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[Owlfruit Potion]

And there I see the problem.
 
If you, me or anyone for that matter wishes to make a Fanfic about your character and their romance, by all means do so and I applaud you for the hard work put in to doing so.
 
However when anyone has to make a Fanfic about something that obviously should have been in the game, that to me is a clear read light of the developers being lazy, AKA cutting corners.

I have to respectfully disagree with most of this post. Devs writing a story that raises new questions = devs being lazy? Putting aside the fact that his romance was a late addition and everything we got is bonus content, in no medium other than a book or maybe a TV series are storytellers ever going to be able to show every plot point / reaction the audience would like to see.
 

Don't get me wrong the Cullen romance is good and offers a lot but as much as it offers there is a lot missing too.
 
*No conversation about your tumble into the Abyss and getting Cullen's insight.

Do other LIs give theirs? What unique insight would Cullen really be qualified to provide here other than that he was worried about you, which he tells you on numerous other occasions?
 

*No aftermath of what happens to Cullen if you choose to let him take or not take lyrium.

I do agree that the lyrium situation was a disappointing unfired Chekhov's gun.
 

*No clear dialogue between you and Cullen about what exactly happened to him in the Circle Tower, just an over view of what we already knew.

If they had done this there would be people flipping out about spending more word budget on Amell/Surana.
 

*No change in the kiss scene as the romance progresses. It still makes Cullen look hesitant even after smexy time given off the wrong feel.

Were we watching the same scene? The one where he breaks it off first and gives her a smug "that's all you get for now" grin as he pulls away?
 

*No gift to be given to Cullen.

I believe Brianne said this was a deliberate inversion of the rest of the LIs receiving a gift from you, because Cullen is a giving guy.
 

*No smexy time with him whenever you choose.

The devs are lazy for not giving us a new sex cutscene that we could watch on demand, or just for not giving us the DA:O style fade to black on demand? The latter didn't do much for me and if we were to get a new romance cutscene the former isn't what I'd hope they'd spend the zots on.
 

*No companions making comments about the romance while you wander in the open wilderness.

OK, I hear this one too (not that there are none, I understand there's at least Cole/Solas travel banter about it; but more would have been great). I assume it was another function of his being a late addition, but it also makes more sense for companions to talk about a romance when both parties are present.

[Scintillla]

Just cathing up to the thread. I get everything that you guys are saying about budget, but some of these situations were pretty important. 

[CuriousArtemis]

I think that was my biggest letdown of the game. I mean, in Origins, I felt like my choices actually meant something to other characters and definitely coloured the way the story played out. In this game, it just didn't seem to matter. Who's going to rule Orlais? Ah, whoever is fine. Mages or templars? Doesn't matter because the people who come to stay with you (Fiona or Barris) just stand around and don't have much of an opinion on things even if they're supposed to be your partners. At the risk of sounding crazy, I'd have happily waited another year for the game.

 

Yes yes yes ... it's like you're in my head  But yes. Yes x 100. 

 

Totally not me being bitter about the m/m situation. I knew about that going in. I was counting on other things to excite/entertain me. They just weren't there.

 

The "Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts" quest was probably the biggest let down in the whole game. I can't even imagine what I would've thought had I not read the book. 100% confusion and wondering why I just wasted several hours on this thing.

[riverbanks]

True, I just don't know how well that would fly, though, with the child being a human.  Well, it would work for the drama... hmm... *thinks about it*

 

Would largely depend on what Cerulion's Inquisitor's relationship with their Keeper is, and the clan's relationship with humans at large. I can't see Zathrian being open to such a thing, but Marethari was willing to train Feynriel in his magic, even though he was human.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Hmm, it's an interesting point. The thing is I can't imagine why Cullen want to send the kid elsewhere when Mom's there to teach her/him at home? It makes more sense with a Non-Mage Lavellan since neither Mom or Dad can be there to teach him/her how to control his/her power. I'll have to think about this... Hmmm...

 

Because of politics perhaps? Maybe the political opposistion towards the inquisitor has put it under pressure. And defying the law about sending a mage child to the circle could be seen as too much of a scandal and would damage the inquisition? Cullen argues that the child should be send to circle and that they could always see him/her again on occasion. While Lavellan might simply have had enough and the prospect of sending her child away is the last straw.

 

As for who this political opposistion could be. It could just be your typical alliance of nobles or perhaps you could suggest that Lavellan fears that if her child get sendt to the circle, Vivienne could end up taking advantage of it and have the child become almost a political hostage. Granted that would mean that Lavellan/Vivienne would not be on the best of terms by the time of the story. 

[Scintillla]

Oh I love this topic! I don't know how much we did in DAO and DA2 really impacted DAI unless someone can think of an amazing instance. Consequence for me would be like I picked Bhelen as the ruler in orzammar and since he believes in more trade with surfacers, he would've been a plot point in DAI or we would've gone there. Picking Harrowmont would've gotten us nothing. Or Anora as ruler is godawful and that would've impacted the dynamic in Ferelden. Those are majar decisions that I would've liked to see consequences for. It feels a bit like ME3, I saved the krogan and some other stuff I can't remember atm but it came down to walking right, left or straight. And yes I know that parallel is brought up aaaaall the time

Edit: oh and I let redcliffe burn and they still have the griffon statue in their square in DAI?? That was not cool, I was hoping for something dramatic but even a simple thing like NOT having the statue there would've made a statement. Thought that was weird...

 

Perhaps this is what they were hoping to achieve with World states? Or maybe am I crazy?

[QweenBeen]

Didn't they say future patches would add content to the game?

Also...I think the inclusion of multiple races forced the developers to sacrifice alot of things.

We have DLC to look forward to at least

I can see that they were trying to make up for the fact you could only be human in DA2 but they certainly over extended themselves. Being a quanari I feel could've been saved for when we move to northern thedas since they're just not a predominant race in the south.

Hopefully DLC in weisshaupt or wolf hunt will have more bearing on the future. I hope they bring the architect back!

[Melca36]

I can see that they were trying to make up for the fact you could only be human in DA2 but they certainly over extended themselves. Being a quanari I feel could've been saved for when we move to northern thedas since they're just not a predominant race in the south.

Hopefully DLC in weisshaupt or wolf hunt will have more bearing on the future. I hope they bring the architect back!

 

Definitely think we'll be seeing some fabulous DLC. I also think people should have never expected this game to be like Origins or DA2 for that matter.   The fourth Dragon Age will likely be completely different from this game.    

[kalasaurus]

Would largely depend on what Cerulion's Inquisitor's relationship with their Keeper is, and the clan's relationship with humans at large. I can't see Zathrian being open to such a thing, but Marethari was willing to train Feynriel in his magic, even though he was human.

Yeah, I forgot about Feynriel and Arianni (that was her name, right?).

 

If she returns to her clan, I wonder if they can avoid Cullen, though?  I can't picture him just letting Lavellan and his child go, and would likely actively search for them.  Hmm... more suggestions for the story it seems... *ponders*

[R2s Muse]

I think that was my biggest letdown of the game. I mean, in Origins, I felt like my choices actually meant something to other characters and definitely coloured the way the story played out. In this game, it just didn't seem to matter. Who's going to rule Orlais? Ah, whoever is fine. Mages or templars? Doesn't matter because the people who come to stay with you (Fiona or Barris) just stand around and don't have much of an opinion on things even if they're supposed to be your partners. At the risk of sounding crazy, I'd have happily waited another year for the game.

agree. Man, I can still remember agonizing over letting some mage dude named Jowan out of his cage. Agonizing!

[Fawna]

My dad always to me never to bite of more then I could chew. Think Bioware just try's to do to much then can never follow all the way threw with it. Oh well been waiting for that poor guy since the mages tower then what they put him threw in Kirkwall!! We always want more and wish they would of put more into him unless it continues haven't finished yet but believe we aren't done yet. It's kinda of wet your whistle get you hooked for the next one. We die hard will get it and the ones that are very mean about. I actually feel comfortable here to post. What I think is the late 90's and beginning of the 2000 era is when the gaming capped. Don't understand why it's all about the bottom $ now. Not them starting off with a great idea in there basement or parents garage. Times have changed so much so fast can't keep up!

Well going to get back to trying to play the game been looking on here all day. You guys are really great here thanks so much. Love the art work and story's. Like I tryed to post earlier buts in the thread trying to figure how to do that still there's a lot of great modders out there and fan writers that do the stuff cause they love it most would probably pay Bioware to voice someone lol to see there name in the credits. Just my thoughts though. You all have a good one!

[Scintillla]

agree. Man, I can still remember agonizing over letting some mage dude named Jowan out of his cage. Agonizing!

 

Yeah! I remember that. Although, I thought that he would have more of a role seeing that he was your "friend" in the Circle.

[Scintillla]

My dad always to me never to bite of more then I could chew. Think Bioware just try's to do to much then can never follow all the way threw with it. Oh well been waiting for that poor guy since the mages tower then what they put him threw in Kirkwall!! We always want more and wish they would of put more into him unless it continues haven't finished yet but believe we aren't done yet. It's kinda of wet your whistle get you hooked for the next one. We die hard will get it and the ones that are very mean about. I actually feel comfortable here to post. What I think is the late 90's and beginning of the 2000 era is when the gaming capped. Don't understand why it's all about the bottom $ now. Not them starting off with a great idea in there basement or parents garage. Times have changed so much so fast can't keep up!

Well going to get back to trying to play the game been looking on here all day. You guys are really great here thanks so much. Love the art work and story's. Like I tryed to post earlier buts in the thread trying to figure how to do that still there's a lot of great modders out there and fan writers that do the stuff cause they love it most would probably pay Bioware to voice someone lol to see there name in the credits. Just my thoughts though. You all have a good one!

 

Later Fawna! I should log out too and play the game lol. 

[timebean]

Oh I love this topic! I don't know how much we did in DAO and DA2 really impacted DAI unless someone can think of an amazing instance. Consequence for me would be like I picked Bhelen as the ruler in orzammar and since he believes in more trade with surfacers, he would've been a plot point in DAI or we would've gone there. Picking Harrowmont would've gotten us nothing. Or Anora as ruler is godawful and that would've impacted the dynamic in Ferelden. Those are majar decisions that I would've liked to see consequences for. It feels a bit like ME3, I saved the krogan and some other stuff I can't remember atm but it came down to walking right, left or straight. And yes I know that parallel is brought up aaaaall the time

Edit: oh and I let redcliffe burn and they still have the griffon statue in their square in DAI?? That was not cool, I was hoping for something dramatic but even a simple thing like NOT having the statue there would've made a statement. Thought that was weird...

Yeah...I agree that the impact from past games was not super overt, or as well done as could have been.  But for me, the whole Alistair as the warden versus as Alistair as the king felt like a huge difference...but this is likely because I am way more obsessed with Alistair than is even remotely healthy. 

 

The reason I try not to bash this too much tho is because there ARE in game consequences in this game.  It is just mostly played out through war table missions and options at the war table.  What DAO had that DAi is missing is 1) strong companion responses to major choices and 2) the final battle reflecting your state of preparedness/choices. 

 

What is weird, is that there ARE companion responses to things that seem more meaningless...comparatively.  Like if I choose Knight Enchanter as my specialization...I get all kinds of feedback from my peeps.  But letting Gaspard rule and letting Celine die?  Zip, zero.  It seems really strangely balanced, and does seem to be a time constraint thing...

[Thane4Ever]

I think that was my biggest letdown of the game. I mean, in Origins, I felt like my choices actually meant something to other characters and definitely coloured the way the story played out. In this game, it just didn't seem to matter. Who's going to rule Orlais? Ah, whoever is fine. Mages or templars? Doesn't matter because the people who come to stay with you (Fiona or Barris) just stand around and don't have much of an opinion on things even if they're supposed to be your partners. At the risk of sounding crazy, I'd have happily waited another year for the game.

A good example - if you ally with the mages, you get "Cassandra Greatly Disapproves", then your next convo in the chantry she's defending your choice to the others.  And then your next private convo with her she commends you on your decision "Oh, it appears I am blaming, you, I am not".  She does that no matter what choice you make or who you ally with or conscript. WTF?

[R2s Muse]

Pretty much, yes. Going to go a bit off-topic about word budgets, so I'll spoiler it to not distract from the current conversation.

Spoiler

It's very easy, as fans, to list off the hundred and one conversations that should have been included, but at the end of the day, they have a schedule and a budget, and these are fairly significant constraints!

I can't find it now, of course, but I swear DG commented at one time that you have to bear in mind that they're already cramming in as much word content as they can manage. If there's a conversation that you feel really, really ought to be in the game -- say, Cullen talking to the IQ after the Well of Sorrows -- which of his conversations would you cut or trim to make that happen? If it was a romance-specific conversation, what other romance conversation would you edit to make room for it?

But here's some more relevant information about how the sausage is made (so to speak), if anyone's interested:

http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html
http://dgaider.tumbl.../nuts-and-bolts ... ugh I will be so sad to see this disappear
http://forum.bioware...gets/?bioware=1

(Sorry for going off a bit with this... it's just a personal interest of mine, and something of a pet peeve as well. People tend to underestimate the importance of budgets. Even EA has its limits! Anyway, I find the nuts and bolds of games development fascinating. It's a shame I didn't realize that twenty years ago! )

Agree absolutely that it's a zero sum game in terms of word budgets. However, Id also posit that I think the word budget for character interactions should either be a greater fraction of the whole, compared to the empty open spaces, or even that some companions should be cut and have their words reallocated to the others.

[QweenBeen]

Perhaps this is what they were hoping to achieve with World states? Or maybe am I crazy?

It would've given "replayability" a whole new meaning. To lock us out of some interactions due to past decisions, I would be fiddling with the keep forever to try and play everything possible, many mant playthroughs in something like that. As it is, two playhroughs with opposite sides picked and I've seen it all now id jist be playing to see subtle nuancss...

And on the cullen romance, I think we should count ourselves lucky that we even have one, that the devs were so blown away by fan feedback over a secondary minor character that they made him into a major one. It feels like it was a gift for us, even though it's not as fleshed out as some of us would've liked

[FFZero]

Pretty much, yes. Going to go a bit off-topic about word budgets, so I'll spoiler it to not distract from the current conversation.

Spoiler

It's very easy, as fans, to list off the hundred and one conversations that should have been included, but at the end of the day, they have a schedule and a budget, and these are fairly significant constraints!

I can't find it now, of course, but I swear DG commented at one time that you have to bear in mind that they're already cramming in as much word content as they can manage. If there's a conversation that you feel really, really ought to be in the game -- say, Cullen talking to the IQ after the Well of Sorrows -- which of his conversations would you cut or trim to make that happen? If it was a romance-specific conversation, what other romance conversation would you edit to make room for it?

But here's some more relevant information about how the sausage is made (so to speak), if anyone's interested:

http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html
http://dgaider.tumbl.../nuts-and-bolts ... ugh I will be so sad to see this disappear
http://forum.bioware...gets/?bioware=1

(Sorry for going off a bit with this... it's just a personal interest of mine, and something of a pet peeve as well. People tend to underestimate the importance of budgets. Even EA has its limits! Anyway, I find the nuts and bolds of games development fascinating. It's a shame I didn't realize that twenty years ago! )

 

Agree with all of this. 

Part of the reason I don't really post on any other thread bar this one is because so many people on this forum don't appreciate how fluid the game dev process is and of all the problems that show up during the process. They think dev's withhold or remove certain features and content just to screw fans over. 

 

For example some of the conversations some of you are bringing up, or at least something akin to them, were probably wanted by the dev's at one point but they ran out of time, money, resources or possibly all three. Game dev is ultimately a balance between time/money/quality and there's no real way to get a high quality game that satisfies all people and ticks all the boxes without spending an obscene amount of money or having a dev cycle that lasts nearly half a decade or more that completely destroys the dev team with a stupid amount of crunch time. 

[Thane4Ever]

Agree absolutely that it's a zero sum game in terms of word budgets. However, Id also posit that I think the word budget for character interactions should either be a greater fraction of the whole, compared to the empty open spaces, or even that some companions should be cut and have their words reallocated to the others.

Yes.  I would have taken less of Mother Giselle in a heartbeat to make up for more relevant consequence conversations with companions and advisors and allies.  I'd also sacrfiice a couple of map areas, lots of quests and five dragons (do we really need 10?).

[Scintillla]

Yeah...I agree that the impact from past games was not super overt, or as well done as could have been.  But for me, the whole Alistair as the warden versus as Alistair as the king felt like a huge difference...but this is likely because I am way more obsessed with Alistair than is even remotely healthy. 

 

The reason I try not to bash this too much tho is because there ARE in game consequences in this game.  It is just mostly played out through war table missions and options at the war table.  What DAO had that DAi is missing is 1) strong companion responses to major choices and 2) the final battle reflecting your state of preparedness/choices. 

 

What is weird, is that there ARE companion responses to things that seem more meaningless...comparatively.  Like if I choose Knight Enchanter as my specialization...I get all kinds of feedback from my peeps.  But letting Gaspard rule and letting Celine die?  Zip, zero.  It seems really strangely balanced, and does seem to be a time constraint thing...

 

Yes, perhaps there were too many outcomes for them to keep track of. Who knows what was going on in their minds. Seeing that Cullen was added as a last minute LI...

[kalasaurus]

Yes, perhaps there were too many outcomes for them to keep track of. Who knows what was going on in their minds. Seeing that Cullen was added as a last minute LI...

It's hard to believe that both Cullen and Solas were added as last minute LI's, with their current popularity, huh?  

[CuriousArtemis]

Yes.  I would have taken less of Mother Giselle in a heartbeat to make up for more relevant consequence conversations with companions and advisors and allies.  I'd also sacrfiice a couple of map areas, lots of quests and five dragons (do we really need 10?).

 

Yeah, this 100% I also feel we should have fewer companions... Now I won't name names because everyone has their favorites, but 12 major characters? Dem's a lotta words to write. And yeah then you have people like Giselle, Morrigan, etc. 

 

OT (but on topic in terms of general complaining lol) This guy's review pretty much echoed my final thoughts: http://johnswritersb...-ending-review/

[Scintillla]

It would've given "replayability" a whole new meaning. To lock us out of some interactions due to past decisions, I would be fiddling with the keep forever to try and play everything possible, many mant playthroughs in something like that. As it is, two playhroughs with opposite sides picked and I've seen it all now id jist be playing to see subtle nuancss...

And on the cullen romance, I think we should count ourselves lucky that we even have one, that the devs were so blown away by fan feedback over a secondary minor character that they made him into a major one. It feels like it was a gift for us, even though it's not as fleshed out as some of us would've liked

 

I actually think that he is fleshed out. There are some gaps here and there, but overall, I feel that his romance is more "natural". Sorry to repeat myself and even Thane mentionned it, Blackwall is into you waaaaay faster. I spoke to him twice and he was all "because of you my lady". 

 

I`m not sure who writes these stories and I am under the impression that they are mostly...males? Also just because all the female characters have their breasts showing post sex and we have nothing. Yeah, it`s minor, but Dorian`s butt doesn`t count. Just my 2 cents lol. 

[Sifr]

Yes.  I would have taken less of Mother Giselle in a heartbeat to make up for more relevant consequence conversations with companions and advisors and allies.  I'd also sacrfiice a couple of map areas, lots of quests and five dragons (do we really need 10?).

 

I liked her all up until she started on Dorian for no reason, then I wondered why we didn't kick her to the kerb, after all, we only needed her to provide names of people in the Chantry who were trying to screw us over... and she'd already given them?

 

It's hard to believe that both Cullen and Solas were added as last minute LI's, with their current popularity, huh?  

 

Two words: Ensemble Darkhorses.

[Scintillla]

It's hard to believe that both Cullen and Solas were added as last minute LI's, with their current popularity, huh?  

 

Very hard to believe. I was under the impression though, that Solas was announced from the beginning (it wasn`t a surprised to me), for I remember thinking; That`S it??? I think at the time they had Blackwall and Solas.