138917 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I do as well, if it helps any.  Then again, I generally think the templar order and the Circle serve a very necessary and positive function, though there needs to be better checks and balances, as both Tevinter and Kirkwall prove in each direction.  Thus, it's easy for me to believe that Cullen was trying his best to find a way to protect everyone involved.  If you believe that the Circle and the order are, by their nature, pretty much evil and oppressive, you're unlikely to agree, of course.

 

Then again, my impressions were from playing DA: O but watching play through videos of DA2, so there's that.

I do believe such; certainly I believe the Templar Order is, with the Circle having an extremely difficult time of leaving it.

[serenai]

 

It's the mark of a non-sociopath, to be sure. But I'd call him more a potentially good person than one who actually is good.

 

It's that potential that is so interesting to me - I want to see where he (er.. the writers) take it. If he balls' it up (again) I'll be in line to string him up from the nearest yard arm. Perhaps that's something the Inquisitor can influence? Something along the lines of Garrus in ME, but more in-depth?

[The Elder King]

It's that potential that is so interesting to me - I want to see where he (er.. the writers) take it. If he balls' it up (again) I'll be in line to string him up from the nearest yard arm. Perhaps that's something the Inquisitor can influence? Something along the lines of Garrus in ME, but more in-depth?

I don't know. It was hinted that he's already changed. And if this fan dialogue is accurate (http://dgaider.tumbl...d-and-evil-come) he recognized his past errors.

[Tishina]

I think it's less that he IS good than that he is genuinely trying to be, and will probably admit now that he's made some bad mistakes. The fact he apparently will acknowledge mistakes and try to change keeps him from falling into the trap of fanatics. There is no historical "hero" who doesn't have some darker moments of character; I tend to most respect the ones who acknowledged them and tried to change.

[Lady Shayna]

I do believe such; certainly I believe the Templar Order is, with the Circle having an extremely difficult time of leaving it.

[Xilizhra]

I think it's less that he IS good than that he is genuinely trying to be, and will probably admit now that he's made some bad mistakes. The fact he apparently will acknowledge mistakes and try to change keeps him from falling into the trap of fanatics. There is no historical "hero" who doesn't have some darker moments of character; I tend to most respect the ones who acknowledged them and tried to change.

Out of curiosity, does that include Anders?

[Lady Shayna]

I know. Which is why I think unlikely we'll see eye to eye on this. I don't believe Cullen has had, shall we say, an even keel, but I think he's significantly above merely "not a sociopath". Not sure that there's a point in discussing it at length, though, especially before the release of the game.

Based on the DA2 videos I've watched, the game was pretty heavy handed at presenting how horrible both mages and templars could be at the extremes.

Edit: bleach. So much for my first attempt at posting from a phone. Sorry about that.

[Reaverwind]

I'm indifferent as to whether Cullen is 'good' or not. He's interesting because he keeps having his perceptions challenged, and appears to be willing to adjust those perceptions. When we first meet him in DA:O, he expresses some doubt over the Order, but never understands the why of their existence, doesn't understand why magic is rightfully feared, and the depths that fear can drive people to. Toward the end, he understands that fear, and begins to believe in the Order's purpose unequivocally. What we see in DA2 is Cullen slowly learning that the Order isn't infallible, and the world isn't as black & white as he thought - that templars can and will really screw things up. 

[Tishina]

Out of curiosity, does that include Anders?

While I sympathize with Anders, he's really Anders-Justice/Vengeance. Unless Vengeance can be excised, I don't think Anders is redeemable. And while he may or may not actually regret what he did, he DID fall into the trap of a fanatic. I'm not sure even if Vengeance is excised that he could ever be trusted; I think Vengeance's influence on his personality could be permanent. Which is too bad, I rather liked the Anders of DAA.

[JonasTheBloodMage]

I really enjoy Cullen's take on dragon age series, I know i'll always take cullen with my female mage inquesitor (they will romance because she needs a really good guy to be with). I enjoy cullens view on the templar order and the mages plus it's fun with having a female mage warden or male/female Hawke.

[JonasTheBloodMage]

While I sympathize with Anders, he's really Anders-Justice/Vengeance. Unless Vengeance can be excised, I don't think Anders is redeemable. And while he may or may not actually regret what he did, he DID fall into the trap of a fanatic. I'm not sure even if Vengeance is excised that he could ever be trusted; I think Vengeance's influence on his personality could be permanent. Which is too bad, I rather liked the Anders of DAA.

I belive so too Tishina but I can't stop a part of myself from having a dislike for him becasue his action killed alot of mages and destroyed the circle in Kirkwall(sp?), I know Vengence must have had a huge part to play when changing anders because I remember that funny guy talking about pie and women.

[Xilizhra]

While I sympathize with Anders, he's really Anders-Justice/Vengeance. Unless Vengeance can be excised, I don't think Anders is redeemable. And while he may or may not actually regret what he did, he DID fall into the trap of a fanatic. I'm not sure even if Vengeance is excised that he could ever be trusted; I think Vengeance's influence on his personality could be permanent. Which is too bad, I rather liked the Anders of DAA.

I would say, at the end of DA2, that Anders remains a better person than Cullen. Possibly DAI will change things, but I think Anders can hold things together.

[john-in-france]

Whether someone is good or not depends on the system within which they are working. Applying our own moral views to their vastly different system is not RPGing a character, it is a self insert.

 

Cullen would be considered lawful good under the rules of Thedas and the Chantry.

[john-in-france]

I would say, at the end of DA2, that Anders remains a better person than Cullen. Possibly DAI will change things, but I think Anders can hold things together.

 

We shall have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

If you want to debate Anders start a thread elsewhere, I'm sure you will get plenty of bites.

[Tishina]

Whether someone is good or not depends on the system within which they are working. Applying our own moral views to their vastly different system is not RPGing a character, it is a self insert.

 

Cullen would be considered lawful good under the rules of Thedas and the Chantry.

Very true. In fact, defying Meredith could have caused him to be expelled from the Templars by the Chantry and worse (if things hadn't gone to h**l in a handbasket at the same time) for disobeying orders, however wrong those orders were. Considering what happened with the explosion, I think we can assume he was in shock himself when Meredith first gave the orders for annulment. He's (fictional) human, not superhuman. I'm also not sure defying Meredith when she first gave the order would have resulted in anything except him losing the chance to try to save a few mages.

[QueenofFereldan]

Me, personally, I find Cullen the better person. He tried to do the right thing though he does make bad choices/mistakes. Anders, while I understand had Judtice inside him, will be hypocritical about Merrill's use of blood magic and even killed innocents for his cause...people who probably didn't want to be involved with the Mage-Templar struggle.

[Xilizhra]

Very true. In fact, defying Meredith could have caused him to be expelled from the Templars by the Chantry and worse (if things hadn't gone to h**l in a handbasket at the same time) for disobeying orders, however wrong those orders were. Considering what happened with the explosion, I think we can assume he was in shock himself when Meredith first gave the orders for annulment. He's (fictional) human, not superhuman. I'm also not sure defying Meredith when she first gave the order would have resulted in anything except him losing the chance to try to save a few mages.

A chance we never see him take if Hawke sides with the mages, note, and it's one he'd only succeed in if he got Hawke's support. If he joined Hawke, to actually protect the mages as I was fairly sure was somewhere in the templar mandate, he could have done a fair bit more good directly.

[Boudicae]

I think, Xil, part of the reason why you're not feeling satisfied with the level of debate you're getting for your viewpoints is because the same arguments you have, have been brought up every couple hundred pages in the Cullen threads pretty much since DA2 came out, and most people are just tired of seeing the same old stuff brought up repeatedly. Without new information, I don't think anyone is really going to change their minds at this point

[Reaverwind]

Very true. In fact, defying Meredith could have caused him to be expelled from the Templars by the Chantry and worse (if things hadn't gone to h**l in a handbasket at the same time) for disobeying orders, however wrong those orders were. Considering what happened with the explosion, I think we can assume he was in shock himself when Meredith first gave the orders for annulment. He's (fictional) human, not superhuman. I'm also not sure defying Meredith when she first gave the order would have resulted in anything except him losing the chance to try to save a few mages.

 

It likely would have resulted in him being executed on the spot. The Order deals rather harshly with insubordination. And his attempt to stop her later would have gone absolutely nowhere if a significant number of templars hadn't backed him. 

[Panda]

I would say, at the end of DA2, that Anders remains a better person than Cullen. Possibly DAI will change things, but I think Anders can hold things together.

 

Anders did quite good things during DA2 (healing sick and poor, and helping refugees) but the ending part kinda killed my view of him as "good person". Of cource he could strive to be better and not bomb buildings with people inside of them anymore after DA2 but idk if he repents what he did. Justice/Vengeance thrown into mix just makes it harder to say where he's going if he didn't die during DA2.

[Adela]

Out of curiosity, does that include Anders?

Even though I wasn't a big fan of Anders actions in DA2 I think even he could have been redeemed if given the option but since DA2 was mostly about  "white or black" and no gray , its a lot likely for ppl to  view only one side weather is good or bad and stick with it rather then ,   "see the big picture"  and see where both sides come from and "settle" on some middle ground of a compromise. But as i have said DA2 was all about extremes and picking sides.

All I want and hope from DAI is that we can come to a compromise and that Thedas is not  black and white all the time

[Tishina]

Even though I wasn't a big fan of Anders actions in DA2 I think even he could have been redeemed if given the option but since DA2 was mostly about  "white or black" and no gray , its a lot likely for ppl to  view only one side weather is good or bad and stick with it rather then ,   "see the big picture"  and see where both sides come from and "settle" on some middle ground of a compromise. But as i have said DA2 was all about extremes and picking sides.

All I want and hope from DAI is that we can come to a compromise and that Thedas is not  black and white all the time

Here, here! Being forced to the extremes was one of the reasons I never actually played DA2, just watched enough vids to have a good understanding of the events for DAI.

[CuriousArtemis]

I love both Anders and Cullen

[MacyNell]

I love both Anders and Cullen

Yeah, that's pretty much me, too.  I could even explain it so that it makes sense...but it would take several paragraphs...and, just, NOPE.  I'm kinda' ready to move on. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Yeah, that's pretty much me, too.  I could even explain it so that it makes sense...but it would take several paragraphs...and, just, NOPE.  I'm kinda' ready to move on. 

I also ship them, so....