys so much.  My days are going to be much harder to get through because of how awesome you guys are  I wish I could just skip over the posts that are like debates, but pretty much anything can trigger that for me.  Its the Fight or Flight response and I must always fight... Go on the hunt!  Destroy the competition!  Not that I actually do, and I pretty much don't ever actually debate anything, but the trigger right now is enough to cause pain, and numbness down my left arm, so I must do what is best for me.

 

I love you Macy, and R2, and Lola, and Eric, and Morie, and loominous, and .... this could go on forever... I love all you guys.  You're the bestest

[Xilizhra]

We don't know if it's Anders' taint or his rage. I guess if we ever meet a Rivaini seer we might know more.

Given that Justice can be directly controlled by Corypheus, I'm reasonably sure it's the taint.

[Iakus]

 

Seventeen times in seven hundred. One case of institutionalized genocide (or mass murder, if you prefer) every 41 years.

 

Or one case of mages overwhelmed by demons or blood magic to such a degree that it was no longer possible to tell friend from foe.  We have no way of knowing.

 

 

And the Right of Annulment isn't necessary to kill demons. All the templars needed was reinforcements to fight the demons, not permission to murder every last mage. And Cullen is emotionally and mentally compromised and is a wholly unfit judge. In any case, the Warden is completely wrong if they do that.

 

But the RIte is necessary to kill an entire Circle full of abominations.  Yes, Cullen was emotionally compromised.  He had been the plaything of demons for weeks or more (who knows what he had been forced to eat and drink during that time  ) And saw people he knew, friends, even, literally become monsters before his eyes.  The very idea of that happening again terrifies him, even years later.

 

And while the Warden may be wrong, Irving does agree with the asseement.  So it's a case of hindsight being 20/20

 

 

And it's utterly fiendish; Cullen deserves no sympathy for such a stance. Also, what he said was "there is an argument to be made," not "some have made an argument."

 

Cullen deserves no sympathy for being in favor of an alternative to killing mages?  And his words amoun tot the same thing.  He does not believe in the Tranquility Solution and sees it primarily as an academic exercise with no possibility of ever really happening.

[Reaverwind]

"I am Justice. Anders has told you of me."

 

Also, Justice isn't crazy at all while in the Fade, for some reason. Maybe it's purely when acting through Anders' tainted form that he goes bad. At any rate, I still rather like him.

 

I never liked him. He already showed his true colors in Awakening.

[The Elder King]

Given that Justice can be directly controlled by Corypheus, I'm reasonably sure it's the taint.

Justice is still in a tainted body. He'd control Justice regardless of the taint affecting him.
We did see that Wynne, when angered, nearly lost control as well. I stick with both options being equally plausible until we know more.