138873 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah, that's so not happening in my game.   I don't see Templars, or the ability to fight magic, will ever not be needed.

 

I only ever pick between two Divines, Cassandra or Viv.

Cassandra is best Divine.

[Laurelinde]

Re: lyrium addiction, if we can assume that it bears any kind of resemblance to drug use/abuse/addiction/dependency in the real world - which seems to be the intention - then I would imagine that the level of addiction and the level of withdrawal will vary from person to person.  Two people in our world can do comparable amounts of drugs and yet have vastly different outcomes depending on their physiology, neurology and mental/emotional state.  Some people are able to just stop taking them without suffering too much, and other people struggle for years.  There are people who try something once and get addicted, and there are people who use on and off for years and never end up in a situation where it's seriously affecting their ability to function.  Everyone who is an alcoholic has drunk alcohol, but not everyone who drinks alcohol becomes or is an alcoholic.  I seem to think that research has been done on other kinds of addictions too, like gambling, about what makes certain people prone to addictive behaviors.  

 

Do we know if all templars take an identical dose or proportion of lyrium to activate their powers?  Does it differ from person to person the way alcohol consumption can?  Does body mass or metabolism play a part?

 

Looking at someone like Samson who evidently suffered from the addiction even while a templar more than others (say, Cullen), it's not all that surprising that he struggles badly with withdrawal when he's cut off.  Add in that when he loses his supply he is also in the position of having lost his job/vocation, seeing a friend made tranquil and dealing with the corruption and general horridness that permeated Kirkwall, and no wonder he goes a bit wrong in the aftermath of that.  Had he been in a position like Cullen, where he's stopping by choice, of his own free will, in more stable circumstances and with people (or at least one person) supporting him, it might not have been quite so bad.  

 

None of this rules out it being a magical thing, of course, but it feels fairly reasonable/logical to me that both the use of lyrium, and stopping it, would affect everyone a bit differently.

[Teshayel]

lol that is never happening in my game, so I need more concrete answers. The Templar abilities that keep magic in check are still needed, so either the lyrium is still needed, or we need alternatives like the Seekers. 

 

*snip*

 

Maybe forming up a squad that contains a minimum of two mages? So, Templars would do the heavy lifting, while one mage would focus on dealing damage and/or crowd control, while the other mage would focus on healing and protection. This would also have the added benefit of creating trust between the two factions.

 

As for lyrium... it's not helping against blood magic, right? 

[riverbanks]

I don't think its a good idea to let so many Templars try to undergo the Rite, as I imagine that Spirits of Faith do not come to any but the most faithful of people. I'd imagine that the vast majority would fail utterly.

 
Hmm, but then again the Templar Order: Traditional Role codex entry says
 

In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

 
So maybe a mass Tranquilization wouldn't have such a poor turnabout? I imagine the issues would be more in getting enough spirits to cooperate, making sure these spirits are not corrupted into demons in the act of possession, and the emotional recoil in the reversion process, which would have to make this a very gradual and calculated process so we don't end up with even worse results than we started out with.

[R2s Muse]

LOL, I don't think one would have to pay attention for more than a few weeks to know how often we discuss the same things, and I'm past my one-year lurkiversary now (coming up on one-year postiversary soon). But now that the game's out I've found myself disinterested in discussing his romance; I'm not one to gush, or to read other people's gushing. So until we have grounds to speculate about whether sales have been good enough for them to change their mind about an expansion (our best hope for significantly more Cullen content since he probably won't be in DA4), or about Cullen's role in some story DLC, I'm just happy to talk about lyrium, Cullen's pre-Templar family life, swears Cullen would or would not use, whether Cullen having a canning and pickling hobby is canon, etc., even if all but the last of those had been picked over for years even before Ellisgate 1.0.
 
I still don't think it's 100% clear that everyone who takes it is hooked, especially from their first draught; Cullen and Cassandra both mention templars being upset about lyrium as a counterpart to mages being upset about being imprisoned, so Evangeline is (like Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, who "wrote" the Templar codex entry implying they're not all hooked) probably also a little biased, and as I think you've mentioned several times over the course of these discussions, lyrium in general is one of those areas where there seem to be variable answers to the big questions even among sources that should all be canon. I definitely don't have time right now to reread Asunder or replay any of the games keeping an eye out for this, though (wooooo dissertation!), so I'm not going to push it.

 

 

(EDIT: *ppbbbbllllttt* to you all, Softened Leliana all the way )

Those are the topics of most interest to me as well, so discuss away! I only mention our previous discussions so that I don't have to keep repeating myself... and there are primary source links available in those for the inquisitive. So... for those inquiring minds, I encourage you to inquire away!

 

I'm sure the relative addictiveness is, like ninetozero (edit: and Laurelinde) said, dependent upon the person. Like addiction is IRL. Nevertheless, lyrium is consistently called a "highly addictive" substance, for example, in WoT. So, anyone who takes it, and that seems to be every templar, runs the high risk of becoming addicted. :shrug: Seems to be a pretty consistent picture to me.  

[Narcia_]

I don't think its a good idea to let so many Templars try to undergo the Rite, as I imagine that Spirits of Faith do not come to any but the most faithful of people. I'd imagine that the vast majority would fail utterly.

 

I wonder what happens to a non tranquil person touched by a spirit of Faith....maybe those are just Spirit Warriors.

 

Was it ever explicitly stated what type of spirit Wynne's companion was?

 

Given what we learn from Cassandra about seekers, I wonder how similar Evangeline's situation could be to hers? I mean, if you think about it, the only difference is tranquility and whether or not the spirit stayed.

 

I'm also curious about Cole's comments on how lyrium changes the templars physiology. He alludes to a resemblance to dwarf physiology and possibly their slight resistance to magic. Do you think it's possible that templars who have taken lyrium for years will have more of a resistance to magic than your average person if they manage to get clean? I hope they explore this and the seekers and the tranquil more in future works.

 

This has been a really interesting discussion today!

[Thane4Ever]

 

I believe the resell exploit has been fixed in the latest patch? In any case, there is at least one sure spawn of Fade-Touched Obsidian that you can farm for crafting and/or reselling  (take everything but one item in the chest, leave the area and come back and the Obsidian will respawn) in the Redclilffe house with a master lock.

It has not been fixed for PS4, I can confirm that it still works.  Apparently it's been a "tradition" over all the console versions.

[Hellion Rex]

Was it ever explicitly stated what type of spirit Wynne's companion was?

Given what we learn from Cassandra about seekers, I wonder how similar Evangeline's situation could be to hers? I mean, if you think about it, the only difference is tranquility and whether or not the spirit stayed.

I'm also curious about Cole's comments on how lyrium changes the templars physiology. He alludes to a resemblance to dwarf physiology and possibly their slight resistance to magic. Do you think it's possible that templars who have taken lyrium for years will have more of a resistance to magic than your average person if they manage to get clean? I hope they explore this and the seekers and the tranquil more in future works.

This has been a really interesting discussion today!

Wynne had a faith spirit. Evangeline might have her addiction waived due to that.
I would agree that Templars who shuck lyrium might have a good resistance to lyrium in comparison to the average Joe.

[kalasaurus]

So, I remember awhile back someone mentioned that Cullen had alternate dialogue during Perseverance if the Inquisitor doesn't ask him about what happened to him in the Circle during the Blight.  I decided to try it for myself, and when I got to that part I recorded and uploaded it.  I'm not sure if anyone else has shared a video of it yet.  Anyway, here it is for the curious .

 

[Thane4Ever]

Yeah, that's so not happening in my game.   I don't see that Templars, or the ability to fight magic, will ever not be needed.

 

I only ever pick between two Divines, Cassandra or Viv.

Well circles being disbanded does happen in some people's games, so it's a valid question. I have a few different outcomes myself.

[Hellion Rex]

 
Hmm, but then again the Templar Order: Traditional Role codex entry says
 

In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

 
So maybe a mass Tranquilization wouldn't have such a poor turnabout? I imagine the issues would be more in getting enough spirits to cooperate, making sure these spirits are not corrupted into demons in the act of possession, and the emotional recoil in the reversion process, which would have to make this a very gradual and calculated process so we don't end up with even worse results than we started out with.

A codex entry hardly describes the reality of the Order, in this regard, in my opinion. How many in the Templar Order exhibit faith and piety on the magnitude of Cassandra, or hell, even Lambert? I believe very few could actually attract such Spirits of Faith.

[riverbanks]

Maybe forming up a squad that contains a minimum of two mages? So, Templars would do the heavy lifting, while one mage would focus on dealing damage and/or crowd control, while the other mage would focus on healing and protection. This would also have the added benefit of creating trust between the two factions.

 

This is a very interesting proposal, I could go for something like that. Harrowed and trusted Enchanters working beside Templars could work in many ways - to bring new mages into the Circle in a less frightening and hamfisted way by offering a friendly and understanding hand, talking to a mage child's parents and reassuring them before taking the kid to be trained (this is something I can easily picture Bethany doing, for instance); or to hunt demons and maleficarum, mages could use their debilitating abilities on enemies and buffing ones on the Templars as they do the dirty jackboot work, could shield and heal the civilians caught up in the fights... I like the idea of an arrangement of mutual trust and team work between both groups, to breach the inherent strain their relationship inevitably comes with.

[CuriousArtemis]

Well circles being disbanded does happen in some people's games, so it's a valid question. I have a few different outcomes myself.

 

My first game (on my second now) resulted in "happy Leliana" as Divine, so yep!

[Hellion Rex]

Well circles being disbanded does happen in some people's games, so it's a valid question. I have a few different outcomes myself.

I honestly believe that the only way to mitigate it is through two possibilities (since we are hopefully moving far North for DA4):

 

1. They kill off whoever you named Divine, and place an easy replacement on the throne with which they can establish an easy springboard.

 

2. They take us so far North and drop us into a place where anything we'd hear about the Southern situation would be at a bare minimum.

 

Giving us the ability to name Divine sincerely shot themselves in the foot, in my opinion, because each Divine basically rewrites Thedas in her own way, giving us several major divergences. They should have just given it to Giselle by default and been done with it.

[Owlfruit Potion]

I honestly believe that the only way to mitigate it is through two possibilities (since we are hopefully moving far North for DA4):

 

1. They kill off whoever you named Divine, and place an easy replacement on the throne with which they can establish an easy springboard

 

2. They take us so far North and drop us into a place where anything we'd hear about the Southern situation would be at a bare minimum.

I think 2's a good bet (including the variant where we're temporally far away instead of spatially), but there's also

 

3. Whoever you picked, everyone's pretty much OK with it.

 

Maybe for the more extreme ones, there's some initial torch and pitchfork squads (Leliana) or mage rebellion (Vivienne) but that could be stamped out quickly as implied by the epilogues (though in the latter case I'm sure it'd pop up again in another hundred years). The Breach was enough of a world-shaker that I don't think people would be too terribly shocked at anything. And it wouldn't have to affect future games much from a resource standpoint; besides Codex entries about history being different, maybe you run into a Qunari Chantry sister or some random mage NPC with a happy family life if Leliana's Divine and not otherwise. Those are well within the scope of existing differences between worldstates. Even if the Circles were disbanded, you'd still have mages gathering to study in former Circle towers; a few minor dialogue differences and the size/attitude of the Templar presence could handle mages being there voluntarily or not.

[Thane4Ever]

I honestly believe that the only way to mitigate it is through two possibilities (since we are hopefully moving far North for DA4):

 

1. They kill off whoever you named Divine, and place an easy replacement on the throne with which they can establish an easy springboard.

 

2. They take us so far North and drop us into a place where anything we'd hear about the Southern situation would be at a bare minimum.

 

Giving us the ability to name Divine sincerely shot themselves in the foot, in my opinion, because each Divine basically rewrites Thedas in her own way, giving us several major divergences. They should have just given it to Giselle by default and been done with it.

I agree - they've left us with so many variables - no circles, circles, different Divines, Wardens rebuilding or not, Seekers or no seekers, etc that we almost have to move to a completely different region.  Which I'm okay with.

[MelissaGT]

Well circles being disbanded does happen in some people's games, so it's a valid question. I have a few different outcomes myself.

 

Even if it is, I'd imagine there'd still be a few "bad eggs" out there that would need to be stopped. With no circles, I'd imagine they'd be needed even more, or at least create a special "mage force" as part of normal guard corps. That's not to say that mages themselves couldn't partner with Templars in that "special force." I'm sure there's plenty out there (like Viv) that would be all about stopping the "bad eggs" that give mages a bad name. Heck, every time I play a mage in-game I end up siding with the Templars simply because I can't stand the "always turn to blood magic" aspect. The first time I played DA:2 I felt so bad for the mages and then I saw them all turn to blood magic, even Orsino. From then on I was like, yeah Cullen...whatcha need? 

[riverbanks]

Well circles being disbanded does happen in some people's games, so it's a valid question. I have a few different outcomes myself.

 

It's a valid question, but I think you answered it yourself: it doesn't matter. In a world where the Circles are dissolved, the Templars are rendered obsolete, so it doesn't matter how or if they can still use their abilities, with or without lyrium. And, generally speaking, most people who want a "mage freedom" ending for their game are either going to ally with the mages in the first place (in which case the Templars will have been corrupted and destroyed by the end of the story anyway) or, at worst, are going to disband the last remains of the Order, so again... in that scenario, the question of lyrium or no lyrium doesn't really matter anymore.

 

These questions are mostly pertinent to those for whom the Templars continue to exist and serve a purpose in the world - how to serve that purpose in less self-destructive ways, whether it's possible to break the chains that bind them to lyrium without getting half the ranks killed from the side effects of withdrawal, whether it's even in everyone's best interest to do it so immediately (or at all), etc. The equivalent questions to a "mage freedom" ending might be along the lines of, how exactly do the mages intend to police themselves, who gets the say in what is or is not allowed, how lenient would they be with fellow mages until it proved too late etc; but that's neither here nor there with the comparison we were initially drawing between Cullen's addiction and how other members of the Order will deal with their own in a world where they are trying to follow in his steps and quit lyrium too, as Cassandra's slide states.

[Teshayel]

This is a very interesting proposal, I could go for something like that. Harrowed and trusted Enchanters working beside Templars could work in many ways - to bring new mages into the Circle in a less frightening and hamfisted way by offering a friendly and understanding hand, talking to a mage child's parents and reassuring them before taking the kid to be trained (this is something I can easily picture Bethany doing, for instance); or to hunt demons and maleficarum, mages could use their debilitating abilities on enemies and buffing ones on the Templars as they do the dirty jackboot work, could shield and heal the civilians caught up in the fights... I like the idea of an arrangement of mutual trust and team work between both groups, to breach the inherent strain their relationship inevitably comes with.

 

Another thing I was contemplating was that rather than investing coin into a steady lyrium supply, the Chantry would in this case invest in enchantment research (maybe with the help of Dwarves like Dagna as well), and equip their Templars with enchanted armour. That way, whatever they will lack in magic resistance from not taking lyrium any more could at least be made up in part by armour enchantments.

 

And, yes, mages going around recruiting together with Templars would be ideal. The kids would not be so terrified. Also, Circles could be organized more like boarding schools, with families being able to visit. Older kids could be sent home on vacations, just as soon as they learn how to keep things safe. Since every village has some Chantry presence, the Templars there could help supervise the kids. Some senior mages should be stationed at Chantries, to help with kids' supervision. 

 

Edit: One more thought. Seekers could fulfil a role similar to Witchers - just, less mercenary

[Cerulione]

lol that is never happening in my game, so I need more concrete answers. The Templar abilities that keep magic in check are still needed, so either the lyrium is still needed, or we need alternatives like the Seekers. But how do we make more Seekers? Tranquilize every Templar and revert their tranquility? Or do we develop new ways to draw power from lyrium without ingesting it, develop safety measures to avoid addiction, develop some new non-magical abilities/skills to counter magic? The Orlesian Chevaliers are trained to fight mages without any debilitating abilities after all, the dwarven warrior caste and the Legion of the Dead fight darkspawn emissaries without those too... so there are alternatives. We just need to figure out where the Templars are going from here.

 

IIRC, Bull also mention something about the Qunari knowing how to fight mages right? When he commented on Cullen's being a Templar & get his shield angled a bit down IIRC he made a comment "like how the Qunari fought the Vint" (if anyone can confirm...). But I think that the fundamental difference between non Templar warriors fighting mages & Templar figthing mages is that Templar can "control" without kill, and non Templar's aiming to hurt/kill the mage directly. This is how I see it in any case.

 

I just hope that they can find something for Templars to not getting addiction or lose their mind with time. Magical research probably needed.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

Another thing I was contemplating was that rather than investing coin into a steady lyrium supply, the Chantry would in this case invest in enchantment research (maybe with the help of Dwarves like Dagna as well), and equip their Templars with enchanted armour. That way, whatever they will lack in magic resistance from not taking lyrium any more could at least be made up in part by armour enchantments.

 

And, yes, mages going around recruiting together with Templars would be ideal. The kids would not be so terrified. Also, Circles could be organized more like boarding schools, with families being able to visit. Older kids could be sent home on vacations, just as soon as they learn how to keep things safe. Since every village has some Chantry presence, the Templars there could help supervise the kids. Some senior mages should be stationed at Chantries, to help with kids' supervision. 

 

Edit: One more thought. Seekers could fulfil a role similar to Witchers - just, less mercenary

Lol, I love both Dragon Age and The Witcher universes...but I want them to stay FAR away from one another.

[MelissaGT]

It's a valid question, but I think you answered it yourself: it doesn't matter. In a world where the Circles are dissolved, the Templars are rendered obsolete, so it doesn't matter how or if they can still use their abilities, with or without lyrium. And, generally speaking, most people who want a "mage freedom" ending for their game are either going to ally with the mages in the first place (in which case the Templars will have been corrupted and destroyed by the end of the story anyway) or, at worst, are going to disband the last remains of the Order, so again... in that scenario, the question of lyrium or no lyrium doesn't really matter anymore.

 

*le snip*

 

I just wanted to throw out another possible scenario. With my Templar IQ, she saw the mages in Redcliffe as the immediate threat and ended up running In Hushed Whispers. She conscripted them and was glad she got there when she did, even though that meant corruption within the Templars. There are still loyal Templars out there (war table mission I can't remember the name of) that join up with the Inquisition (and bring their loyal mages with them). After defeating Corypheus, she fully intends to see the Templar Order rebuilt, albeit in a reformed environment. The new Order will need to work with whatever Divine is elected, so I'm not sure what form it will take. But it will be rebuilt. 

[Thane4Ever]

Even if it is, I'd imagine there'd still be a few "bad eggs" out there that would need to be stopped. With no circles, I'd imagine they'd be needed even more, or at least create a special "mage force" as part of normal guard corps. That's not to say that mages themselves couldn't partner with Templars in that "special force." I'm sure there's plenty out there (like Viv) that would be all about stopping the "bad eggs" that give mages a bad name. Heck, every time I play a mage in-game I end up siding with the Templars simply because I can't stand the "always turn to blood magic" aspect. The first time I played DA:2 I felt so bad for the mages and then I saw them all turn to blood magic, even Orsino. From then on I was like, yeah Cullen...whatcha need? 

I had said that in my first comment - that maybe they'd have a smaller number of Templars just to fight evil mages running amok.

[Hellion Rex]

Another thing I was contemplating was that rather than investing coin into a steady lyrium supply, the Chantry would in this case invest in enchantment research (maybe with the help of Dwarves like Dagna as well), and equip their Templars with enchanted armour. That way, whatever they will lack in magic resistance from not taking lyrium any more could at least be made up in part by armour enchantments.

In terms of enchantment, the Circles do have the Formari, which are extremely powerful in their own right, though of course not savants like Sandal is.

[Cerulione]

Sorry guys & gals, can I ask for a favor please?

 

Which one from these two images do you prefer...?

 

Spoiler

A: I add extra scar as extension of his lip scar

 

 

B: extra scar at the other cheek.

 

 

 

These are still rough sketches on paper so it can be easily modified yet. I might want to colour one tho...