Found romanced one.
SpoilerI think it's unnecessarily cruel :/
Damn. Thanks for finding this. That almost strikes me as someone taking it out on players who choose something "bad" for an NPC the devs liked, even though there aren't supposed to be absolute "right" or "wrong" choices. I can see that being a particular shock to someone who was new to the game and didn't really know much about the qunari from the prior games...
Granted I can't see how bad it truly is but... I'm sort of torn about the writers being sort of cruel about it. On the one hand I definitely agree they shouldn't because cruelty is always bad, but on the other I sort of understand the impulse. I mean you know they develop attachments to these characters just like we do, and the put all these options in so we can have some agency but it would be silly to think they don't also have feelings about what the right choice is in the context of the setting. So I get the impulse on their part.
Sorry, but no, Weekes and Mike do not get a pat in the head for treating their customers as poorly as they have over this just because they have ~feelings~ about the characters too. There has to be a minimum of professional decorum here - they can judge players who got this ending in their heads, they can gripe about it to each other in private, they can even make a secret wall of shame of fan complains to point and laugh at in the privacy of their offices if they want to, but the attitude has to go when it comes to dealing with the public. I did not invest over a hundred dollars into this game to be publically mocked and taunted by the developers for taking a choice that they put in the game to begin with.
Like I said, it's not about the fact that we got bad consequences for a poor choice. That is a good thing, and needs to happen a lot more often in these games. I made an oopsie and now I pay for it? Great. That's good storytelling. The problem is that you can't treat customers like this - with snippy, btchy replies, making fun of players who made the wrong choice, saying you deserve it for playing it wrong, etc. There is no excuse for this. If you don't have the emotional maturity as a writer to step back and let your writing do the talking instead of treating your audience like crap for experimenting with the choices you put there yourself, then either don't allow these choices in the first place or, preferably, mature as a writer and learn to deal with consequences too. Don't treat your characters like precious babies who shouldn't be hurt, and certainly don't blame the audience for hurting them with weapons you put in their hands. That's the most important lesson you can learn in writing: learn to kill your darlings. In RPG writing? Also don't blame your players for killing your darlings when you gave them that option to begin with.
I don't care how Weekes really feeeeeeeeels about Bull - if he can't handle tragic outcomes for his characters without coming to punches with the audience of his work, then he either shouldn't write tragic outcomes at all, or he should to learn to deal with it without insulting his audience. His ~feelings~ are no excuse.
Sorry, but no, Weekes and Mike do not get a pat in the head for treating their customers as poorly as they have over this just because they have ~feelings~ about the characters too. There has to be a minimum of professional decorum here - they can judge players who got this ending in their heads, they can gripe about it to each other in private, they can even make a secret wall of shame of fan complains to point and laugh at in the privacy of their offices if they want to, but the attitude has to go when it comes to dealing with the public. I did not invest over a hundred dollars into this game to be publically mocked and taunted by the developers for taking a choice that they put in the game to begin with.
Like I've said a few times... I'm currently at work and can't just how bad the romanced slide is. So my thoughts on it currently are limited to a more general thoughtline than being able to be specific in this case.
Are spoilers not tagged anymore, then?
Re: Iron Bull
I think the betrayal makes perfect sense. The problem I'm having is I read this thing on Tumblr about how Iron Bull is a lying liar who lies and now, even though I'd never sacrifice the chargers and he will never actually betray me, I view his character totally differently now. My heart melts when Vidasalla asks him to fight me and he goes "Not a chance." and I was like
Bull. But after reading this thing on Tumblr where they point out basically every single thing he says is a lie, I can't even. Tumblr ruined him for me because they explained his betrayal so well. I wish I remembered where I saw it, it was linked in the Solas thread awhile back.
Bull: Hi, I'm Iron Bull
Me: LIES
Yea we all voted to not do spoilers at this point
And I think I actually know what post you are referring to (Mike Laidlaw tweeted a link to it). If it is, it's a great post that explains a lot about Bull when you first meet-up with him and a specifically Qun aligned Bull. I personally believe the whole Tal-Vashoth thing changes him a lot. His interactions with a few companions (especially Solas) really shows that well. But I think people have a tendency to overlook the changes.
Basically Qun Bull is as different from Tal-Vashoth Bull as Lyrium Cullen is to Lyrium free Cullen.
Ick... high school SAT flashback ><
Is it this one?
Like I've said a few times... I'm currently at work and can't just how bad the romanced slide is. So my thoughts on it currently are limited to a more general thoughtline than being able to be specific in this case.
I know, I'm not even talking about the epilogue slide - I'm talking about how they've acted towards fans on social media after people started coming to them with questions. My opinion on the epilogue slide is the same I've already mentioned before - it's petty, unnecessarily cruel, the worst and most disrespectful BW has ever treated shippers in any of their games; but even that I can kind of more or less accept as writing. Vindictive and spiteful writing, but writing still. Their actions as developers towards the players is what's unnaceptable.
Sorry, but no, Weekes and Mike do not get a pat in the head for treating their customers as poorly as they have over this just because they have ~feelings~ about the characters too. There has to be a minimum of professional decorum here - they can judge players who got this ending in their heads, they can gripe about it to each other in private, they can even make a secret wall of shame of fan complains to point and laugh at in the privacy of their offices if they want to, but the attitude has to go when it comes to dealing with the public. I did not invest over a hundred dollars into this game to be publically mocked and taunted by the developers for taking a choice that they put in the game to begin with.
Like I said, it's not about the fact that we got bad consequences for a poor choice. That is a good thing, and needs to happen a lot more often in these games. I made an oopsie and now I pay for it? Great. That's good storytelling. The problem is that you can't treat customers like this - with snippy, btchy replies, making fun of players who made the wrong choice, saying you deserve it for playing it wrong, etc. There is no excuse for this. If you don't have the emotional maturity as a writer to step back and let your writing do the talking instead of treating your audience like crap for experimenting with the choices you put there yourself, then either don't allow these choices in the first place or, preferably, mature as a writer and learn to deal with consequences too. Don't treat your characters like precious babies who shouldn't be hurt, and certainly don't blame the audience for hurting them with weapons you put in their hands. That's the most important lesson you can learn in writing: learn to kill your darlings. In RPG writing? Also don't blame your players for killing your darlings when you gave them that option to begin with.
I don't care how Weekes really feeeeeeeeels about Bull - if he can't handle tragic outcomes for his characters without coming to punches with the audience of his work, then he either shouldn't write tragic outcomes at all, or he should to learn to deal with it without insulting his audience. His ~feelings~ are no excuse.
Wait, what? How are the writers making fun of or belittling the players again? Because they said if you romanced a Qun Loyal Spy who you found out is a Qun Loyal Spy, you deserved what you got?
I'd like specifics because I think you could find no better, more patient, or forthcoming devs than the ones we have.
I think they wrote him pretty realistically, myself. And personally, I think that it plays out very realistically. I'm not sure what more someone could have expected. If you pressed Bull into sacrificing his men for the good of the inquisition he's certainly not going to show you the same courtesy.
I think the betrayal makes perfect sense. The problem I'm having is I read this thing on Tumblr about how Iron Bull is a lying liar who lies and now, even though I'd never sacrifice the chargers and he will never actually betray me, I view his character totally differently now. My heart melts when Vidasalla asks him to fight me and he goes "Not a chance." and I was like
I think the point of that post is kind of the opposite, though. Bull is a spy, and he openly uses that get close to you, but the point is that when you encourage him to leave the qun, "Bull" is the true person he's always been with you. That's the real him, the friend you have is a real one. It's when you encourage him to prioritize the qun over everything else that he falls back into Hissrad mode, and through that path, everything he tells you was a lie. But that's not the path you took - since he didn't betray you, he was never lying to you; you had the real him beside you all along.
Bull in that regard is like Solas or Blackwall - they're all three lying to you, but at the same time letting their guards down and showing their true selves. You don't know Blackwall's real past but if you befriend him you do learn what kind of person he is now. You don't know who Solas really is or what he's really doing but if you befriend him you can get him to show very real sides of himself. And Bull's the same; you don't know who he really is when you meet him, but if you help him free himself from the qun he becomes the "real" Bull with you, and that guy's not a liar anymore - if not, he kills the "real" part of himself to become again that role of professional liar that he was trying to reject.
Same here. My Descent tiles won't unlock either. Woooo buggy Keep is buggy.
Yeah the Descent and Trespasser wont unlock for any of my characters. I guess ill just have to wait until they decide to show spoilers for the DLC's and ill make the decisions then
I think they wrote him pretty realistically, myself. And personally, I think that it plays out very realistically. I'm not sure what more someone could have expected. If you pressed Bull into sacrificing his men for the good of the inquisition he's certainly not going to show you the same courtesy.
I've said in like three or five posts in the thread now that I am not questioning the writing of Bull or the existence of bad consequences to poor choices; that I even agree with them and think more questionable actions should have matching consequences in this series. Literally what I am criticizing is how Mike Laidlaw and Patrick Weekes treated people on social media in a very petty and unprofessional manner over this.
My character doing things and suffering consequences = good.
Developers acting snippy with players = bad.
I've said in like three or five posts in the thread now that I am not questioning the writing of Bull or the existence of bad consequences to poor choices; that I even agree with them and think more questionable actions should have matching consequences in this series. Literally what I am criticizing is how Mike Laidlaw and Patrick Weekes treated people on social media in a very petty and unprofessional manner over this.
My character doing things and suffering consequences = good.
Developers acting snippy with players = bad.
Yes, I saw that. I also asked for specific examples so I can understand what you mean.
I find that (besides Gaider), the writers and developers are all very straight forward, honest, and as interactive as they can be. I've never seen them be outright rude, belittling, or petty behavior. I've seen plenty of people do those things to them, though. I think we have a great bunch of devs and although I'm sure they have their moments where they get snippy with people who consistantly gripe at them, I'm positive none of them would ever be outright rude to a fan on purpose nor treat someone's decisions or concern as a joke.
Besides Gaider.
I must be missing something here.
I don't see how the developers are...were acting snippy with players for their choices; especially Iron Bull.
Yes, I saw that. I also asked for specific examples so I can understand what you mean.
You can go back through both their twitters if you want, I've no interest in hunting down things I've already found distasteful to read once, leave alone for the encore.
Anyway this has derailed far enough from the thread's topic from my one post that started it, and I feel like I'm just making the same post over and over in different wording at this point, and it's getting tiresome. I've made my point about the difference between consistent in-game consequences and unprofessional behavior with the audience, others have linked to the romanced epilogue slides I mentioned as being unnecessarily cruel, so I think all I personally had to say about this has been exhausted. If we must continue discussing this let's please move it over to PM, otherwise that was the tl;dr of it all.
You can go back through both their twitters if you want, I've no interest in hunting down things I've already found distasteful to read once, leave alone for the encore.
Anyway this has derailed far enough from the thread's topic from my one post that started it, and I feel like I'm just making the same post over and over in different wording at this point, and it's getting tiresome. I've made my point about the difference between consistent in-game consequences and unprofessional behavior with the audience, others have linked to the romanced epilogue slides I mentioned as being unnecessarily cruel, so I think all I personally had to say about this has been exhausted. If we must continue discussing this let's please move it over to PM, otherwise that was the tl;dr of it all.
As you say.
At least your boyfriend wasn't isn't trying to destroy the world and everyone in it. Sigh.
As you say.
At least your boyfriend
wasn'tisn't trying to destroy the world and everyone in it. Sigh.
*cough*cough* at least he'll look good doing it *cough*cough*
What's weird is I had an optional formal outfit selected via the wardrobe, but with Trespasser I ended up with the Nutcracker Suite the entire time.
Me, too! I changed it to the Midnight one after starting Trespasser, but then my Inquisitor just felt way out of place when the other advisors were wearing those nutcracker suits. So, I just changed it back lol 
<< I actually liked that she had a different coloured one. It would be great though if she didn't default to the nutcracker in the final scene 
Me, too! I changed it to the Midnight one after starting Trespasser, but then my Inquisitor just felt way out of place when the other advisors were wearing those nutcracker suits. So, I just changed it back lol
Did the same. Hopefully the MOD fix will be...well fixed.
Furthermore it sucked at the start of the wedding, text popped up saying the crap you received. Rather tacky when your recording. Too bad there was not an option in the game settings to turn that off.
I perfectly understand that, feeling protective over your characters and such. P Weekes was always pretty clear that allying with the Qun was not the best move when it comes to IB as a character. Whether it was a good move when it comes to inquisition is another matter. They put it there, so it makes sense that people will roleplay it. I can perfectly understand that Qunari Bull is a different person to T-V Bull and I'm okay with betrayal. I still feel that the romance slides sting too much (especially the second one).
They are under the cut
Spoiler
Ok, yea... that's pretty directly a jab at the player which sucks >< 
Furthermore it sucked at the start of the wedding, text popped up saying the crap you received. Rather tacky when your recording. Too bad there was not an option in the game settings to turn that off.
OMG that annoyed the crap out of me as well! I hope in the next game they make it so that stuff doesn't pop up in cut scenes ><
I always toggled the UI off via cinematic tools when I knew something was going to pop up when I was recording.
Saw how you replied via the subscription email, riverbanks. Again, I'm sorry. Seeing as how it wasn't conducive to furthering the discussion in a positive way, there's no point in keeping it on here.
Modifié par skylark, 24 septembre 2015 - 05:36 .
[edit: you know what, nevermind, I don't have the energy for this anymore. carry on.]
Modifié par riverbanks, 24 septembre 2015 - 04:11 .
Any constructive thoughts as to what they could have done differently? (Besides 'anything.') This goes for Cullen's unromanced lyrium ending as well. Still keeping the bad end and all though.
[After the cruel Orlais slide(s)] "But the inquisitor's friends knew this to have not been the case, and that the bond between the two lovers had been true."
What's Cullen's lyrium slide? Is it bad? :-s
Yeah Cullen's lyrium slide broke my heart.
He turns into a begger and Harding either mercy killed him or gave him a few coins. I can't pick that choice nope.
As for Bull...yeah Qun!Bull ending was harsh but fair imo. *shrugs* I accidentally got the (non romance) version on my Solasmancer forgot to do his quest >_> won't let that happen again. But that's what happens when you are on the losing end of divided loyalties.That said it's a little less knife twisting than the romance version. I mean damn.
Also the necklace on the floor in skewered bull pic is the necklace of the kadan just for that extra knife twist. So much noooope never letting chargers die. Bull's happier, Quizzy's happier and if I really need a tier 3 staff scheme there's the dark emporium.
[After the cruel Orlais slide(s)] "But the inquisitor's friends knew this to have not been the case, and that the bond between the two lovers had been true."
:
Sure. Anyone within the Inquisition would know the truth. Anyone outside The Inquisition; especially Orlais would love to rip the organization to shreds. These are people who play The Game. Anything they can use to their advantage they'll use it.
Was it cruel? Depends. Using it as a tool to rub salt in a wound from the developers? No. From a story perspective. Yes. Sad to see Orlais poke fun of it.
Maybe sacrificing The Chargers was the right choice for your character but don't expect such a sacrifice to give you a "Tra'la through the daises ending with Bull."
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