138905 réponses à ce sujet

[R2s Muse]

Great work, R2! You've got a lovely light touch with your writing, it's always a pleasure to read.

Thanks so much!    
 

[Sifr]

http://feylen.tumblr...t-me-on-patreon

 

 

For anyone who has played Dreamfall: Chapters, anyone else notice that Modern!Cullen looks totally like Zoe's therapist in that game?

 

Because I think we can work out now where Zoe's inappropriate sexual fantasies about her therapist are coming from.

 

[riverbanks]

(avoiding the rest of this discussion because I'm tired of defending the Cousland origin~ but...)

 

....with a greatsword ready to run her through if she is unsuccessful in unarmed combat against a demon;

 

I'll have to agree here that mages are not unarmed in their Harrowing - your magic is your weapon. You're trained in magic, and it's all you should need; the staff is a crutch. Further, the Harrowing is not really about whether you can defeat a demon in combat with your magic, it's about whether you can resist possession. The various little demons and spirits you fight in the Fade for gameplay reasons are not the test itself, they're just deflecting the real challenge - resisting possession by the Pride demon passing off as your helpless little friend.

 

That's why a lot of Tranquils we meet say their magic wasn't strong enough to pass the Harrowing. It's not that they couldn't conjure up a fireball if pressed, what they didn't have was enough mental strength and control over their own magic to resist demonic possession. If Cullen at any moment during Surana's/Amell's Harrowing was forced to kill hi/er, it would not be because the Templars were expecting or hoping or setting hi/er up to failure - it'd be because s/he'd unfortunately been possessed at that point and deserved the mercy of a quick death rather than being used by a demon. If they'd thought s/he couldn't make it they wouldn't even have put her through the Harrowing at all, as we see in Jowan.

 

Whether that's a valid test or not is another discussion, but the fine point is that the Harrowing is not like a gladiator ring, you must defeat a demon in unarmed combat or die by the sword; it's about whether you have enough control and discernment to resist temptation. All the other origins except the Dalish one do depend on life threat and physical combat, whether you can survive people genuinely trying to kill you, but the mage one is ultimately about whether you can survive yourself (your own magic, and your bad decisions re. Jowan, Irving, etc).

[riverbanks]

For anyone who has played Dreamfall: Chapters, anyone else notice that Modern!Cullen looks totally like Zoe's therapist in that game?

 

Because I think we can work out now where Zoe's inappropriate sexual fantasies about her therapist are coming from.

 

 

......I hadn't noticed, but now that you mention it I can't unsee.

[Tishina]

Only the first sentence of the spoiler'd text is unique to Cousland, though. To me, Cousland at least starts out with a fabulous castle, a loving family, and parents who care deeply for her and then has everything ruined by possibly the only unambiguous, moustache-twirling villain in the game. Amell / Surana 1. grew up in a prison; even if the player headcanons that she liked it there, she never had a choice about it; 2. starts the game with a guy who admires her and cares about her standing over her with a greatsword ready to run her through if she is unsuccessful in unarmed combat against a demon; 3. is shortly afterwards informed that her best friend is about to be magically lobotomized unless she risks her own life/career to break him out (or double-crosses him to avoid said personal risk); and then 4. is betrayed by said friend and possibly executed or sent to a terrible prison camp unless Duncan is there to recruit her.

 

I'd take "everything was great until the last minute and then everyone died" over all of that as it is, but then when the crit path at least gives Cousland a unique chance for revenge, the unique crit path element for Amell/Surana is that she gets to find aforementioned greatsword guy completely broken because he was tortured by demons wearing her face.

 

Add in the DA2 details about Amell and her siblings' magic being part of the reason for the downfall of her noble house, and the WOT2 details about why Jowan was doing blood magic, and it gets even worse. (Insert Wrath of Khan gif here but with SHERRRYYLLLLLLLLLLLL)

 

Still, I think both Dwarf origins might beat all the rest for me as far as tragedy (or at least Dwarf Commoner; Dwarf Noble is similar enough to Cousland but being framed / exiled + the Gorim thing + the inability to ascend the Fereldan throne give Aeducan the edge IMO. And I may be overcompensating for my mage Warden bias by saying Aeducan has it worse than Surana/Amell. I still haven't played Tabris so I don't know where it stands for me personally but I've heard it's pretty intense). All the Wardens have sad stories. To me Mahariel and Cousland have it easiest (and everything still sucks for them!), but everyone's got their own opinion.

The Brosca and Tabris origins are the ones that get to me the most. Tabris is very intense. However, keep in mind that a Dalish warden, especially if she triggered the flirt conversation with Tamlen, has to kill him later in the game. I'm pretty sure she's the only one who has to kill someone who may have been a lover (and as usual with a Dalish character, no one really takes notice of the fact you just had to kill your best friend/former lover other than a line or two from Alistair.)

 

So,  what is this information about Jowan that's in WoT2? I haven't read it yet.

[Liadan]

The Brosca and Tabris origins are the ones that get to me the most. Tabris is very intense. However, keep in mind that a Dalish warden, especially if she triggered the flirt conversation with Tamlen, has to kill him later in the game. I'm pretty sure she's the only one who has to kill someone who may have been a lover (and as usual with a Dalish character, no one really takes notice of the fact you just had to kill your best friend/former lover other than a line or two from Alistair.)

 

So,  what is this information about Jowan that's in WoT2? I haven't read it yet.

 

Here`s some of what is said about Jowan in Wot2:

 

Spoiler

First Enchanter Irving had this to say about the troubled apprentice`s time at Kinloch Hold: (...) "And Jowan...well, Jowan`s troubles came from unmet expectation, the perceived distance between «should» and «is». He never achieved things he believed were well within reach; he was disappointed in himself and thought we would be, too. We never were. If he hadn`t turned to blood magic, there would have been no cause to make him tranquil, All that happened after was a result of that decision. I think he regretted in the end, but regret counts for little. Once youtake the first step into the forbidden school, there isno stepping out again." (...)

 

There`s also a bit in Uldred`s part:

 

Spoiler

(...) Many have theorized that Jowan was one of those mages who gravitated toward Uldred`s voiced opinions and was betrayed by him. (...)

 

[Liadan]

Off-topic: I want to ask some advise. I`m playing an archer for the first time and i`m not sure what specialization should i pick. What do you think is more fun to play: tempest or artificer?

[riverbanks]

keep in mind that a Dalish warden, especially if she triggered the flirt conversation with Tamlen, has to kill him later in the game. I'm pretty sure she's the only one who has to kill someone who may have been a lover (and as usual with a Dalish character, no one really takes notice of the fact you just had to kill your best friend/former lover other than a line or two from Alistair.)

Brosca has to kill Leske, too. They have at least as much romantic implication as Mahariel and Tamlen, or at least depend as much on headcanon as them (Tamlen only says he liked Mahariel, like Leske mentions a "last time" between him and Brosca, and both relationships depend on whether your character corresponded their feelings). And they get the same tragic ending. I guess the ship didn't catch on as much in the fandom because the casteless dwarf was the least popular origin, but I remember being really heartbroken about having Leske turn on my Brosca (who had acknowleged the relationship earlier), and having to kill him later.

Of course, no one says anything about it either, not even Alistair. Even if you didn't headcanon a relationship there, you still just killed your former best friend. Harsh.

So, what is this information about Jowan that's in WoT2? I haven't read it yet.

Uldred was the one teaching Jowan blood magic and generally manipulating him. I posted the page with Jowan's blurb back when we were seeing samples on amazon, I think searching the thread for Lilly and Aeonar should come up with the posts showing the pics still. (sorry I'm on phone now or I'd search them myself)

[riverbanks]

Off-topic: I want to ask some advise. I`m playing an archer for the first time and i`m not sure what specialization should i pick. What do you think is more fun to play: tempest or artificer?

For archers, definitely Artificer. It was built for them, with a lot of ranged abilities (the traps and bombs are meant to be triggered from a distance), and a ridiculously cool focus ability that only works with bows (you can't trigger it with while wielding knives). Tempest is better suited for melee, a lot of its abilities depend on close contact with enemies, which you always want to avoid as an archer.

[Owlfruit Potion]

AAUUUGHHHH, I had a huge post here and then I accidentally clicked on someone's name, went to a different page, and AutoSave was missing half of the post when I got back! Blargh, well, here's a dashed-off version of what I had been going to say:
 

(avoiding the rest of this discussion because I'm tired of defending the Cousland origin~ but...)

There's nothing to defend it against--reading back, I said only positive things about it. It just surprises me how often I see this fandom arguing (or in many cases--not here--treating it as given) that what I consider the least miserable Origin is the saddest (and in particular that Amell or Surana has it easy), so I thought I'd share my contrary opinion. Seriously, if a Middle School Fanfic Demon were to curse people by sucking them into the game to be the Warden (with all the associated risks and benefits to their real, physical person and real emotions) but they got to choose their origin, I can't imagine almost anyone choosing anything other than Cousland.
(EDIT: And I mean living the whole thing. I suppose it's a bit of a personality test, but for me growing up in an environment that encouraged self-respect and then losing more at the start because you had more to lose would be substantially emotionally easier than losing what little you had at the start and then being treated as "less than" due to your race and/or magic status for the rest of your life.)

As for the "unarmed", guys, I meant literally. Without a staff. I'm well aware that the real test is Mouse, but 1. someone could be the world's greatest martial arts expert and I'm still not going to call them "armed" unless there's a physical weapon in their hands; 2. there is canonically still intense physical combat involved even when gameplay/story segregation isn't an issue (e.g. in the Anders codex entry DaiyoukaiGeisha linked above), and arguably gameplay/story segregation is a wash since the Harrowing functioning as tutorial level also limits how difficult the pseudo-boss can be; and 3. I have to believe the staff is a powerful focuser of abilities and not a "the power was inside you all along" crutch; if it was the latter I can't imagine Malcolm Hawke not discerning this and discarding it on principle alone, but especially given that carrying a staff increases one's risk of being identified as an apostate.

At any rate, "unarmed" was one word of dramatic flair in a sentence whose main point was this: the closest thing the mage Warden has to a family are people who knowingly throw them to a demon. Yes, they've trained for it (indirectly); yes, it's a good idea (if perhaps imperfectly implemented); and yes, it still sucks.

Again, though, I knew I was OT on this two posts ago, so this time I'll actually stop it. Or at least try to, now that it's not 2 AM and my willpower is a little higher.

And I was going to answer Tishina's Jowan question, but in the time it took me to retype this several people already have!

EDIT: I think I'm going to block myself entirely from the thread for a day or two until this conversation ends, because I really do have a hard time not continuing it. So if anyone says something to me and I don't reply, I'm not ignoring you specifically. On the plus side, by some corollary of Murphy's Law, this strongly increases the odds of major news dropping before the end of the week.

Modifié par Owlfruit Potion, 23 juillet 2015 - 03:04 .

[Liadan]

For archers, definitely Artificer. It was built for them, with a lot of ranged abilities (the traps and bombs are meant to be triggered from a distance), and a ridiculously cool focus ability that only works with bows (you can't trigger it with while wielding knives). Tempest is better suited for melee, a lot of its abilities depend on close contact with enemies, which you always want to avoid as an archer.

Then i`ll choose Artificer  . Thanks for your help! 

[Tishina]

Brosca has to kill Leske, too. They have at least as much romantic implication as Mahariel and Tamlen, or at least depend as much on headcanon as them (Tamlen only says he liked Mahariel, like Leske mentions a "last time" between him and Brosca, and both relationships depend on whether your character corresponded their feelings). And they get the same tragic ending. I guess the ship didn't catch on as much in the fandom because the casteless dwarf was the least popular origin, but I remember being really heartbroken about having Leske turn on my Brosca (who had acknowleged the relationship earlier), and having to kill him later.

Of course, no one says anything about it either, not even Alistair. Even if you didn't headcanon a relationship there, you still just killed your former best friend. Harsh.


Uldred was the one teaching Jowan blood magic and generally manipulating him. I posted the page with Jowan's blurb back when we were seeing samples on amazon, I think searching the thread for Lilly and Aeonar should come up with the posts showing the pics still. (sorry I'm on phone now or I'd search them myself)

Ah, true, I never took the flirt option with Leske, so I didn't get a line about it from him later, but good catch! His betrayal (after urging her to join the Wardens to escape) was one of the reasons I loved the origin. And yes, it was one of those moments when a little support from the companions would have been nice (though Brosca does get the one banter with Morrigan about Brosca's drunken mother.) I'm a little surprised it wasn't a popular origin, I thought it was a very close second to the Tabris origin in emotional intensity (and my daughter puts them the other way around.) I do think there are enough other things said by clan members to suggest the Tamlen relationship could be headcannoned as lovers, but I have to disagree on one thing - Tamlen the Ghoul tells you that he "always...loved you..." However, I don't think there's a point in comparing "most tragic" origins since that's incredibly subjective. Someone's subjective feeling that one isn't as tragic as others isn't an attack on that origin (I have to agree with Owlfruit Potion, though - I can't imagine intentionally choosing any of the origins except the Cousland if you had to actually live it...)

 

But back to Cullen and Surana/Amell, I think they left things open-ended enough that people can head-cannon whatever they want (which is a great thing for fanfic writers.) They've said the other origins existed but died, so even in a non-mage warden PT, there was either an Amell or a Surana that Cullen once had some level of feelings for. I'm really pleased with how they handled a mage-warden worldstate - you can avoid any mention of her if you're romancing him, or you can ask if you're OK with it (frankly, the idea of anyone making it to 30 without some sort of mild infatuation would make me personally take a very long, skeptical look at the character.) There's only an indication that he might still think of her fondly in a non-romanced worldstate, and that doesn't have to be interpreted as obsession, etc. I've never interpreted Cullen as being in love with a mage, but I do think there was at least a tentative friendship which could last and in the right circumstances could finally develop into something more. But even if someone wants to view his infatuation as love, that doesn't diminish any love he feels for someone else later. People can love more than once; if that wasn't the case, the statistics wouldn't show that widows and widowers who were happy in their first marriage are the most likely to remarry and be happy in the second marriage. The more you love, the more open to love you usually are.

[MaethorialBelle]

For archers, definitely Artificer. It was built for them, with a lot of ranged abilities (the traps and bombs are meant to be triggered from a distance), and a ridiculously cool focus ability that only works with bows (you can't trigger it with while wielding knives). Tempest is better suited for melee, a lot of its abilities depend on close contact with enemies, which you always want to avoid as an archer.

I'm so happy to finally see someone else endorse this specialisation I love being an Artificer, but people always seem to dump on it. Someone went so far as to say it shouldn't exist and needs to be replaced with something else.

 

AAUUUGHHHH, I had a huge post here and then I accidentally clicked on someone's name, went to a different page, and AutoSave was missing half of the post when I got back! Blargh, well, here's a dashed-off version of what I had been going to say:
 
There's nothing to defend it against--reading back, I said only positive things about it. It just surprises me how often I see this fandom arguing (or in many cases--not here--treating it as given) that what I consider the least miserable Origin is the saddest (and in particular that Amell or Surana has it easy), so I thought I'd share my contrary opinion. Seriously, if a Middle School Fanfic Demon were to curse people by sucking them into the game to be the Warden (with all the associated risks and benefits to their real, physical person and real emotions) but they got to choose their origin, I can't imagine almost anyone choosing anything other than Cousland.

I have to (respectfully) disagree with the bolded. If I was told that I'd start off with it all: loving parents, a beautiful home, never having to go hungry, but then I'd lose everything at the drop of a hat to an inevitable betrayal, I sure as hell wouldn't think that was the best path to take. If you wanna take that route, that Couslands have it easier, so to speak, because at least they had the good life once, I'd argue that the higher you fly the harder you fall when someone shoots your wing. I probably would choose to be Amell/Surana, purely because if you have nothing (as in everything that Couslands have) you've got nothing to lose, figuratively speaking. The climax of the mage origin just had me saying "uh oh, we're in trouble now", the Cousland origin however got me invested (by tearing my heart out). I spent the rest of the game gunning for Howe, the blight was a secondary concern. Once again, I say all this with respect and I'm not trying to say "well my origin is better than yours". The Cousland origin is my favourite though and always gets dumped on, or rather the people who like it do (not that I'm saying you're doing that) it's also very personal to me, maybe thats why I couldn't bite my tongue and scroll on by .

 

But back to Cullen and Surana/Amell, I think they left things open-ended enough that people can head-cannon whatever they want (which is a great thing for fanfic writers.) They've said the other origins existed but died, so even in a non-mage warden PT, there was either an Amell or a Surana that Cullen once had some level of feelings for. I'm really pleased with how they handled a mage-warden worldstate - you can avoid any mention of her if you're romancing him, or you can ask if you're OK with it (frankly, the idea of anyone making it to 30 without some sort of mild infatuation would make me personally take a very long, skeptical look at the character.) There's only an indication that he might still think of her fondly in a non-romanced worldstate, and that doesn't have to be interpreted as obsession, etc. I've never interpreted Cullen as being in love with a mage, but I do think there was at least a tentative friendship which could last and in the right circumstances could finally develop into something more. But even if someone wants to view his infatuation as love, that doesn't diminish any love he feels for someone else later. People can love more than once; if that wasn't the case, the statistics wouldn't show that widows and widowers who were happy in their first marriage are the most likely to remarry and be happy in the second marriage. The more you love, the more open to love you usually are.

In my canon, Amell was the female mage and Surana the male. So Cullen (unknowingly to my quizzie) still had his little crush on Amell but because she never left with Duncan she didn't survive the circle being taken over, and Cullen's had a good decade to come to terms with his feelings and her death. I personally don't think Cullen loved Amell, purely because it seems to be the common notion that they barely said two words to each other. But hey, I thought I loved a guy once for three years; we never spoke and when he tried to I ran away Cullen style   I do smile when I think about him, but it's nothing more than nostalgia (and embarrasment at my immaturity), and for me it's the same for Cullen.

[Vanalia]

I chose Tempest as archer. I don't like traps. There is that fire potion that make you able to use abilities without consuming energy and that's cool for sniping enemies.

-Biofan: thanks for that post, it's always interesting to read

[Tishina]

I'm so happy to finally see someone else endorse this specialisation I love being an Artificer, but people always seem to dump on it. Someone went so far as to say it shouldn't exist and needs to be replaced with something else.

 

I have to (respectfully) disagree with the bolded. If I was told that I'd start off with it all: loving parents, a beautiful home, never having to go hungry, but then I'd lose everything at the drop of a hat to an inevitable betrayal, I sure as hell wouldn't think that was the best path to take. If you wanna take that route, that Couslands have it easier, so to speak, because at least they had the good life once, I'd argue that the higher you fly the harder you fall when someone shoots your wing. I probably would choose to be Amell/Surana, purely because if you have nothing (as in everything that Couslands have) you've got nothing to lose, figuratively speaking. The climax of the mage origin just had me saying "uh oh, we're in trouble now", the Cousland origin however got me invested (by tearing my heart out). I spent the rest of the game gunning for Howe, the blight was a secondary concern. Once again, I say all this with respect and I'm not trying to say "well my origin is better than yours". The Cousland origin is my favourite though and always gets dumped on, or rather the people who like it do (not that I'm saying you're doing that) it's also very personal to me, maybe thats why I couldn't bite my tongue and scroll on by .

 

In my canon, Amell was the female mage and Surana the male. So Cullen (unknowingly to my quizzie) still had his little crush on Amell but because she never left with Duncan she didn't survive the circle being taken over, and Cullen's had a good decade to come to terms with his feelings and her death. I personally don't think Cullen loved Amell, purely because it seems to be the common notion that they barely said two words to each other. But hey, I thought I loved a guy once for three years; we never spoke and when he tried to I ran away Cullen style   I do smile when I think about him, but it's nothing more than nostalgia (and embarrasment at my immaturity), and for me it's the same for Cullen.

Do they really dump on it? I admit, I have no particular interest in playing an artificer myself, but that's purely personal playing style. My first thought when I saw it was that an engineer friend of mine would adore the spec (he always goes for the engineering/gadget type of specs.) Dunno why people confuse their personal likes and dislikes with universal preferences... (also, I made my archer an assassin so I haven't played a tempest archer directly yet.)

 

I think it's all in how you personally measure the tragedies. I tend to look at it from the perspective that my Brosca in particular had had such a brutal, unpleasant life that being on the run, hunted, and fighting darkspawn constantly was actually an improvement. Tabris may have had the most normal family life, but in an equally brutal and hopeless setting. The mage is hardest to compare because she was torn from what family she had then denied any family life and any chance to develop real emotional attachments to anyone (even the friendships seem fairly shallow) and then she's put in a no-win situation that almost sends her to the mage prison (a place whose description in WoT2 is pretty damned chilling.) So they're all tragic in different ways; the real difference is that we all respond to them from different places and some are more emotional for some people than others and vice versa. For me personally, the Cousland story was, well, too predictable - the noble who's family is wiped out through betrayal and who goes on the run then seeks revenge was good, but it felt like I was reading a rewrite of a dozen stories I've read before without anything that really felt new. For someone who hasn't read the same stories, it could be far more powerful. Remember, just because a story isn't powerful for someone doesn't mean that person believes that others who find it powerful are wrong.

[Ariella]

You mean your party banter is always the same over and over? Me, it's the messanger banter in Cullen's office which doesn't start. I could hear it once or twice and that's all. While I always have Joesephine's.

Yeah, it's a known bug, the banter timer is off. I've had the bet dialogue between Dorian and Varric repeat and the Solas asking Varric about Cory.

I also gotten a total of one messenger banter in Cullen's office, which is frustrating considering I want to know why Josephine is sending him candy!

[riverbanks]

It just surprises me how often I see this fandom arguing (or in many cases--not here--treating it as given) that what I consider the least miserable Origin is the saddest (and in particular that Amell or Surana has it easy), so I thought I'd share my contrary opinion.

Spoilered for OT~

Spoiler

I find the whole exercise in determining which is the most dramatic/tragic/miserable origin, which Warden has it the worst, which one suffers the most or can count the most loss knocks on their bed post to be just suffering/oppression olympics, which is why I'm personally tired of it. I'm really not fond of any of the implications in these comparisons; that to be poor is better or worse than to be free, that it is somehow less tragic to lose your family depending on how rich you are, that fighting demons or assassins or rapists is more or less horrible than each other when they're all trying to kill you just the same.... it's a big mess of dodgy and fallacious arguments all around, and I just don't think it's fair to any of the origins to compare their struggles.

It's like that person who tells you to not be upset about your personal problems because there are children starving in Africa, you know? It's a non-sequitur appeal to tragedy olympics that doesn't solve either issue - you're still sad, and the children are still starving. Telling the Cousland to not be so devastated that their family has been murdered because at least they're not in a Circle, or telling Surana to not resent the Circle so much because at least they're not in the alienage, or telling the Tabris that they're lucky to be elf poor because at least they're not dwarf poor... it's all pointless. Everyone is still suffering, and one person's tragedy doesn't lessen the others.

That's why I'm avoiding the rest of that discussion, because it inevitably goes into weird places like, "watching your entire family be murdered is just not that sad because at least you were rich before that," which... eh.

Eta: I was typing this before I saw your eta, so... disregard, I guess. Seems neither of us wants to continue this particular line of conversation, so yeah. Moving on.

As for the "unarmed", guys, I meant literally. Without a staff. I'm well aware that the real test is Mouse, but 1. someone could be the world's greatest martial arts expert and I'm still not going to call them "armed" unless there's a physical weapon in their hands;

Spoilered for even more OT~

Spoiler

That's fair for someone who uses physical combat and depends on weapons (or something that passes for it), but it doesn't hold for mages. A mage's weapon is their magic. They're never unarmed as long as they have magic - the only time I'd ever consider a mage unarmed is right after taking a Smite or Cleanse to the face and having their mana drained. The staff, like I said, is only a crutch; we see several instances of mages using their magic in aggressive, offensive and defensive ways without a staff, both in-game and in the ancillary material, to the same effect. You can still throw that fireball, drain someone's life, raise a barrier, all without a staff. As long as you know any spell at all, you're never unarmed as a mage.

Of course the mage Warden doesn't have a weapon in the Fade - they're not trained in melee. Suddenly giving a mage a sword to fight a demon in their Harrowing when they've never held one before would make no sense.

Anyway, and going back to topic! That's all an aside to the different points we were both making. I mentioned that part only because of the bit that implied Cullen was complicit in some vague intent to kill the mage going through the Harrowing, when really the Templars are there to protect the rest of the mages in the Circle from the fallout of a Harrowing turned awry.

I admire the fact that he openly tells the mage Warden he would have killed her had she failed, no matter how much it pained him on a personal level, because it shows respect too. He'd rather kill her himself than watch her husk be defiled by a demon. It's like when Isolde begs you to kill Connor herself - it's a mercy you want to deliver with your own hands to someone you care about, and Cullen would rather do that himself than watch her suffer. Shipping them together or not, that's still a very interesting bit of character depth for Cullen himself.

[Ariella]

Totally agreed. It's your story to tell. Don't worry about "what somebody else wants or has done". It's "yours" and you should write towards whatever resonates with you. Having said that, for myself, I prefer to Cullen/Female Hawke stories where it's pro-Templar (especially the ones where Hawke is a mage or pro-Mage, but ends up on the pro-Templar path). I've even read stories that took complete (or partial) canon divergences, one even had the pairing not siding with either side completely.

(nod)The head canon for this has Hawke being pro mage, but siding with the templars in the end because she just can't support an end justifies the means solution, and she KNOWS about Orsino by the end (something I wish we could have played with more in DA2) sigh.

As I said, I have viable concepts for each path. I was just torn as to which way to go. I really was on the verge of grabbing my Guild Seal and flipping it. Good side for Templars, Bad side for Mages.... or was it the other way around?

But this has helped in that it flipped things and gave me a new angle to look at the story from. Which is what I need every so often.

This is a notion I find really interesting too, but I've never seen it explored on any AU where Hawke is the Inquisitor. Considering the mess that is all of Hawke and how easily and terribly Envy could twist her mind using her emotional triggers (Malcolm's secret, Leandra's fate, whatever happened to the twins, etc), putting her in Theirinfall, between Envy and Cole, is such an interesting concept.

I know Bioware had to keep things to a certain level and couldn't build too much for any one character, but I wish they'd done more with Envy. My er head canon for the nightmare sequence is a lot more intense in general. There's so much to play with, and I love sequences like this. Ohhhh, twisting Malcolm's little mantra about not serving what is base. Bethany might be a problem since she's with the Wardens and while the readers knows what's going on, I'm not sure if Envy is really going to risk a slip. It might though... This really works. The only (minor) regret is the lack of Dorian, but that's minor.

The biggest thing now is writing Cole. He's like a seven year old channelling Obi Wan.

[Ariella]

Speaking of banters in Cullen's office... I found this being mentioned in another thread...

http://forum.bioware...ays/?p=19373784

[Tishina]

Spoilered for OT~

Spoiler

I find the whole exercise in determining which is the most dramatic/tragic/miserable origin, which Warden has it the worst, which one suffers the most or can count the most loss knocks on their bed post to be just suffering/oppression olympics, which is why I'm personally tired of it. I'm really not fond of any of the implications in these comparisons; that to be poor is better or worse than to be free, that it is somehow less tragic to lose your family depending on how rich you are, that fighting demons or assassins or rapists is more or less horrible than each other when they're all trying to kill you just the same.... it's a big mess of dodgy and fallacious arguments all around, and I just don't think it's fair to any of the origins to compare their struggles.

It's like that person who tells you to not be upset about your personal problems because there are children starving in Africa, you know? It's a non-sequitur appeal to tragedy olympics that doesn't solve either issue - you're still sad, and the children are still starving. Telling the Cousland to not be so devastated that their family has been murdered because at least they're not in a Circle, or telling Surana to not resent the Circle so much because at least they're not in the alienage, or telling the Tabris that they're lucky to be elf poor because at least they're not dwarf poor... it's all pointless. Everyone is still suffering, and one person's tragedy doesn't lessen the others.

That's why I'm avoiding the rest of that discussion, because it inevitably goes into weird places like, "watching your entire family be murdered is just not that sad because at least you were rich before that," which... eh.

Eta: I was typing this before I saw your eta, so... disregard, I guess. Seems neither of us wants to continue this particular line of conversation, so yeah. Moving on.


Spoilered for even more OT~

Spoiler

That's fair for someone who uses physical combat and depends on weapons (or something that passes for it), but it doesn't hold for mages. A mage's weapon is their magic. They're never unarmed as long as they have magic - the only time I'd ever consider a mage unarmed is right after taking a Smite or Cleanse to the face and having their mana drained. The staff, like I said, is only a crutch; we see several instances of mages using their magic in aggressive, offensive and defensive ways without a staff, both in-game and in the ancillary material, to the same effect. You can still throw that fireball, drain someone's life, raise a barrier, all without a staff. As long as you know any spell at all, you're never unarmed as a mage.

Of course the mage Warden doesn't have a weapon in the Fade - they're not trained in melee. Suddenly giving a mage a sword to fight a demon in their Harrowing when they've never held one before would make no sense.

Anyway, and going back to topic! That's all an aside to the different points we were both making. I mentioned that part only because of the bit that implied Cullen was complicit in some vague intent to kill the mage going through the Harrowing, when really the Templars are there to protect the rest of the mages in the Circle from the fallout of a Harrowing turned awry.

I admire the fact that he openly tells the mage Warden he would have killed her had she failed, no matter how much it pained him on a personal level, because it shows respect too. He'd rather kill her himself than watch her husk be defiled by a demon. It's like when Isolde begs you to kill Connor herself - it's a mercy you want to deliver with your own hands to someone you care about, and Cullen would rather do that himself than watch her suffer. Shipping them together or not, that's still a very interesting bit of character depth for Cullen himself.

I actually play my warden mages as glad to see that Cullen's the one holding the sword on the assumption that he won't strike without being certain, but trusting that he absolutely will if he is. Living as an abomination...no. I do think there is an implication that at least a few Templars abuse that position (power corrupts and they're in a position of almost unlimited power, so yes, even if most are good, decent men and women, some are going to be corrupted.) I do think it's fascinating In Hushed Whispers that you find out a Connor redeemed from the demon in DAO will resist a demon in DAI to the point of killing himself rather than giving in. It's one of the reasons I tend to side with the mages (as well as the sense that a lot of innocent people in Redcliffe are directly and immediately threatened by the Venatori takeover, which is something I don't sense from The Champions of the Just, though I love that quest too.)

 

I agree it's an interesting bit of Cullen's character, especially when he's admitting it to a mage he's infatuated with.

[riverbanks]

However, I don't think there's a point in comparing "most tragic" origins since that's incredibly subjective. Someone's subjective feeling that one isn't as tragic as others isn't an attack on that origin (I have to agree with Owlfruit Potion, though - I can't imagine intentionally choosing any of the origins except the Cousland if you had to actually live it...)

The last I'll say of this topic:

Spoiler

I had to watch my father die in front of me, and I can guarantee you that I'd never willingly choose to go through that. At that moment, it didn't matter how much money my family had or not, how stable or comfortable our housing situation was or not, how well established my raising or childhood or education or emotional support had been or not... none of that matters. Cousland does not have it "easier" than anyone because of tangential facts that are completely unrelated to how anyone would feel having to watch their whole family die. It's never easy to lose people you love, regardless of who you are or where you come from.

At least that is my limited experience, and based on that, I'd rather have the mage origin, in example, where I'd not know my parents at all, than to have to live through that again. Someone else with a different personal experience might differ and prefer to live the noble origin for their own reasons, but to generalize that no one would ever not choose that one because it's so much easier than other life experiences feels... trivializing.

Otherwise, I agree that it's pointless to argue the scale of personal tragedies. All the Wardens have it bad, and it's not a competition.

And yes, it was one of those moments when a little support from the companions would have been nice (though Brosca does get the one banter with Morrigan about Brosca's drunken mother.) I'm a little surprised it wasn't a popular origin, I thought it was a very close second to the Tabris origin in emotional intensity (and my daughter puts them the other way around.)

Heh, the more you know. I have zero patience for Morrigan's attitude in Origins so I rarely speak to her, and never saw that conversation about Brosca's mother. Shame. I might have liked having that kind of conversation with a different character that also has mom issues, maybe Zevran or Alistair. But interesting how you can play the game a million times and still not see everything there is to it!

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me that Brosca is the least popular. On top of being the least popular race, it was also pitted against another nobility origin.The game presented your options for that race as being either a prince/ss or a criminal, and for whatever reasons people have to choose their preferred stories, the nobility origin became the... more popular of the least populars.

[MaethorialBelle]

Do they really dump on it? I admit, I have no particular interest in playing an artificer myself, but that's purely personal playing style. My first thought when I saw it was that an engineer friend of mine would adore the spec (he always goes for the engineering/gadget type of specs.) Dunno why people confuse their personal likes and dislikes with universal preferences... (also, I made my archer an assassin so I haven't played a tempest archer directly yet.)

Of course they do, it wouldn't be a fandom if there wasn't any elitism I use the grunsmann's bow and have the hidden blades masterwork thing, so along with my traps it is, to quote The Iron Bull, "Mayhem"

I think it's all in how you personally measure the tragedies. I tend to look at it from the perspective that my Brosca in particular had had such a brutal, unpleasant life that being on the run, hunted, and fighting darkspawn constantly was actually an improvement. Tabris may have had the most normal family life, but in an equally brutal and hopeless setting. The mage is hardest to compare because she was torn from what family she had then denied any family life and any chance to develop real emotional attachments to anyone (even the friendships seem fairly shallow) and then she's put in a no-win situation that almost sends her to the mage prison (a place whose description in WoT2 is pretty damned chilling.) So they're all tragic in different ways; the real difference is that we all respond to them from different places and some are more emotional for some people than others and vice versa. For me personally, the Cousland story was, well, too predictable - the noble who's family is wiped out through betrayal and who goes on the run then seeks revenge was good, but it felt like I was reading a rewrite of a dozen stories I've read before without anything that really felt new. For someone who hasn't read the same stories, it could be far more powerful. Remember, just because a story isn't powerful for someone doesn't mean that person believes that others who find it powerful are wrong.

What it comes down to, for me, is what you can make of the story. The origins are just scraps, and what draws you in deeper are all the meaty (or minor) details you can add to it. There's no such thing as a predictable story for me, simply because I always seem to find a way to twist and turn things on their head. We've all walked different path's to get to where we are, we all see the world differently. There's no doubt in my mind that that's evidenced in the characters, choices and hell, even the li's we choose. I don't think any one origin is better than the others, or more important or less tragic. Perhaps it came off as me doing some dumping of my own on poor old Amell/Surana, but that wasn't my intention. It's just whenever someone says humans/couslands(especially queens)/non-mages aren't interesting it gets my hackles up and I tend to let my poor affronted heart do the typing I know not everyone who disagrees with someone else's choices are being rude or disrespectful, but there are certain words that trigger the Kill Bill-red screen-siren thing in me. In conclusion, one mans meat is another mans poison, and that's ok, just have some respect (not you personally).

[Sifr]

......I hadn't noticed, but now that you mention it I can't unsee.

 

Zoe's therapist looking a lot like Cullen has been weirding me out ever since he showed up in the game... well, that's one of the reasons it's weirded me out, the other is that he's one of many characters in that game voiced by Mark "Ser Jory" Healy.

 

[Ariella]

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me that Brosca is the least popular. On top of being the least popular race, it was also pitted against another nobility origin.The game presented your options for that race as being either a prince/ss or a criminal, and for whatever reasons people have to choose their preferred stories, the nobility origin became the... more popular of the least populars.

I don't tend to play dwarves in any game (mostly a perspective issue in most, the camera angles drive me nuts), but I actually found Brosca more compelling than Aeducan if only because it's somewhat less cliche. Aeducan made me wonder if I'd taken a wrong turn and ended up in the Underdark it was so very Drow.

My favorite origin is Tabris because it resonates personally. I end up playing Cousland most of the time, just because I don't want to put up with having to convince Alistair that taking a mistress isn't a bad thing. And I do like direct connection to Howe. IIRC they were going to do something like the nemesis quests in DAO, but it got cut.

[MaethorialBelle]

The last I'll say of this topic:

Spoiler

I had to watch my father die in front of me, and I can guarantee you that I'd never willingly choose to go through that. At that moment, it didn't matter how much money my family had or not, how stable or comfortable our housing situation was or not, how well established my raising or childhood or education or emotional support had been or not... none of that matters. Cousland does not have it "easier" than anyone because of tangential facts that are completely unrelated to how anyone would feel having to watch their whole family die. It's never easy to lose people you love, regardless of who you are or where you come from.

At least that is my limited experience, and based on that, I'd rather have the mage origin, in example, where I'd not know my parents at all, than to have to live through that again. Someone else with a different personal experience might differ and prefer to live the noble origin for their own reasons, but to generalize that no one would ever not choose that one because it's so much easier than other life experiences feels... trivializing.

Otherwise, I agree that it's pointless to argue the scale of personal tragedies. All the Wardens have it bad, and it's not a competition.

This is what I was trying to say, you always put it into better words than me.

Spoiler

And I'm so sorry you had to go through that