138957 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

No, it really wasn't. You can make it black and white if that's as far as your character's morality axis reaches, but it's not a black/white dichotomy in itself.

 

Every choice, in either previous games, was a roleplaying choice. That's what makes an RPG - how your character views the world around them, not how the world presents itself to the player. There is no black/white, right/wrong, good/evil in roleplay, there is only how each of your characters chooses to approach their moral dilemmas.

 

OMG Well I already explained this a few pages ago, but I'll say it again lol The game literally gives the player no reason to murder the entire Circle. There's no in-game evidence to suggest that the Circle is made up entirely of blood mages. Meredith sees Anders blow up the Chantry, then turns to Hawke and says, help me annul the Circle. And annul apparently means kill everyone, down to the last wee apprentice. Unless you're playing a super evil character, you do have to do some headcanoning to take that route.

[Sister Goldring]

Yeah, roleplaying a character who can justify the execution is great.  I absolutely support it and have in fact done so myself but the moral question posed I think is about as black and white as it gets.

 

You literally have to kill people for something they haven't done.

 

I don't get the ambiguity of the morality here.  There isn't one, unless you don't accept the argument of the sanctity of life.  It's a bad action.

 

Can you successfully justify undertaking a 'bad action' for the greater good is the more interesting question.  Some of my Hawke's can and most of them can't but either way I as the player outside of Hawke can see the injustice of the annulment.  

[riverbanks]

Unless you're playing a super evil character, you do have to do some headcanoning to take that route.

 

You have to headcanon every choice you make. That's why it's called roleplaying - you're playing the role of a character (even if that character is your self-insert), every single choice you make will have a reasoning behind it. From feeding a prisoner to saving a Circle, you will always reason it out. You even just exposed a long reasoning right there of why you would choose this or that side - that's the same amount of reasoning anyone would make for taking the opposite path.

 

In any case, I won't go into discussion of my reasonings because I hate how topic keeps dominating discussion about Cullen (when it's only marginal to the whole of his character), but I at least ask for cutting it out with the "unless you're playing a super evil character," because I can assure you it is absolutely possible to roleplay a perfectly good person who sides with the Templars, and an incredibly evil person who sides the mages. That one choice does not define a character's morality (leave alone their player's), and it's very small-minded to presume that "good" people will always side with mages and only "evil" people will side with Templars. This kind of binary morality assigning only serves to alienate fans who take their roleplaying seriously with baseline blanket assumptions.

 

It's a roleplaying choice as much as any other in the game. There's no morality inherently assigned to it.

[Tishina]

I was about to ask, can we return to a discussion of Cullen and DAI? I think the ending of DA2 may have been beaten to a thin paste.

[The Elder King]

I'll ask the same question I asked in the Josephine's thread: what do you think Cullen's arc in the game will be about?

[SpiritMuse]

OMG Well I already explained this a few pages ago, but I'll say it again lol The game literally gives the player no reason to murder the entire Circle. There's no in-game evidence to suggest that the Circle is made up entirely of blood mages. Meredith sees Anders blow up the Chantry, then turns to Hawke and says, help me annul the Circle. And annul apparently means kill everyone, down to the last wee apprentice. Unless you're playing a super evil character, you do have to do some headcanoning to take that route.

One of my Hawkes was the ruthless, practical sort, and figured that the quickest way to nip this war in the bud was to Annul the circle. Innocents would die either way, but the mage side was easier to eradicate. He still thought Meredith was insane though, and wasn't at all surprised when she ended up turning on him, and everyone else, in the end.

Yeah, it still wasn't because he felt the mages actually deserved to be killed. Even Cullen balked at the plan, comparing it to the situation in Ferelden and concluding that things weren't as bad as that in Kirkwall.

By the way (or not, as it is the original topic), I'm already in love with DAI Cullen.

[CuriousArtemis]

In any case, I won't go into discussion of my reasonings because I hate how topic keeps dominating discussion about Cullen (when it's only marginal to the whole of his character), but I at least ask for cutting it out with the "unless you're playing a super evil character," because I can assure you it is absolutely possible to roleplay a perfectly good person who sides with the Templars, and an incredibly evil person who sides the mages. That one choice does not define a character's morality (leave alone their player's), and it's very small-minded to presume that "good" people will always side with mages and only "evil" people will side with Templars. This kind of binary morality assigning only serves to alienate fans who take their roleplaying seriously with baseline blanket assumptions.

 

Okay, first of all, relax; the conversation has been light-hearted but a few folks jumped in sounding all defensive. It's not a big deal; we're just talking about the game mechanics of DA2, not making sweeping statements about the moral compass of various fans lol

 

Seriously, I'd love to see how you can play a good character and make the decision to side with the templars. Do share! 

[SmilesJA]

I was about to ask, can we return to a discussion of Cullen and DAI? I think the ending of DA2 may have been beaten to a thin paste.

 

I know it's been argued for years!

[CuriousArtemis]

One of my Hawkes was the ruthless, practical sort, and figured that the quickest way to nip this war in the bud was to Annul the circle. Innocents would die either way, but the mage side was easier to eradicate. He still thought Meredith was insane though, and wasn't at all surprised when she ended up turning on him, and everyone else, in the end.

Yeah, it still wasn't because he felt the mages actually deserved to be killed. Even Cullen balked at the plan, comparing it to the situation in Ferelden and concluding that things weren't as bad as that in Kirkwall.

 

Tbh I'm not sure how innocents would die either way; if you elect to defend the Circle mages, who are technically innocent until proven guilty (cause no proof of their guilt has been offered at this point in time in the game), then it's kind of on the templars. I wouldn't consider any templar deaths "innocent" in that instance because they initiated the attack. 

 

But yeah a ruthless, practical Hawke willing to kill innocents is basically what I meant by evil  

[CuriousArtemis]

I know it's been argued for years!

 

Honestly, there's nothing left to say about Cullen either *shrugs* We've been talking about him for years now. Plus I don't mind talking about that decision in DA2 since I love the game and just enjoy talking about it (even if in this case I'm saying it's got some problems ). 

[riverbanks]

I'll ask the same question I asked in the Josephine's thread: what do you think Cullen's arc in the game will be about?

 

I can't even guess at what his character arc will be about, specially since David made that remark of "we had an idea for a story with him that seemed like it would be cool." Sounds so... ominous? I guess anything sounds ominous coming from Gaider, though.

 

One thing I'd like to see Cullen go into is how to live life in the real world after being under a strict military regime for most of his adult life. I know people in the military who can hardly cope with shore leave because the day's not clocked to the last minute with chores and time-for-this time-for-that. It'd be interesting to hear Cullen comment on how weird he's finding not having every second of his day accounted for. Then again he's probably still keeping himself busy through every second to keep himself from going insane with the boredom of pseudo-civillian life.

[lil yonce]

You have to headcanon every choice you make. That's why it's called roleplaying - you're playing the role of a character (even if that character is your self-insert), every single choice you make will have a reasoning behind it. From feeding a prisoner to saving a Circle, you will always reason it out. You even just exposed a long reasoning right there of why you would choose this or that side - that's the same amount of reasoning anyone would make for taking the opposite path.

 

In any case, I won't go into discussion of my reasonings because I hate how topic keeps dominating discussion about Cullen (when it's only marginal to the whole of his character), but I at least ask for cutting it out with the "unless you're playing a super evil character," because I can assure you it is absolutely possible to roleplay a perfectly good person who sides with the Templars, and an incredibly evil person who sides the mages. That one choice does not define a character's morality (leave alone their player's), and it's very small-minded to presume that "good" people will always side with mages and only "evil" people will side with Templars. This kind of binary morality assigning only serves to alienate fans who take their roleplaying seriously with baseline blanket assumptions.

 

It's a roleplaying choice as much as any other in the game. There's no morality inherently assigned to it.

I don't think you can be a good person when you murder innocents, no matter how justified the character may feel in doing it, and I think that's what CuriousArtemis is getting at too. And I disagree that the annulment is only a small part of Cullen's character. His arc thus far has been this: a sympathetic templar turned 180 against the mages, wholeheartedly embracing the ideology of a KC known exactly for her overzealousness, before a last second change of heart at the end of possibly his second annulment. I think its very important.

 

I'll ask the same question I asked in the Josephine's thread: what do you think Cullen's arc in the game will be about?

That he will realize the incredible error of his past mage hating ways and work for some sort of peace deal between the order and the circle as atonement.

[SmilesJA]

Honestly, there's nothing left to say about Cullen either *shrugs* We've been talking about him for years now. Plus I don't mind talking about that decision in DA2 since I love the game and just enjoy talking about it (even if in this case I'm saying it's got some problems ). 

 

We can always talk about his colored underwear. 

[The Elder King]

Cullen actually shown in the pro-Templar playthrough that he doesn't agree with the annulment.
I think he'll recognize he was wrong even before his arc, Judging by what Gaider said in response of a fan dialogue.

[Sister Goldring]

Ok, I'll play.

 

Here's my version of a good character that annuls the circle.

 

A Hawke who accepts and believes Meredith's assertion that the circle is irrevocably corrupt.  Hawke has had first hand experience of the seemingly endless bands of bloodmages terrorizing Kirkwall.  When Orsino is resistant to having the Circle searched, she believes he is covering up the extent of the Circles involvement in bloodmagic and the chaos that has been occuring.   The annulment is justified on those grounds regardless of Anders actions.  It is a terrible, tragic necessity.

 

And now I promise to stop talking about DA2  

[Tishina]

Hmm, rewatching the twitch from Monday. Do you think Harding works directly for Cullen? I think it's obvious that she isn't a diplomatic agent, but she seems a bit more militaristic than I'd expect Leliana's agents to be.

 

Edited: Maybe Leliana after all; that's who seems to receive her report afterwards.

[SmilesJA]

Ok, I'll play.

 

Here's my version of a good character that annuls the circle.

 

A Hawke who accepts and believes Meredith's assertion that the circle is irrevocably corrupt.  Hawke has had first hand experience of the seemingly endless bands of bloodmages terrorizing Kirkwall.  When Orsino is resistant to having the Circle searched, she believes he is covering up the extent of the Circles involvement in bloodmagic and the chaos that has been occuring.   The annulment is justified on those grounds regardless of Anders actions.  It is a terrible, tragic necessity.

 

And now I promise to stop talking about DA2  

 

Now you understand. 

[The Elder King]

Hmm, rewatching the twitch from Monday. Do you think Harding works directly for Cullen? I think it's obvious that she isn't a diplomatic agent, but she seems a bit more militaristic than I'd expect Leliana's agents to be.
 
Edited: Maybe Leliana after all; that's who seems to receive her report afterwards.

I think that Harding is in charge of the scouts, and that she'll work for both based on the situation. If I recall, the quest at Gamescon where she appeared was unlocked through Cullen's choice.

[riverbanks]

Hmm, rewatching the twitch from Monday. Do you think Harding works directly for Cullen? I think it's obvious that she isn't a diplomatic agent, but she seems a bit more militaristic than I'd expect Leliana's agents to be.

 

Edited: Maybe Leliana after all; that's who seems to receive her report afterwards.

 

Probably Leliana because she's a scout (....unless "Scout" is her name?? ). Which is a shame because I'm not using Leliana at all if I can avoid it in my first playthrough (Inquisitor Ari prefers playing Josie's political games or taking Cullen's direct military intervention to espionage and shadowboxing), so I'm probably not going to see much of that cutie pie. But I intend to see as much as I can of her with my qunari and dwarf 'quisitors. I'm definitely on the "Harding for companion and LI in DA4!" hype train.

 

We have been promised a hot Templar who is not Cullen, though! Maybe that will be Cullen's contact/right hand/errand boy like Harding is Leliana's? I sure wouldn't mind working between Cullen and Hot Templar through special assignments.   

[Tielis]

I can't even guess at what his character arc will be about, specially since David made that remark of "we had an idea for a story with him that seemed like it would be cool." Sounds so... ominous? I guess anything sounds ominous coming from Gaider, though.

 

One thing I'd like to see Cullen go into is how to live life in the real world after being under a strict military regime for most of his adult life. I know people in the military who can hardly cope with shore leave because the day's not clocked to the last minute with chores and time-for-this time-for-that. It'd be interesting to hear Cullen comment on how weird he's finding not having every second of his day accounted for. Then again he's probably still keeping himself busy through every second to keep himself from going insane with the boredom of pseudo-civillian life.

 

Okay, I just thought of something that evil DG would probably come up with.  

 

Cullen is an abomination.

[Tishina]

I'll ask the same question I asked in the Josephine's thread: what do you think Cullen's arc in the game will be about?

There are a lot of directions they could take it in, and maybe it will partly depend on worldstates? Lyrium addiction, past trauma, guilt for his role in Kirkwall, etc. I'm inclined to think he may still believe that Templars could serve a good purpose, but has serious concerns about the direction they've taken. If mages are essentially on a killing spree (as in killing anyone, not just Templars trying to catch them) then I'll just be happy if he's willing to give other mages the benefit of the doubt in those circumstances. He'll have changed from Kirkwall (that's what people do), but I get the impression that he's at a point that the inquisitor can encourage him to more flexibility or back to more rigid beliefs.

[CuriousArtemis]

OT Sims 4 stuff...

Spoiler

Does anyone know of a good resource telling you how to control the game??? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to switch between sims, move furniture, and other seemingly ridiculously simple stuff. I can't find a guide anywhere though.

[Tishina]

Probably Leliana because she's a scout (....unless "Scout" is her name?? ). Which is a shame because I'm not using Leliana at all if I can avoid it in my first playthrough (Inquisitor Ari prefers playing Josie's political games or taking Cullen's direct military intervention to espionage and shadowboxing), so I'm probably not going to see much of that cutie pie. But I intend to see as much as I can of her with my qunari and dwarf 'quisitors. I'm definitely on the "Harding for companion and LI in DA4!" hype train.

 

We have been promised a hot Templar who is not Cullen, though! Maybe that will be Cullen's contact/right hand/errand boy like Harding is Leliana's? I sure wouldn't mind working between Cullen and Hot Templar through special assignments.   

Yes, I'm quickly becoming a Harding fan (that cocky look on her face when she took down the mage and templar...)

 

I was thinking the earlier gameplay showed her working for Cullen, so maybe the agents don't work for a set person. But yes, Cullen with a hot Templar right hand man would be great eye candy (especially if you can flirt a little). Odd, they dropped hints about him, but we haven't seen a mention of him since.

[Sister Goldring]

No, I always understood.  My position hasn't changed at all.

 

To annul the circle because of Anders actions is fundamentally a black and white moral decision.  In order to annul the circle my good character had to change the reason for the annulment to a morally justifiable position.  They are all evil, bloodmages and as such the lawfully sanctioned response is annulment.

 

Roleplaying is enjoyable and we can explore many characters and their reactions and responses but the reasons Meredith gives for annulment in her denouncement are pretty damn morally bankrupt.

 

Anyway, I promised that I'd stop the DA2 talk.  

[lil yonce]

@TheElderKing; But he partakes in the annulment anyway, and that's hard to justify to me, especially so with his wavering. And, oh yes, that fan dialogue, that's right, though I think the interview with his writer said he was still processing things?

 

Well, anyways, let me modify: Cullen will have realized the incredible error of his past mage hating ways and work for some sort of peace deal between the order and the circle as atonement. (I read atonement into his careful handling of his troops also.) And let me add, he will become a discerning leader with confidence in judgment borne of hard-learned lessons and trust in a deeply personal and newly centered morality. He will have to reinvent himself, I think. Convince people to view him beyond his role as KC in Kirkwall, at least. And by the game's end, he will believe in caution toward magic for the benefit of both mundane and mage, but he won't identify very strongly as a templar, or perhaps even at all anymore, finally becoming his own man. And I think you may get a better look at this development if you romance him with a mage. Prediction finished.