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[R2s Muse]

Well, considering that the whole Architect is yet another Magister thing getting dropped on us in WoT after being vaguer than hell, and having absolutely no setup (not that I'm bitter or annoyed or anything or just loath the character on general principle) I have no problem believing they dropped a year on us for Cullen, even if she was trying to be vague. That and the year is very specific, unlike Hawke whose estimated to be 24-25 at the beginning of DA 2, per David Gaider iirc. Then there's the fact there's a citation, which is specific. There's also the fact that prior to WoT 2 coming out his background information was sparse. Mentioning only Mia, and two other sibs but no names. That's been expanded including things like the fact that Mia was Cullen's biggest supporter when he decided to become a Templar, after initial ribbing at least. It also mentions he was eight when he announced that fact.

I don't think there's any cloak and dagger mystery here. The BW devs have their own internal wiki of info with information that has been established for years, whereas some of it has only been established recently and some of it has only been revealed recently. What's more, they've admitted that there are inconsistencies in a lot of the old stuff, which is why they hired Ben Gelinas to set it all in order and publish the WoT volumes. 

 

DG has often told us things that are details in their internal wiki that have never been revealed, like the fact that Dawn of the Seeker takes place in 9:22. But, there are also huge errors, for example, early information on Dawn of the Seeker that said the Divine was Justinia, or the inaccurate dates in Asunder (don't get me started). Or that even the first volume of WoT, pre-errata, had the year of the Calling wrong, which had huge implications for whether Fiona was Alistair's mom. 

 

On Hawke, they tell us in the Legacy DLC that Leandra was pregnant with Hawke when they left Kirkwall. In Act 1 of DA2, Gamlen says she left 25 years ago. So I think that was actually pretty well established in game. 

 

Cullen, on the other hand, had no real history until Brianne wrote it for DA:I. So that's all relatively new. Brianne even gave him his name. Her age for Cullen "roughly 30" matches the rough math from WoT2, but neither says he was born in 9:11. Their internal wiki may say "9:11" but she specifically wasn't specific, probably because, as she so often says, she wants to leave some things up to our imaginations. But, she has known the names of the sibs and their birth order, to the degree it is known, even if it wasn't in game, and has answered questions on it before WoT2 came out. It's just a question of them now publishing it officially in WoT2.  

 

tl;dr 

So I wouldn't think of World of Thedas being them pulling stuff out of their ass. It's them pulling stuff out of their attic and internal files and sharing for the first time. 

[R2s Muse]

 

But that goes into what Tish said about it not being DA:Cullen, unfortunately. As much as we want more writing! All the writing! for Cullen, the rest of the game needs that word count too. What I think would have helped all romances would have been... less romances over all. I know this is not a very popular opinion because no one wants to think of their fave not being romanceable, but we just have to look at the differences between DAO/DA2 romances (Sebastian notwithstanding  ) and DAI romances - the less love interest options we had, the better written and more in-depth their romance paths were. I think that shaving off a few romances from Inquisition (while still offering choices for everyone - really the DA2 model was ideal) might have made for meatier, better written romances overall, without having to stretch the word count everywhere until each LI barely gets a bucketfull.

Agree. I think the same can be said for all companion content, not just the romances. I say this full well knowing that my two fave romances would be cut, but there were too many to do them justice. As I've said a billion times before, I'd trade a billion desert environments for more companion content. Not that there were a BILLION deserts... coughcough. 

[Ariella]

tl;dr
So I wouldn't think of World of Thedas as being them pulling stuff out of their ass. It's them pulling stuff out of their attic and internal files and sharing for the first time.

There's an old story about Harlan Ellison going to a bookstore and starting to write. He'd put up each page in the window as he finished. No edit, no nothing. This feels kind of the same. It's as much a type of performance art since it is making it up as they went along.

And I don't find this to be that bad of a thing.

The Architect just annoyed me because of Checkov's law. There was no setup for him to be that kind of thing. His no memory was blank slate. He could have been anything. And to have a crucial.plot point like this dropped in ancilary material is kind of annoying.

It's also different from developing someone who was supposed to be aone shot. We're talking the big bad of DAA. Or one of them.

[riverbanks]

But even with it being +/- a year, my original point remains about Hawke being older and thus amusing as hell.

 

Yes! This is true, and always an amusing thing to think about, how much of Cullen's life is influenced by women quite older than him (Hawke, Meredith, Cassandra).

 

I actually have a lot of funny scenarios between my Hawke, Sebastian, my Inquisitor and Cullen in regards to his age, since they're all four connected in my world state and Cullen happens to be the baby of the squad. It's really funny to imagine my 36 years old married with kids and Viscount of her own city-state Hawke at Skyhold, teasing baby little ~around 30 years old Cullen who's only just getting his first steady job and girlfriend, as he huffs and puffs and grumbles about being Commander! of! the! Inquisition! and deserving more respect.

[R2s Muse]

Yes! This is true, and always an amusing thing to think about, how much of Cullen's life is influenced by women quite older than him (Hawke, Meredith, Cassandra).

 

I actually have a lot of funny scenarios between my Hawke, Sebastian, my Inquisitor and Cullen in regards to his age, since they're all four connected in my world state and Cullen happens to be the baby of the squad. It's really funny to imagine my 36 years old married with kids and Viscount of her own city-state Hawke at Skyhold, teasing baby little ~around 30 years old Cullen who's only just getting his first steady job and girlfriend, as he huffs and puffs and grumbles about being Commander! of! the! Inquisition! and deserving more respect.

LOL This is perhaps why my canon ship for Cullen is still Hawke, in a world where DA:I doesn't exist and they're about the same age still. I just still can't wrap my head around him being so much younger. :shrug: At least as they age, it's less of an issue.

[riverbanks]

That they're considered canon and had not been retconned out, especially since I found Anders' story... problematic with the claim the Wardens allowed the templar to set a watch on him.

I figure somebody is lying his tongue black, but I don't see the Warden Commander (either the HoF or the Orlesian WC) accepting what is implied as a sudden influx of templar recruits. So there's an odd disconnect. Though I like the idea that Anders and his escapes have reached vendetta level on the templars part.

 

Personal headcanons of each player's Warden-Commander aside, the Wardens seem pretty eager for Templar recruits in Last Flight. It makes sense: Templars are already well trained and skilled fighters, and have magic-annuling abilities that can be very useful against Darkspawn Emissaries. So a number of them joining up is like dropping a gift onto a Warden-Commander's lap - specially one who just had their new stronghold destroyed or damaged by the Architect's attack, and their already meager numbers cut in half by losing Velanna, Justice, and potentially more.

 

So you factor in the Warden-Commander being in dire straits after the siege of Amaranthine, a bunch of former Templars showing up to join the Grey Wardens with ready swords and useful abilities (for whatever reasons of their own), and Anders suddenly acting pretty strange after Justice's mysterious disappearance after leaving Kristoff's body... it all adds up.

 

Worth noting, though, that while all the short stories are canon, Anders' is the only one that depends on your Awakening results to be true, as it can only happen if he survives Amaranthine. If he "dies" at the siege, the slide says his charred body can't be properly identified, and Anders does address that in dialogue with Nathaniel in DA2, implying he ran away during the battle. In this case, he ran directly to Kirkwall, skipping the whole background of that short story. I personally find Anders' short story a bit distasteful overall, even if I love the other ones (Sebastian's and Fenris' in particular), so I've changed the ending of my Awakening playthrough to let Anders "die" in battle, so he can desert and take off before the whole incident with the Templar!Wardens ever happens.

[R2s Muse]

There's an old story about Harlan Ellison going to a bookstore and starting to write. He'd put up each page in the window as he finished. No edit, no nothing. This feels kind of the same. It's as much a type of performance art since it is making it up as they went along.

And I don't find this to be that bad of a thing.

There's surely some degree of that, too.

 

*cough*cough*elvhen gods showing up in person when the DA universe pledged to never feature gods in the flesh*cough*cough*

[R2s Muse]

That they're considered canon and had not been retconned out, especially since I found Anders' story... problematic with the claim the Wardens allowed the templar to set a watch on him.

I figure somebody is lying his tongue black, but I don't see the Warden Commander (either the HoF or the Orlesian WC) accepting what is implied as a sudden influx of templar recruits. So there's an odd disconnect. Though I like the idea that Anders and his escapes have reached vendetta level on the templars part.

I'm honestly less familiar with the Anders one, so I'm not sure. I'm not aware of any formal retcon there, except that apparently there was a lot of confusion about the whole cannibalism thing. LOL 

[riverbanks]

LOL This is perhaps why my canon ship for Cullen is still Hawke, in a world where DA:I doesn't exist and they're about the same age still. I just still can't wrap my head around him being so much younger. :shrug: At least as they age, it's less of an issue.

 

Tell me about it! I can still neither wrap my head around Cullen being so much younger than I ever figured him for, nor around the fact that Hawke is well into the second half of her thirties towards forties by the time of Inquisition! Seems like it was only yesterday that she arrived in Kirkwall, fresh-faced and innocent... oh my dear bird. *single soccer mama tear*

 

You know what's hot, though? The fact that Hawke is around 35-36 in DAI means Sebastian is hitting and probably passing 40 by that same time. 40 years old Prince Sebastian, sitting on his rightful throne, scratching his very regal new facial hair, little strands of grey starting to discreetly pop up here and there on his longer, also very regal new haircut. Yummmmmmmy.

[skylark]

Speaking only for myself as someone known to dislike Cullen/mage romances in general and Inquisition's in particular - I still don't think gating him against mages is the answer. The mage romance should have just been written better, not written out.

 

I'm not meaning to continue this, but I just want to say that I'm not contesting whether Cullen should/shouldn't be in a mage relationship. I perfectly agree that it should have been written better. I only meant that as it is in the game, would people have preferred no mage romance at all in lieu of the persistent "are you ok with this," dialogue.

[skylark]

There's surely some degree of that, too.

 

*cough*cough*elvhen gods showing up in person when the DA universe pledged to never feature gods in the flesh*cough*cough*

 

Couldn't they get around that by saying 'oh well you know, they're not really god gods so much as really old and powerful elves...?' lol I'm trying to become more well-versed in the lore, but that was my understanding based on my limited knowledge...

[Ariella]

There's surely some degree of that, too.
 
*cough*cough*elvhen gods showing up in person when the DA universe pledged to never feature gods in the flesh*cough*cough*

Hey, I've seen creators lie their tongues black to keep plot points secret . So it doesn't surprise me.

Riverbanks, my only problem is that the WC experienced the templars' hate for Anders first had if his personal quest is done. So while the WC would be wanting trained troops, having this sudden huge influx with a mage they want dead in the ranks, a mage who proved himself, would have me nervous. And it gets worse if the assertion that the Wardens sanctioned it is true. I don't believe it since it's completely out of character for the GW philosophy but the possibility is there.

And yes, Cullen is not wanting for female influence in his life. I'd love a canon short with him and Mia. Don't care when, but that relationship needs to be told.

And Cullen as grammer school age. Potential to surpass chibi cuteness.

[Ariella]

Tell me about it! I can still neither wrap my head around Cullen being so much younger than I ever figured him for, nor around the fact that Hawke is well into the second half of her thirties towards forties by the time of Inquisition! Seems like it was only yesterday that she arrived in Kirkwall, fresh-faced and innocent... oh my dear bird. *single soccer mama tear*
 
You know what's hot, though? The fact that Hawke is around 35-36 in DAI means Sebastian is hitting and probably passing 40 by that same time. 40 years old Prince Sebastian, sitting on his rightful throne, scratching his very regal new facial hair, little strands of grey starting to discreetly pop up here and there on his longer, also very regal new haircut. Yummmmmmmy.

Do we have a thing for Sebastian? He struck me as of an age with Hawke at best being a third son.

As for f!Hawke/Cullen. Hawke always struck me as one of those people who's just so vibrant age doesn't matter. She could be anywhere from 20-40 and it wouldn't matter because she's Hawke.

[riverbanks]

I'm not meaning to continue this, but I just want to say that I'm not contesting whether Cullen should/shouldn't be in a mage relationship. I perfectly agree that it should have been written better. I only meant that as it is in the game, would people have preferred no mage romance at all in lieu of the persistent "are you ok with this," dialogue.

 

Yeah, I get where you were going, but I don't think anyone critical of the mage romance would actually prefer it to not exist - Cullen being race-gated is already a sore thorn on everyone's side as it is (even if we know it was a matter of time constrains rather than having any story explanation) that I don't think anyone would want more gating around him - specially since the issue is not whether he could/should romance a mage at all, but how poorly that dynamic was written. If we (who criticize that aspect of how that romance is currently presented in-game) could have impossible changes, I think we'd just rather the romance be written better than not at all.

 

So we're basically all agreein on the same thing.

[riverbanks]

Do we have a thing for Sebastian? He struck me as of an age with Hawke at best being a third son.

As for f!Hawke/Cullen. Hawke always struck me as one of those people who's just so vibrant age doesn't matter. She could be anywhere from 20-40 and it wouldn't matter because she's Hawke.

 

Girl, do we ever have a thing for Sebastian. I carry a flame, a torch, a volcano, an entire inferno for that man. *cough* In any case, I have a bit of internal headcanon that Sebastian is of an age with Nathaniel, who is 30 by the time of Awakening while Hawke would be 26~ish then, so to me Seb's got some four years or such on Hawke. There's nothing in canon that suggests (or denies) this, though, it's just a personal theory.

 

Where I place the Cullen/Hawke in my canon, he would be 23-ish as she would be 29-ish, which looks a bit scary when written down, but I do agree with you that hawke is such a special case that the number doesn't matter. And Cullen too, actually. The amount of life experience he has at 23/24, four-five years the Blight, is nothing to dismiss. With how vibrant Hawke always is, and how experienced Cullen is for his young age, I think it could still work with only minor internal brain screeching.

 

(Still it doesn't work out anyway and Hawke goes on to be with Sebastian while Cullen goes on to be with Inquisitor, so the mess figures itself out in the end. Phew. )

[R2s Muse]

Tell me about it! I can still neither wrap my head around Cullen being so much younger than I ever figured him for, nor around the fact that Hawke is well into the second half of her thirties towards forties by the time of Inquisition! Seems like it was only yesterday that she arrived in Kirkwall, fresh-faced and innocent... oh my dear bird. *single soccer mama tear*

 

You know what's hot, though? The fact that Hawke is around 35-36 in DAI means Sebastian is hitting and probably passing 40 by that same time. 40 years old Prince Sebastian, sitting on his rightful throne, scratching his very regal new facial hair, little strands of grey starting to discreetly pop up here and there on his longer, also very regal new haircut. Yummmmmmmy.

Bless you and your house for this image.

 

[R2s Muse]

Couldn't they get around that by saying 'oh well you know, they're not really god gods so much as really old and powerful elves...?' lol I'm trying to become more well-versed in the lore, but that was my understanding based on my limited knowledge...

Yes, and they surely will. This was hinted in DA:I, but not outright explained. Still. Having Fen'harel HIS FREAKIN SELF traipse through your bed door flirts awfully close to breaking the First Law of Dragon Age. 

 

edited to add: My own feeling is that they'll leave the actual Creators (not who the elves call the Creators) as an actual mystery requiring faith, as well as the Maker. I kind of hoped they'd do the same with the Old Gods, who we already know are not Creators, but then again... we've already seen one archdemon in the tainted flesh. So whatever the Old Gods are, I think we're headed for an explanation of them, too.

[Tishina]

Do you think it would've been better if they just gated him having a romance with a mage? I know everyone hates that sort of thing, but I've never played a mage so I'm genuinely curious. Would Cullen refusing a mage relationship have been more believable/acceptable then him just repeatedly asking if it was okay? I know you're saying you think the relationship is possible, but I'm referencing specifically to what we were given in the game versus not having it. _{god I hope that didn't sound belligerent... T^T}

I think R2 answered this quite well. I'd just add that my Cullenmancer is a Dalish mage, so she wouldn't realize the intensity of the mage-Templar conflict, etc. She asked him about the mage issue once, and took his word for it. She was much more concerned about whether he was serious or not because she was a heathen Dalish (something they at least allow you to ask about. And since age has been a subject today, she's older than him - mid 30s at least, btw, and I headcannon her as leaving a mage-gifted daughter behind with the clan, a teenager who's the Keeper's second . It's my way of keeping her (elven) bloodline with the Dalish even if she and Cullen decide to have (human) children. And I kind of like the idea of Cullen having a partner who's on a very even keel with some solid, ordinary life experience.

 

Edit for top: Speaking of Volya and Cullen

[Hellion Rex]

Yes, and they surely will. This was hinted in DA:I, but not outright explained. Still. Having Fen'harel HIS FREAKIN SELF traipse through your bed door flirts awfully close to breaking the First Law of Dragon Age. 

 

edited to add: My own feeling is that they'll leave the actual Creators (not who the elves call the Creators) as an actual mystery requiring faith, as well as the Maker. I kind of hoped they'd do the same with the Old Gods, who we already know are not Creators, but then again... we've already seen one archdemon in the tainted flesh. So whatever the Old Gods are, I think we're headed for an explanation of them, too.

I kinda want to know what they are though. I am really, really interested in where they are taking the elven pantheon story right now.

[stop_him]

I think R2 answered this quite well. I'd just add that my Cullenmancer is a Dalish mage, so she wouldn't realize the intensity of the mage-Templar conflict, etc. She asked him about the mage issue once, and took his word for it. She was much more concerned about whether he was serious or not because she was a heathen Dalish (something they at least allow you to ask about. And since age has been a subject today, she's older than him - mid 30s at least, btw, and I headcannon her as leaving a mage-gifted daughter behind with the clan, a teenager who's the Keeper's second . It's my way of keeping her (elven) bloodline with the Dalish even if she and Cullen decide to have (human) children. And I kind of like the idea of Cullen having a partner who's on a very even keel with some solid, ordinary life experience.

 

Edit for top: Speaking of Volya and Cullen

+1 for elf+Cullen. My fav pair!

[Ariella]

Girl, do we ever have a thing for Sebastian. I carry a flame, a torch, a volcano, an entire inferno for that man. *cough* In any case, I have a bit of internal headcanon that Sebastian is of an age with Nathaniel, who is 30 by the time of Awakening while Hawke would be 26~ish then, so to me Seb's got some four years or such on Hawke. There's nothing in canon that suggests (or denies) this, though, it's just a personal theory.

The only reason I ask is because he mentions that he knew his grandfather, which tells me his parents weren't that old. And the way Sebastian talks about him make me think he wasn't a teen but wasn't in single digits either. It's the whole discussion about the bow and his grandfather wanting something of the quiet life of a Chantry brother.

It's gut, I happily admit. I also admit to having a thing for any accent that comes out of the British Isles. I just never romanced Sebastian because my Hawke tends to be a flirt. And as I understand, you can't do that and then romance the boy.

Where I place the Cullen/Hawke in my canon, he would be 23-ish as she would be 29-ish, which looks a bit scary when written down, but I do agree with you that hawke is such a special case that the number doesn't matter. And Cullen too, actually. The amount of life experience he has at 23/24, four-five years the Blight, is nothing to dismiss. With how vibrant Hawke always is, and how experienced Cullen is for his young age, I think it could still work with only minor internal brain screeching.

I get no internal brain screeching, but part of my idea of romance was formed by Lisa Hayes and Rick Hunter. She's 24 at the beginning and he's nineteen. And watching them try not to murder each other was one of the highlights of my preteen years

(Still it doesn't work out anyway and Hawke goes on to be with Sebastian while Cullen goes on to be with Inquisitor, so the mess figures itself out in the end. Phew. )

Originally I wouldn't have paired them, but then I started going 'what if'. And that led to madness and furious typing.

[R2s Muse]

The only reason I ask is because he mentions that he knew his grandfather, which tells me his parents weren't that old. And the way Sebastian talks about him make me think he wasn't a teen but wasn't in single digits either. It's the whole discussion about the bow and his grandfather wanting something of the quiet life of a Chantry brother.

It's gut, I happily admit. I also admit to having a thing for any accent that comes out of the British Isles. I just never romanced Sebastian because my Hawke tends to be a flirt. And as I understand, you can't do that and then romance the boy.

Curiously, the wiki says Seb was born in 9:09, making him four year younger than Hawke. There's no citation, though, and I couldn't find anything at all about his age in WoT2. So I actually have no idea where that might come from. I can't remember the details anymore of when we used to talk about it, except that DA2 only offers a few boundary conditions since he had been in Chantry for ten years or something at one point in DA2 and he got his bow from grandpa beforehand at age 13 or something.

On romancing him in DA2, the not-flirting thing ended up to not be true.
 

I kinda want to know what they are though. I am really, really interested in where they are taking the elven pantheon story right now.

LOL I know. I do, too. It just still irks me that we're explaining away "divine" beings when they said they wouldn't. I'm even more interested in the Old Gods. That I **really** want to know. Even if I close one eye to read it. [[oh, and the story behind the Black City. maybe.  ]]

[R2s Muse]

I'm not meaning to continue this, but I just want to say that I'm not contesting whether Cullen should/shouldn't be in a mage relationship. I perfectly agree that it should have been written better. I only meant that as it is in the game, would people have preferred no mage romance at all in lieu of the persistent "are you ok with this," dialogue.

TBH, I'd be surprised if any Cullen fan, after all this time, would prefer less content over more, even if the content is limited or problematic in some way. Cullen's whole romance was written with a remarkable economy of words, so my hat is constantly off to Brianne for what she achieved within her word count limitations. I think the mage dialogue (which, in the interest of full disclosure, I've never gotten, since I haven't rolled a mage) is one of the few times the economy of words did the messaging a disservice. But in the grand scheme, the disservice is pretty minor compared to other things, like Lavellan not knowing who Mythal is or the dwarves dreaming, etc.

[Tarlonniel]

Do you think it would've been better if they just gated him having a romance with a mage?

 

ACK!! Don't say such things! *hugs her Cullen/mage romance protectively*

 

Seriously, it could have been so much worse. Two optional lines about the Inquisitor's insecurity are worth noting in passing as a bit much, given the limited word budget, but in the grand scheme of it all? Not a big deal. Not in any way worth eliminating a romance which some of us had been craving for six years.

[Tishina]

+1 for elf+Cullen. My fav pair!

Mine too! (Thought that's partly because my dwarves don't have anyone I can get remotely invested in.) And I think a Dalish mage who was essentially the clan-leader-in-waiting by her age would intrigue him - here's a mage not only raised without the oppressively coercive circle system, but trained to lead including their combat defenses -  makes a certain amount of sense paired with a Cullen who's trying to rethink his previous stand on mages. I headcannon them having long conversations at Haven about how the Dalish handle mages when he began asking questions, and Cullen, who's usually very honest, being struck by the fact that their mages don't seem to have more of a problem (and possibly less, we really don't know enough) with becoming abominations and going on a killing spree. Of course, I personally suspect that this is due to the retconned limit by which they push out excess mages (some harshly like the mage apprentice studying monsters, some possibly with much better preparation like the merc Dalish,) which I suspect is how Keepers rid clans of mages they think might be particularly vulnerable to possession. And I headcannon Cullen enjoying talking to a mage who isn't afraid of him (ex-Templar, omg!) treats his curiosity with respect, and teases him, but gently, which would be Volya.

 

ACK!! Don't say such things! *hugs her Cullen/mage romance protectively*

 

Seriously, it could have been so much worse. Two optional lines about the Inquisitor's insecurity are worth noting in passing as a bit much, given the limited word budget, but in the grand scheme of it all? Not a big deal. Not in any way worth eliminating a romance which some of us had been craving for six years.

Actually, I think there may be 3 or 4 optional lines on it, depending on conversational choices, but like I said, I dodged all but the first one, which I headcannon she asked mostly because of things she overheard the Templar and mage forces saying. I just wish that repetition been replaced by the option to explore his attitudes about elves and the Dalish specifically, but that's just part of my personal wish list