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[jtav]

I actually think his ideas are the only real hope for lasting peace. Because what seems to work for mages is integration with the larger community without necessarily ruling over that community. Look at the Avvar. Those mages have to what looked to be like pretty clearly defined roles in the society that are respected and valued. So things like the mixed military service and healer's clinics might be a way to extrapolate that to a nontribal society. Smart boy.

[Ariella]

I actually agree with you, to a point. I also wish that there had been more dialogue in the game about the ways in which his views have evolved since DA2. I feel like there was an attempt to simplify some of his more problematic character traits in favor of simplifying his issue to be the general Templar issue with lyrium. And much of his current dissatisfaction with the Templar order comes from things that happened off screen between the games that aren't explained.

I don't agree, however, with the notion that there was no evolution of his views during the last game. They actually evolved quite a bit and by the end he's even siding with a mage (perhaps), in favor of mages against his superior and expresses considerable doubts about Meredith's actions during Act 3. For example, he actually does not support the tranquil solution. He says that there are reasons that tranquility is a solution, acknowledging as well that the mages disagree, but the Right of Tranquility itself is different than what Alrik was advocating with the tranquil solution. Even Meredith did not support the tranquil solution, and denied Alrik's request.

Regarding the Mage Underground Codex that you quoted, I don't see anything in there about harsher treatment of mages. Instead he talks about reaching out to the citizenry and changing their hearts and minds about the Mage problem so that they stop helping the Mage underground rebels.

Now, what does seem to be true, and is often overlooked in his characterization in the new game, is that he still supports there being some kind of limitations for the mages. He doesn't advocate pure freedom so it's not a total 180 in his views. But during his romance, for example, you could have extensive conversations with him about what a mage solution might look like, and his ideas are far more humane than the circle system.

 

 

And his attitude when one recruits the mages as allies is actually similar to Vivienne's. Their major concern is that with the Breach, spirits and demons are going to be drawn to EVERYONE, not just mages, but mages are the biggest threat and there aren't enough templars working with the Inquisition to handle these kind of issues. It's an understandable fear. Add to that some of those mages might have chosen to follow the lead of their Tevinter benefactors. It's possible there might be blood mages among them. And as a military Commander, this is Cullen's responsibility. 

[SgtSteel91]

Sorry, I didn't make it clear that I don't think Cullen didn't go through an evolution between DA2 and DAI. Just that those scenes can be easy to interpret that way (and they have from certain Cullen-hate/Templar-hate blogs).

 

Although the way I wrote it may be biased, I support the Mages more than the Templars and believe Cullen should work with the allied Mages to make sure there aren't any problems with abominations rather than bring in Templars to act like they did in Circles (which lead to the rebellion in the first place). And that ultimately I think it should be the Mages who govern themselves with Templar/local government support (as outlined in the Free Mages codex) rather than the Chantry governing and enforcing with the Templars, which Mages have little voice in either group.

[riverbanks]

Although the way I wrote it may be biased, I support the Mages more than the Templars and believe Cullen should work with the allied Mages to make sure there aren't any problems with abominations rather than bring in Templars to act like they did in Circles (which lead to the rebellion in the first place). And that ultimately I think it should be the Mages who govern themselves with Templar/local government support (as outlined in the Free Mages codex) rather than the Chantry governing and enforcing it with the Templars, which Mages have little voice in either group.

 

And that's a valid position for your own character, but those are not necessarily things that Cullen believes in.

 

Cullen being pro-Circle, wary of the potential of magic for either good or evil, and respecting the purpose of the Templar Order (even while fully admitting its failures), are real and important characteristics of him. They're part of his character, and shouldn't be dismissed as "he hasn't evolved enough," as if the only acceptable direction that his character could have grown into was to turn completely around into a fully pro-mage all-freedom all-revolution advocate. He was never going to be that - even in DAO, when he was at his most candid and trusting, the purpose of his character was never to be the Templar who completely changes his point of view and becomes a radical mage rights freedom fighter instead. (Evangeline has filled that role, more or less)

 

At some point I think we have to look at this criticism of "he hasn't evolved enough" and acknowledge how much of it is rooted in the real issues in his writing (the offscreen development, the lack of of a cohesive timeline, etc, the things we always mention), and how much of it is rooted in players projecting their own personal expectations onto him, and finding that the character Cullen is doesn't fit their expectations of what they wanted him to be. Cullen is pro-Circle. He does think Templars are needed. Even if his new ideas for the Circle involve more personal freedoms and social responsibilities for mages (and of course, no abuses), he still thinks the Circles are necessary as learning institutions, he still thinks mages need formal training and structure, he still thinks Templars are necessary (not as jailors, but as actual protectors), etc. He does not believe in complete unchecked freedom, and likely never will, given his experiences. And these beliefs, whether we like them or not, are part of who Cullen is as much as, say, the beliefs that made Anders who he was.

 

I feel that expecting Cullen to completely abandon everything he believes in in favor of supporting a new idealized version of his character who is only still him in looks and name is a bit unfair to the character - we don't ask Anders to become a Circle apologist as a way of character evolution, so why should we ask Cullen to become a full mage freedom apologist in order to evolve, when that's not the character he is supposed to be? He can evolve, he can grown, he can come around old prejudices, he can learn to deal with his traumas in less destructive ways, he can form new opinions and see new ways to handle an old problem, without changing who he is at the core of his character. As much as we want Cullen to respect our Inquisitors's beliefs (whatever they may be), it's only fair that we respect his too; that we let Cullen be who he is and don't try to change him into who we wish he was.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

 

 

I'm worried now... 

 

Relax, people. It's gonna be fine.

[Ariella]

Relax, people. It's gonna be fine.

Cue Mst 3k theme

[R2s Muse]

And that's a valid position for your own character, but those are not necessarily things that Cullen believes in.

Cullen being pro-Circle, wary of the potential of magic for either good or evil, and respecting the purpose of the Templar Order (even while fully admitting its failures), are real and important characteristics of him. They're part of his character, and shouldn't be dismissed as "he hasn't evolved enough," as if the only acceptable direction that his character could have grown into was to turn completely around into a fully pro-mage all-freedom all-revolution advocate. He was never going to be that - even in DAO, when he was at his most candid and trusting, the purpose of his character was never to be the Templar who completely changes his point of view and becomes a radical mage rights freedom fighter instead. (Evangeline has filled that role, more or less)

At some point I think we have to look at this criticism of "he hasn't evolved enough" and acknowledge how much of it is rooted in the real issues in his writing (the offscreen development, the lack of of a cohesive timeline, etc, the things we always mention), and how much of it is rooted in players projecting their own personal expectations onto him, and finding that the character Cullen is doesn't fit their expectations of what they wanted him to be. Cullen is pro-Circle. He does think Templars are needed. Even if his new ideas for the Circle involve more personal freedoms and social responsibilities for mages (and of course, no abuses), he still thinks the Circles are necessary as learning institutions, he still thinks mages need formal training and structure, he still thinks Templars are necessary (not as jailors, but as actual protectors), etc. He does not believe in complete unchecked freedom, and likely never will, given his experiences. And these beliefs, whether we like them or not, are part of who Cullen is as much as, say, the beliefs that made Anders who he was.

I feel that expecting Cullen to completely abandon everything he believes in in favor of supporting a new idealized version of his character who is only still him in looks and name is a bit unfair to the character - we don't ask Anders to become a Circle apologist as a way of character evolution, so why should we ask Cullen to become a full mage freedom apologist in order to evolve, when that's not the character he is supposed to be? He can evolve, he can grown, he can come around old prejudices, he can learn to deal with his traumas in less destructive ways, he can form new opinions and see new ways to handle an old problem, without changing who he is at the core of his character. As much as we want Cullen to respect our Inquisitors's beliefs (whatever they may be), it's only fair that we respect his too; that we let Cullen be who he is and don't try to change him into who we wish he was.

LOL I couldn't have said it better. Thank you, because I'm on my phone right now.

[riverbanks]

So there's talk of datamining the patch files for Trespasser spoilers now, so just so we're all on the same page... we're doing spoilers blackout in the thread again, right? (all spoilers tagged and hidden under cuts, I mean)

 

I'd like to at least get to release date without being spoiled, but we also have people who won't be able to play right at release, and we should be courteous to them too, even after it's out.

[Ariella]

So there's talk of datamining the patch files for Trespasser spoilers now, so just so we're all on the same page... we're doing spoilers blackout in the thread again, right? (all spoilers tagged and hidden under cuts, I mean)
 
I'd like to at least get to release date without being spoiled, but we also have people who won't be able to play right at release, and we should be courteous to them too, even after it's out.

Makes sense. I've got no problem with it.

I hate datamining.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I actually think his ideas are the only real hope for lasting peace. Because what seems to work for mages is integration with the larger community without necessarily ruling over that community. Look at the Avvar. Those mages have to what looked to be like pretty clearly defined roles in the society that are respected and valued. So things like the mixed military service and healer's clinics might be a way to extrapolate that to a nontribal society. Smart boy.

 

Can anyone give me a link to any clips where Cullen discusses what is his solution for mages ? I heard it once before and I really like it but I want to hear it again. Because Cully Wully. Because reasons.

[R2s Muse]

So there's talk of datamining the patch files for Trespasser spoilers now, so just so we're all on the same page... we're doing spoilers blackout in the thread again, right? (all spoilers tagged and hidden under cuts, I mean)

I'd like to at least get to release date without being spoiled, but we also have people who won't be able to play right at release, and we should be courteous to them too, even after it's out.

Absolutely. There will be some major stuff in this DLC, so I think spoilers should be avoided for a while after release as well.

[Ariella]

Absolutely. There will be some major stuff in this DLC, so I think spoilers should be avoided for a while after release as well.

We used to embargo spoilers for at least a month or two back when I was in thr btvs fandom. I think that might be a good guide. Maybe one more, but I figured I'd put it out there.

[Hellion Rex]

Also, since slips tend to happen, maybe unsubscribe from emails about the replies in this thread? Spoilers will still show through on emails, even if they were tagged on the actual forum.

[Potato Cat]

Also, the spoilers are now floating about on tumblr, for anyone who uses that website. (Sadly for me, it's the spoilers I've already seen, but whatever it's not like need to know everything right now or anything  )

[Arshei]

Please, this is a polite thread, where people are civil to each other and supportive about one of their favorite characters. If you just want to throw mud, please don't.

 

I apologize for my terrible comment in a thread called "Official Cullen DISCUSSION"

[riverbanks]

Also, the spoilers are now floating about on tumblr, for anyone who uses that website. (Sadly for me, it's the spoilers I've already seen, but whatever it's not like need to know everything right now or anything  )

 

Blacklisting is a must at this point, on tumblr. My dash is hilarious to see right now, half of it is just warnings for posts hidden for blacklisted tags.

[Tarlonniel]

Spoilers floating around, huh? No problem. I can resist. It's only a few days until...

 

*fails her saving throw*

 

MUST SEE SPOILERS

 

*sees spoilers*

 

OH MAKER WHY ISN'T IT TUESDAY YET

 

save me Cullen...

 

[Vanalia]

That DLC is supposed to be released on September 8th, right? so why are there already spoilers?

 

And what is that patch we can already download? for PS4 as well? last time I check, there was no patch to download

 

- Ariella: that red uniform suits him, I think! everything suits Cullen

 

I wonder if we will see old characters cameos in that DLC (there will be Teagan?), because I've seen none of them (because of my previous game choices and I sided with Templars), so no Alistair, no Anora, and most of all, no Loghain. (I'm the only one to blame for that one, I took the playthrough were I killed him, my Cousland queen still is my "official" main playthrough.)

I have another one but I don't want to mix everything in my Dragon age keep until I play to that DLC, I always fear that something goes wrong.

[jtav]

Could someone direct me to these spoilers? I've only seen two, and I've never met a spoiler I didn't like.

[sagefic]

So hi, popping in to say first, omg no spoilers please I can't handle this ARRGH! tuesday why aren't you here!?

 

ahem.

 

and! on a sort-of-related to cullen note, I wanted to share a longish blog post I did because it *kinda?* relates to cullen? 

 

I was reading through the World of Thedas and began to go, wait, wha? and did some more research and began to realize that the Inquisition was supposed to be formed almost 20 years ago but it wasn't. soo..yeah. and that cullen was undoubtedly caught up in the insane that is kirkwall because of seeker evilness (which i think we already knew, but it's related).

 

but anyhow, if you wanted to read that, shameless self-promotion and all: The Inquistion is 20 years late.

[Potato Cat]

Could someone direct me to these spoilers? I've only seen two, and I've never met a spoiler I didn't like.

The few spoilers I've seen are all on reddit. I want more, and I know there's more, but no one seems to be interested enough to show them.

[Potato Cat]

That DLC is supposed to be released on September 8th, right? so why are there already spoilers?
 
And what is that patch we can already download? for PS4 as well? last time I check, there was no patch to download
 
- Ariella: that red uniform suits him, I think! everything suits Cullen
 
I wonder if we will see old characters cameos in that DLC (there will be Teagan?), because I've seen none of them (because of my previous game choices and I sided with Templars), so no Alistair, no Anora, and most of all, no Loghain. (I'm the only one to blame for that one, I took the playthrough were I killed him, my Cousland queen still is my "official" main playthrough.)
I have another one but I don't want to mix everything in my Dragon age keep until I play to that DLC, I always fear that something goes wrong.

There is a patch, which includes the new wardrobe and golden nug. And since that patch is gearing the game up for Trespasser, people are able to datamine it for things that are included in the DLC. I can't really go into specifics because spoilers.

[Hellion Rex]

Jesus, it took 2 goddamn hours to download that freakin patch.

[Vanalia]

There is a patch, which includes the new wardrobe and golden nug. And since that patch is gearing the game up for Trespasser, people are able to datamine it for things that are included in the DLC. I can't really go into specifics because spoilers.

Thanks for the explanation, I hope the patch is ready as well for PS4, I have to check again ^^

[Hellion Rex]

Me, hiding from all spoilers.