138872 réponses à ce sujet

[Zarro-Morningstar]

I think what you're getting at is that he was immature with the way he went about engaging in relationships. He was ignorant to other people's feelings because his judgement was clouded by his own naivity. Maybe it made some of his actions seem a little inappropriate. But I think the whole book hones in on Maric's character development as he leads the rebel army to victory. In the beginning he's completely oblivious to others' feelings and motives. And I think part of that is because he was raised in a castle under immense protection and possibly felt untouched by any consequences of his actions. But by the end he's much more aware of those around him. He's practically a completely different person from the beginning to the end of the book. And I don't think Maric at the end is nearly as blindly trusting as Maric from the beginning.

If Maric was as blindly trusting as he was in the beginning...I would had burned that book. If I do not see a change in a character from the beginning to the end, then quite frankly it is not something I want to spend time reading. Character development is key and Maric grew which made me like him, but not love him.

[Queen Rowan]

Yeah, Loghain knew about Alistair all along. If you conscript him in DAO and go through all his dialogue, he has a number of things to say about Maric shaming Rowan with a bastard child, on top of everything else - that him acknowledging a bastard would have made Rowan look like a mere concubine, etc. 
 
Loghain's relationship with Cailan wasn't always as strained as it comes across at the time we meet them. In The Calling, he seems to care more about Cailan than even Maric does. I can see why - on some level, young Cailan was all Loghain had left of Rowan. But... there's another factor that I personally think is what soured any friendship they might have had: Cailan married Anora. And he repeated with her some of the same relationship patterns Maric had with Rowan. Loghain saw his own daughter suffering some of the same issues the woman he'd loved did in the past - this inevitably builds resentment, even if it may not have been intentional on Cailan's part. Even if Loghain once cared about Cailan as Rowan's child, Cailan was too much like Maric in the end for that to last.
 
(lol this is going super OT, sorry, but I can't not join in a Loghain/Rowan/Maric/Cailan/Anora/Alistair discussion, it's only my favorite topic in the DA universe )

Gosh I'm so excited to start reading that. I never thought I could love Loghain as much as I do. I'm going to have to add him to my party in DAO. Never did it before bc of Alistair but I want to. I apologize for going OT. This is also one of my favorite DA topics and I just finished The Stolen Throne again so I had to bring it up!

[R2s Muse]

It probably seems like I hate Maric's guts, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I found him endearing...but,well, you guys know how "innocent" he was. I have a personal bias when it comes to people with such a naive personality, so naturally that bleeds into my opinion of Maric. I found myself rolling my eyes and gagging far too many times when it came to scenes with Maric/Katriel. I never said it wasn't his fault for not returning Rowen's feelings nor did I say I found him to be a complete and utter playboy.

 

I simply found him to be very...loose with his affections, lol. Perhaps man-****** may not fully describe Maric (since it doesn't in the slightest), but I found him to be easy with his affections. We probably aren't going to agree on this, but I appreciate it that we can actually discuss this topic!

No worries. I just find "evil Maric the man sl ut" seems to be a common slur thrown at Maric and it baffles me, particularly now that we know that Goldanna's mom wasn't Alistair's mom after all. 

 

On Maric, he who only ever slept with one woman at the same time and with no apparent suave skill, being a Playboy... Well, yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, cuz I totally don't see it.

[riverbanks]

Yeah, I don't think Alistair would ever cheat...save for the warden if she is his mistress. I don't even know if you call that "cheating"

 

The mistress ending is not cheating - mistress here is not used in the same contemporary context we use it, as a dirty little cheating secret, but in the historical context of a consort to a noble in a political marriage. It's not really a demerit to be a consort - you would be the true loved one, on the side of the official spouse.

 

It's much like Vivienne's relationship with Bastien - his wife knew about Vivienne, and even got along with her. Anora is the same in that scenario - she never asks you to give up your relationship with Alistair, only that you two please not shame her if you remain together. Depending on your Warden's personality, you could even come to have a relationship of mutual respect with her - if my own Warden hadn't died, I can see her coming into friendly terms with Anora eventually, even as she remained Alistair's consort in the privacy of their bed.

[Tishina]

What?! Is it because I added it to the Cullen Celebration Group?! Ackkkk

 

And oh, you're very good and very organized. You probably hold on to your fic until you've fully edited and added the cherry on top! I guess I am too impatient for that I post it up as soon as I'm done. I'm so excited to see what people will think of it... then immediately regret the decision when I see how hastily it was written.

 

 

Poor readers

 

Hey, I love Blackwall and think he's massively hot; I'm sad my character can't romance him, but I will be the first to say that he's not a widely appealing LI. Bull is the same way. Dorian is the a little more widely appealing, looks-wise, though he is very... fabulous lol Which appeals to certain tastes and not others.

 

Anyway, I don't want to break down the characters. Some I like, some I don't. And it's the exact opposite for the player next to me. It's all down to taste. But that's why I agree with you in that I feel Cullen should've been the least gated male LI... not Bull!!! That is such a bizarre choice. Of course deep down I believe they did it for personality... because they have that very stereotyped belief that a bisexual person will be the most "open" and vice versa. So a free spirit like Bull... of course he's bisexual! And of course he is attracted to any race! *rolls eyes*

 

Personally I feel the non-gated romances should've been Cassandra and Cullen. Both story-important characters, both attractive ("OMG SHE LOOKS LIKE A MAN" loser comments notwithstanding), both easy, no-drama romances, etc. Then if you want to go down the less traveled path, there are folks like Bull or Blackwall or Solas.

Agreed! What bugs me is that they'll look at the statistics and claim that people don't like to play dwarves and qunari as much as elves and humans. When you weight the scales to begin with---including one fewer class for dwarves, no dwarven LI again, and by gating their options to LIs with fairly specialized appeal (or at least for females wanting a male LI)---why is anyone going to be surprised at the results? It particularly bugs me that they put extra resources at the last minute into making IB available to everyone instead of someone with a reasonably broad appeal. Leaving Blackwall aside (I am romancing him, but I can't work up much enthusiasm), IB delivers an ultimatum, and Sera's conversations with a female dwarves could easily be considered insulting (constantly commenting on how cute someone is because they're that short isn't my idea of a great start to a relationship), and Josephine at the beginning clearly doesn't cope with the criminal background of a dwarf (and there's the real possibility of her eventually dumping you if you aren't a human noble to marry someone for her family's sake.)  Honestly, if they'd been trying harder to discourage people from romancing anyone as a female dwarf, they couldn't have done a better job (and the reason I have a PT romancing Harding...as far as that goes.)

 

If this were realistic, I'd have a shot at romancing Sutherland, Harding, Dagna, Adan (especially cranky ole' Adan), an unromanced Leliana, an unromanced Morrigan, an unromanced Hawke, Stroud, etc.

[Queen Rowan]

No worries. I just find "evil Maric the man sl ut" seems to be a common slur thrown at Maric and it baffles me, particularly now that we know that's Goldanna's mom wasn't Alistair's mom after all. 

 

On Maric, he who only ever slept with one woman at the same time and with no apparent suave skill, being a Playboy... Well, yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, cuz I totally don't see it.

 

I'm surprised that's a common opinion actually. I never thought that when reading. Maybe that accusation arose more from The Calling? He just seems immature to me in The Stolen Throne. 

[Cantina]

Caught this yesterday:

 

 

 

 

Griffon Wing Keep Before Capture:  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Griffon Wing Keep After Capture:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryriena]

I don't see Maric as the playboy Character your trying to paint him as Zero, and I think your love of the Maric/Rowan pairing, whom he I might add did not love is clouding your judgement. In fact I blame Logain for lying too Maric about her love for him.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

No worries. I just find "evil Maric the man sl ut" seems to be a common slur thrown at Maric and it baffles me, particularly now that we know that's Goldanna's mom wasn't Alistair's mom after all. 

 

On Maric, he who only ever slept with one woman at the same time and with no apparent suave skill, being a Playboy... Well, yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, cuz I totally don't see it.

Interesting. I figured that most people would had insulted his personality, rather than his way he handles his affections. Eh, everyone will feel something different about a character; which is something that should happen.

 

I think he was unaware of his effect on the people around him and with women in particular, lol. Indeed. I love agreeing to disagree when it's compared to the alternative of bickering.

[AresKeith]

Agreed! What bugs me is that they'll look at the statistics and claim that people don't like to play dwarves and qunari as much as elves and humans. When you weight the scales to begin with---including one fewer class for dwarves, no dwarven LI again, and by gating their options to LIs with fairly specialized appeal (or at least for females wanting a male LI)---why is anyone going to be surprised at the results? It particularly bugs me that they put extra resources at the last minute into making IB available to everyone instead of someone with a reasonably broad appeal. Leaving Blackwall aside (I am romancing him, but I can't work up much enthusiasm), IB delivers an ultimatum, and Sera's conversations with a female dwarves could easily be considered insulting (constantly commenting on how cute someone is because they're that short isn't my idea of a great start to a relationship), and Josephine at the beginning clearly doesn't cope with the criminal background of a dwarf (and there's the real possibility of her eventually dumping you if you aren't a human noble to marry someone for her family's sake.)  Honestly, if they'd been trying harder to discourage people from romancing anyone as a female dwarf, they couldn't have done a better job (and the reason I have a PT romancing Harding...as far as that goes.)

 

That isn't what they were trying to do 

[Owlfruit Potion]

That's not to say I would have disagreed at all if they'd had the chance to implement Qunari and Dwarven romances, though - the more the merrier. If they'd had the time I'm sure they could have woven a nice narrative involving Cullen becoming more understanding and open to a romantic relationship with someone from a culture he hadn't had a chance to meet up till now. Same with the gender-gating even though he was only initially attracted to the female Warden. Instead of pigeonholing him, I rather think something like that would expand his horizons. I like the idea of Cullen learning to be open to new ideas and people since he's walking along that path anyway So that's something I wouldn't have a problem with, even though I'd probably still continue to only romance him with humans/elven females myself.

(posted in the hope that this topic has now cooled down enough since summer, and then since December, that we can talk about it here where we all know we respect each other without drawing down flames from outside... but if we're still staying away from it someone LMK and I'll go back to leaving it alone)

His being potentially interested in Qunari and dwarves does seem like it would have been more in-character. I was disappointed we never got any story reasons against Adaar and only very tenuous, implied ones against Cadash, although I guess the Circle comment to Lavellan might count as "story reasons" for elves and humans now that you point it out. But tying sexual orientation to open-mindedness gives me bad memories of like every pre-Darrah-tweet discussion about Solas, and I had hoped that if Cullen was bi in DA:I they'd have explained it with him having come to love a man he met in Kirkwall over time or something rather than implying that sort of thing (although with what we know now, if Solas

Spoiler

is a deity in the usual sense and not a being with a mother and father who wound up immortal, as some think the elven gods were

, nothing other than asexual or pansexual makes any sense to me).

TBH, though, I don't think of Cullen as any more "canonically straight, your headcanon is totally invalid" now than he was in DA:O--if you go by "he was straight in DA:O because in reality he exists only as code, and that code was programmed only to be attracted to women" then he's straight now but that's not a new development (this is my stance on it personally, although obviously I would have been more than happy for people here if that had changed for DA:I), and if you go by "assume everyone is bisexual unless they say otherwise" then he still could be. He's got a different letdown line for gender vs. race, but he still never comes out and says it as explicitly as Cassandra does (and if you want you could argue that is just Cullen "...young ladies" Rutherford in action, but whatever). Obviously the ability to enjoy the romance in the vanilla game is the bigger bummer, but if it really was just a cinematics issue and all the VO was recorded, then soon enough modders should have the exact same romance in there for guys, just with more clipping in the cutscenes.

 

(edited slightly for clarity and grammar)

Modifié par Owlfruit Potion, 14 février 2015 - 04:38 .

[Tishina]

The mistress ending is not cheating - mistress here is not used in the same contemporary context we use it, as a dirty little cheating secret, but in the historical context of a consort to a noble in a political marriage. It's not really a demerit to be a consort - you would be the true loved one, on the side of the official spouse.

 

It's much like Vivienne's relationship with Bastien - his wife knew about Vivienne, and even got along with her. Anora is the same in that scenario - she never asks you to give up your relationship with Alistair, only that you two please not shame her if you remain together. Depending on your Warden's personality, you could even come to have a relationship of mutual respect with her - if my own Warden hadn't died, I can see her coming into friendly terms with Anora eventually, even as she remained Alistair's consort in the privacy of their bed.

Exactly. Lots of marriages were political, with no affection or even active dislike between spouses (look up George IV and Caroline, though he's a terrible example.) Arranged marriages weren't about affection, and relatively few people (or relatively few men) treated them as serious bonds. I don't see being Alistair's mistress as a problem most of the time, as long as whoever legally marries him goes into it knowing about it.

[R2s Muse]

Caught this yesterday:
 
 
 
 
Griffon Wing Keep Before Capture:  
 
 

 
 
 
 
Griffon Wing Keep After Capture:
 
 

Yeah, this is left over from when you were once going to be able to customize each captured keep to be dedicated to military, spying, or commerce/politics. Griffon Wing Keep had three different versions depending on which you picked. They scrapped it, and now Griffon Wing Keep only becomes the military version. Complete with lion...

military


commerce


espionage


once you chose military, the maplooked like this:

[Zarro-Morningstar]

I don't see Maric as the playboy Character your trying to paint him as Zero, and I think your love of the Maric/Rowan pairing, whom he I might add did not love is clouding your judgement. In fact I blame Logain for lying Marric about her love for him.

Lol, perhaps I should had made my "nor" bold in my previous post?

 

"I never said it wasn't his fault for not returning Rowen's feelings nor did I say I found him to be a complete and utter playboy."

 

I'm not trying to paint him as anything other than a man who was extremely naive and (imo) loose with his affection. I also do not "love" the Maric/Rowen paring, I simply felt for her situation of being blindsided like that.

[Ryriena]

In fact I don't see the point of view of saying someone was a playboy because he did not return someone else feelings. That makes little sense to me.


The thing is love tends to be like that and will blindside you, if you let it since cane never make sense sometimes. Ect

[R2s Muse]

Interesting. I figured that most people would had insulted his personality, rather than his way he handles his affections. Eh, everyone will feel something different about a character; which is something that should happen.
 
I think he was unaware of his effect on the people around him and with women in particular, lol. Indeed. I love agreeing to disagree when it's compared to the alternative of bickering.

LOL No, it's usually said in the context of him apparently bedding every elf he runs across, which is patently false. As far as whether he should have been in love with Rowan... that's hardly the definition of Playboy. That's just him being unlucky enough to not fall for Rowan. You can't help who you fall in love with. Or don't fall in love with, as the case may be.

[MelissaGT]

*snip*

 

Yeah, I don't think Alistair would ever cheat...save for the warden if she is his mistress. I don't even know if you call that "cheating" since Anora feels nothing for Alistair and the same for him. Besides I would always have Alistair rule alone with the warden as his mistress, if that was the current PT I was playing. Although, we can't be sure. People grow apart and Alistair is the type who needs comfort. I'm not saying he would hop into another's arms with a fingersnap, but when years go by...well, people change.

 

*snip*

 

Oh, If my Warden isn't a Cousland, I always have Alistair marry Anora. That way there's no worry about him ending up married to a doe-eyed twit and putting undue strain on their already "interesting" relationship. At least with Anora we know that it's completely political - and she's a strong ruler - and she knows up front about the Warden and Alistair's relationship.

[Queen Rowan]

Anyone going to PAX East this year? Mike Laidlaw said he's not sure if the panels will be recorded because of possible PAX restrictions. If anyone is going, I'd love to be updated on the romance panel. Regardless, does anyone know if stuff from PAX East was recorded in the past? I eat up anything and everything the developers have to say about the game. Especially on topics like romance. 

[Zarro-Morningstar]

LOL No, it's usually said in the context of him apparently bedding every elf he runs across, which is patently false. As far as whether he should have been in love with Rowan... that's hardly the definition of Playboy. That's just him being unlucky enough to not fall for Rowan. You can't help who you fall in love with. Or don't fall in love with, as the case may be.

O_O Maric had a thing for elves, is that something we can all agree on? Lol, that is a far easier topic for all of us to agree upon...at least I hope. If I saw someone make a post that stated that Maric bedded every elf he came across, then I would be arguing on Maric's side; because as you said...that is false. I agree. One does not choose who they fall in love with, but one can choose how they react in those situations where another cares for them but you don't share those feelings.

[Owlfruit Potion]

Anyone going to PAX East this year? Mike Laidlaw said he's not sure if the panels will be recorded because of possible PAX restrictions. If anyone is going, I'd love to be updated on the romance panel. Regardless, does anyone know if stuff from PAX East was recorded in the past? I eat up anything and everything the developers have to say about the game. Especially on topics like romance.

I'll definitely be at that panel and will take notes. (EDIT: Will probably have to miss the other one Laidlaw just announced he'd be at, though. The one about identifying with your character.)

[Zarro-Morningstar]

Oh, If my Warden isn't a Cousland, I always have Alistair marry Anora. That way there's no worry about him ending up married to a doe-eyed twit and putting undue strain on their already "interesting" relationship. At least with Anora we know that it's completely political - and she's a strong ruler - and she knows up front about the Warden and Alistair's relationship.

If my Warden isn't a Cousland then Alistair isn't becoming king, lol. I love Alistair far too much to pair him with Anora, even if I'm not playing a character that is romancing him, I would never put him in a situation where he would not get any love/comfort. And if someone asks "What about Ferelden?" Well, my opinion is this: screw Ferelden, I care more for the characters rather than the country. I am aware that is selfish.

[R2s Muse]

O_O Maric had a thing for elves, is that something we can all agree on? Lol, that is a far easier topic for all of us to agree upon...at least I hope. If I saw someone make a post that stated that Maric bedded every elf he came across, then I would be arguing on Maric's side; because as you said...that is false. I agree. One does not choose who they fall in love with, but one can choose how they react in those situations where another cares for them but you don't share those feelings.

LOL As a scientist I simply cannot call two out of three data points a trend. But I think that we pretty much beaten this topic into the ground.

[stop_him]

Personally I feel the non-gated romances should've been Cassandra and Cullen. Both story-important characters, both attractive ("OMG SHE LOOKS LIKE A MAN" loser comments notwithstanding), both easy, no-drama romances, etc. Then if you want to go down the less traveled path, there are folks like Bull or Blackwall or Solas.

I can see it from a writer's perspective though. The writers create the characters' personality first then decide on how they will behave in certain situations, how they will act, and who they might be attracted to. This is all in spite of what the fans may want. That has got to be the reason Blackwall even exists as he does. As if the writers said,

 

Spoiler

"Hey, we should have the fans recruit a total liar and murderer into their inquisition--AND--the ladies can romance him. That'd be fun...for us."  

 

When my first inquisitor had the option to let Vivienne kill the nobleman who drew his sword on her, my bf was like, "YEAH! Kill him." But my first inquisitor would NEVER do that. Killing the noble would not have fit my character's personality.

 

Likewise, I have not yet been able to create an inquisitor who gives Blackwall a 100% get out of jail free card OR evicted Sera out of the inquisition even though I really want to do the latter sometimes. 

[Zarro-Morningstar]

LOL As a scientist I simply cannot call two out of three data points a trend. But I think that we pretty much beaten this topic into the ground.

*grumbles* Fine, lol. I still think he had a preference or at least was enamored by elves due to the detailing done when he first laid eyes on Katriel. However, I need to finish up my story's editing so I can be done with it completely. 

[riverbanks]

I love Alistair far too much to pair him with Anora, even if I'm not playing a character that is romancing him, I would never put him in a situation where he would not get any love/comfort.

 

Then again, some of us actually ship Alistair/Anora as a couple that starts off as merely political, and even slightly disdainful of each other, but eventually develops a relationship of mutual respect, trust and friendship over time -and who knows, even that different, more low-key kind of love that comes from comfortable familiarity rather than flaming passion- so their marriage doesn't have to be such a horrible prospect for either of them.

 

Even if one doesn't ship it, though, Alistair has that kind of personality that makes me think that, in a world where the Warden is not a factor -he's male, or she hasn't romanced Alistair, or they broke up, or she died- he would put deliberate effort into making his marriage to Anora at least not completely miserable for both of them. I don't see him giving up and becoming a bitter and resentful old grump who hates everything and just wants to sulk himself into an early grave like Maric (and therein lies the biggest difference between them, I think: Maric broke under the weight of his life, and Alistair refuses to). He may not like the first taste of it, but he would at the very least try to make do with the lemons life gave him - he and Anora need not love each other, but their joint cameo in DAI showed they can stand on equal footing and respect each other enough to make a good team.