138908 réponses à ce sujet

[wiccame]

nvm-misread   

[Xilizhra]

But it was the actions of Meredith that killed a lot of mages, not Cullen's.  You can't blame him for the actions of his superior officer. He went along with it of course because that is what he was ordered to do. In the pro templar ending you can see he is very clearly uncomfortable with the annulment. 

Jonas was referring to Anders there, not Cullen.

 

However, I can and will blame Cullen for his own actions. Or lack thereof. Complicity in genocide is a horrible thing in and of itself, and we've determined reasonably clearly that "following orders" is no excuse.

[CuriousArtemis]

I didn't think her Act 1 quest was that bad. She just wanted to use Ketojan as a scapegoat. She's a zealot gone wrong. No, Act 2 is where I began to despise her. Especially with her killing of Saemus Dunmar.

You dislike her because she was a bad person or a bad character?

[Hellion Rex]

In all honesty, for Cullen, I am most interested in how he reacts and has grown since he was made broken by Meredith's actions. I want to know what he has been up to in Kirkwall. I want to know how his beliefs have changed in the past five years. That will determine my opinion of him in the game.

[Panda]

There are actually very few characters I dislike. In the DA universe I can only think of Oghren.

 

I have quite many. I tend not to talk about them ^^

[Boudicae]

Jonas was referring to Anders there, not Cullen.

 

However, I can and will blame Cullen for his own actions. Or lack thereof. Complicity in genocide is a horrible thing in and of itself, and we've determined reasonably clearly that "following orders" is no excuse.

 

You don't like Cullen. Got it. Moving on...

[Hellion Rex]

You dislike her because she was a bad person or a bad character?

Bad person, I don't think she was a bad character. Hell, such an evocative reaction from me, makes me think she was written pretty well.

[Xilizhra]

You don't like Cullen. Got it. Moving on...

Well, this is the Cullen discussion thread...

[LadyDraven]

And why did this guy I just saved light himself on fire?! Yeah lol

I got so worried at this point, thinking I'd done something wrong or said something. I reloaded and tried again then I was straight on to wiki.

[SamaraDraven]

Using the same metrics, I tilt things more toward Anders because I believe he has a clearer picture of morality than Cullen, whose picture is badly fogged. It's not necessarily Cullen's fault, but his loyalty to the wrong side is more damaging, in my opinion, than Anders doing something terrible for the right one. Especially since Anders wants to fix things almost immediately afterward.

Fair point. I had Anders help me save the mages during a playthrough which wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't what he did was horrible. But the relationship was over. I consider intent to be very important here and Cullen's intent seems to be to protect. That he's a bit blind to what the right thing in this situation is, it's less damaging to me because of where his heart is at. Anders seems to me to have devolved into a "I'll take down the Chantry by force if I have to!" kind of stance. That he backpedals afterward works in his favor and means he's not irredeemable but I find it harder to get past the fact that he went there at all. A man who wishes to do good can be educated and reasoned with, hopefully. A man that accepts the horror of what he's planning as acceptable to advance his goals - no matter how right - is someone I would have a hard time trusting again. Most of Cullen's worst moments came directly after being traumatized in some way and being spoken in a fit of panic. Anders' worst moment comes after a time of careful contemplation and planning. Cullen's monocle may be fogged but he's trying to find that balance. I just don't see what Anders did in the same light. He's not wrong: the Chantry needs to taken down a peg. To me, that's the real evil in all of this.

[Xilizhra]

Fair point. I had Anders help me save the mages during a playthrough which wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't what he did was horrible. But the relationship was over. I consider intent to be very important here and Cullen's intent seems to be to protect. That he's a bit blind to what the right thing in this situation is, it's less damaging to me because of where his heart is at. Anders seems to me to have devolved into a "I'll take down the Chantry by force if I have to!" kind of stance. That he backpedals afterward works in his favor and means he's not irredeemable but I find it harder to get past the fact that he went there at all. A man who wishes to do good can be educated and reasoned with, hopefully. A man that accepts the horror of what he's planning as acceptable to advance his goals - no matter how right - is someone I would have a hard time trusting again. Most of Cullen's worst moments came directly after being traumatized in some way and being spoken in a fit of panic. Anders' worst moment comes after a time of careful contemplation and planning. Cullen's monocle may be fogged but he's trying to find that balance. I just don't see what Anders did in the same light. He's not wrong: the Chantry needs to taken down a peg. To me, that's the real evil in all of this.

The trouble is that some people have completely different conceptions of "good." Anders' match my own; the fact that he acknowledges some of his own actions as evil tells me that at least his perception is still intact, and only his emotions need to be kept in check; he doesn't need to be convinced, only calmed. Cullen, by contrast, seems to operate from a very different preconception of morality than I do, using primarily different values, and base values can be much harder to shift. The fact that Cullen is good by his own morality doesn't help me, because I see the base of his own morality as being the flawed part.

[meanieweenie]

You don't like Cullen. Got it. Moving on...

Let's try not to shut down someone just because of a conflicting opinion. It fosters bad feels and we like to be open to all here. 

[Boudicae]

Well, this is the Cullen discussion thread...

 

Except you don't seem too keen on actually discussing, it seems like you just want to make people hear your opinion and admit that it's the best opinion to have. I'm not really seeing a 2-way flow of ideas here.

[SamaraDraven]

You don't like Cullen. Got it. Moving on...

This isn't a Cullen appreciation thread. It's a place where he can be discussed from all perspectives. As long as everyone is respectful, anyone can offer their opinions in here.

[meanieweenie]

Then I'm sure you're familiar with  http://dorianpavus.deviantart.com/ ! 

I've not seen these! Dorian is very ... oiled up... in this particular art piece, isn't he? 

[Boudicae]

Let's try not to shut down someone just because of a conflicting opinion. It fosters bad feels and we like to be open to all here. 

 

I apologize if it sounded like I was shutting down someone just because of a differing viewpoint, this is definitely not my intention.

[Xilizhra]

Except you don't seem too keen on actually discussing, it seems like you just want to make people hear your opinion and admit that it's the best opinion to have. I'm not really seeing a 2-way flow of ideas here.

If I didn't think that my opinion was the best opinion to have, why would I have it? But I don't expect everyone else to just automatically bow to it, and am interested in the perspective of others.

[meanieweenie]

I apologize if it sounded like I was shutting down someone just because of a differing viewpoint, this is definitely not my intention.

It's all good. I think it helps us to be mindful, is all.

[Boudicae]

It's all good. I think it helps us to be mindful, is all.

 

It just feels like we're beating a dead horse in here I guess it's time to re-lurk then. See you guys for the page-3000 celebration!

[wiccame]

Jonas was referring to Anders there, not Cullen.

 

However, I can and will blame Cullen for his own actions. Or lack thereof. Complicity in genocide is a horrible thing in and of itself, and we've determined reasonably clearly that "following orders" is no excuse.

I know, I edited as soon as I noticed, will teach me to pay more attention. 

 

No bottom line is he WAS just a subordinate and he believed in the order that he had dedicated his life to. Does that mean he shouldn't question it? Of course not but because he believed so strongly in what he and Meredith and the rest of the order were about he was blind to the extremities that it was taking, it would have took a lot for him to see the other side. 

Lets face it most of the mages in Kirkwall were pretty far gone. Evelina, Huon, Thrask's daughter to name but a few, that's not counting crazy Orsino. Even my pro mage Hawkes had a hard time making excuses for them. Sure some of them it was out of sheer desperation but still they weren't making a very good case for themselves.

Cullen struggled with his beliefs and questioned them throughout the game and stepped up when the final piece snapped into place. Ok maybe it took a little longer and if he had done it a bit sooner things might not have gone as far as they did. But I really can't see how he could have come to that conclusion earlier.

[Lady Shayna]

Jonas was referring to Anders there, not Cullen.

However, I can and will blame Cullen for his own actions. Or lack thereof. Complicity in genocide is a horrible thing in and of itself, and we've determined reasonably clearly that "following orders" is no excuse.

If you're referring to the Annulment of the Circle, I wouldn't consider it any different than the destruction of the Chantry. Many innocent people died. Arguments are made on why it was deemed necessary by those involved. Is it better or worse to be ordered to do it, or to decide on it after weighing all options? Can you be a good person and do either? Can you participate in either and redeem yourself later?

I know what my answers are, but they are not easy questions to answer, and can understand others thinking differently.

[PrincessSparklefists]

Hey guys! Thanks for the messages a few of you sent me. Would someone be willing to send me an update on what's happened this past week, I've been a bit all over the place!

[Xilizhra]

I know, I edited as soon as I noticed, will teach me to pay more attention. 

 

No bottom line is he WAS just a subordinate and he believed in the order that he had dedicated his life to. Does that mean he shouldn't question it? Of course not but because he believed so strongly in what he and Meredith and the rest of the order were about he was blind to the extremities that it was taking, it would have took a lot for him to see the other side. 

Lets face it most of the mages in Kirkwall were pretty far gone. Evelina, Huon, Thrask's daughter to name but a few, that's not counting crazy Orsino. Even my pro mage Hawkes had a hard time making excuses for them. Sure some of them it was out of sheer desperation but still they weren't making a very good case for themselves.

Cullen struggled with his beliefs and questioned them throughout the game and stepped up when the final piece snapped into place. Ok maybe it took a little longer and if he had done it a bit sooner things might not have gone as far as they did. But I really can't see how he could have come to that conclusion earlier.

I could have sympathized with him to a small extent before the Annulment. When he joined that, all sympathy evaporated. If I could have him and every other templar in Kirkwall stand trial for that after the war, I would, but perhaps his serving the Inquisition will be a sufficient debt to the people of Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

If you're referring to the Annulment of the Circle, I wouldn't consider it any different than the destruction of the Chantry. Many innocent people died. Arguments are made on why it was deemed necessary by those involved. Is it better or worse to be ordered to do it, or to decide on it after weighing all options? Can you be a good person and do either? Can you participate in either and redeem yourself later?

I know what my answers are, but they are not easy questions to answer, and can understand others thinking differently.

I should point out that the deaths of innocents were not the goal of blowing up the Chantry, and that the number of casualties would logically be far lower.

 

I wouldn't call Anders a "good" person at that moment, but I think that he'd be easier to redeem than Cullen.

[SamaraDraven]

The trouble is that some people have completely different conceptions of "good." Anders' match my own; the fact that he acknowledges some of his own actions as evil tells me that at least his perception is still intact, and only his emotions need to be kept in check; he doesn't need to be convinced, only calmed. Cullen, by contrast, seems to operate from a very different preconception of morality than I do, using primarily different values, and base values can be much harder to shift. The fact that Cullen is good by his own morality doesn't help me, because I see the base of his own morality as being the flawed part.

That's the part of Cullen I see as changing, though. My moral compass holds that magic needs some kind of oversight but not anything like what the Chantry does with the Circles. I saw Cullen as being the best person for heralding that new ideal. He was more moderate before. And he hasn't slipped into what Meredith was. He isn't 100% accepting of how things are. He seems to struggle with it internally. And finally acts. That's the part I'm most intrigued about: to see what he thinks now and if he can perceive his mistakes. I doubt he'd ever come all the way around to Anders ideal. But I think he can come a lot closer to that compromise between. And compromise is the only way, I see the conflict ever ending. Anders inflamed it instead. I can understand his position but I don't agree with full autonomy of mages. They shouldn't be denied families, or homes or the right to live as they wish; but I so think some oversight or laws pertaining to the use of their gifts are necessary because mages are still human and not all humans are good. But the mages shouldn't be treated as they are. As I said: Anders isn't wrong but he's also not right. Same goes for Cullen.