138846 réponses à ce sujet

[BevH]

I can't remember where I heard/read it, but templars can marry. There are conditions, though. The non-templar spouse has to be able to support himself/herself. Again, I don't remember where I saw it.

[thats1evildude]

I wouldn't hold to things in DAO as absolute gospel, as it's very prone to Early Installment Weirdness. There's a lot of goofy things that don't make much sense, like the spirit wolves in the Magi origin or that dumb Summoning Sciences quest or Alistair commenting on how there aren't many women in the Grey Wardens.

[Ariella]

I wouldn't hold to things in DAO as absolute gospel, as it's very prone to Early Installment Weirdness. There's a lot of goofy things that don't make much sense, like the spirit wolves in the Magi origin or that dumb Summoning Sciences quest or Alistair commenting on how there aren't many women in the Grey Wardens.

I don't remember the spirit wolves, but I could see Alistair's comment about the Wardens reflecting his inexperience, and the fact the Wardens of Ferelden aren't exactly numerous. Even in Ferelden, where women can and do fight, I'm thinking that Duncan probably was going to find more men than women who fit the bill. Of course, I may be full of crap.

[R2s Muse]

I can't remember where I heard/read it, but templars can marry. There are conditions, though. The non-templar spouse has to be able to support himself/herself. Again, I don't remember where I saw it.

Like I said earlier, it was a clarification from DG for DA2 http://forum.bioware...-2#entry3697948

It was when they had to explain the fact that Aveline was married to a templar.

[R2s Muse]

I wouldn't hold to things in DAO as absolute gospel, as it's very prone to Early Installment Weirdness. There's a lot of goofy things that don't make much sense, like the spirit wolves in the Magi origin or that dumb Summoning Sciences quest or Alistair commenting on how there aren't many women in the Grey Wardens.

Mmm Alistair's comment isn't isolated, tho. I think it's less early installment weirdness as modern sexism continuing to manifest in their ostensibly non-sexist world. Leading to later dev protestations that their world was always sexist. /facepalm

[BevH]

Like I said earlier, it was a clarification from DG for DA2 http://forum.bioware...-2#entry3697948

It was when they had to explain the fact that Aveline was married to a templar.

Thanks! I didn't want to attribute it to DG without being able to cite where I saw it.

[BevH]

Mmm Alistair's comment isn't isolated, tho. I think it's less early installment weirdness as modern sexism continuing to manifest in their ostensibly non-sexist world. Leading to later dev protestations that their world was always sexist. /facepalm

Alistair's quote is, "There aren't many women in the wardens. I wonder why that is?" Well, we find out what the reason is in the Deep Roads. Personally, I don't view that as sexist... but that's probably just me. *shrugs*

[Xhyn]

Delurking to say that I really enjoy reading the exchanges going on between you all on the last few pages. Thanks!

 

I'm just adding a little thing concerning Meredith and the Blooming Rose. She actually did something about the templars that where "regulars" there. There is an hilarious entry in "The World of Thedas vol.2" narrated by Jethann about it. I'm just leaving the photo I took of the passage (page 194) here, so you can all read it :

[Ariella]

Delurking to say that I really enjoy reading the exchanges going on between you all on the last few pages. Thanks!
 
I'm just adding a little thing concerning Meredith and the Blooming Rose. She actually did something about the templars that where "regulars" there. There is an hilarious entry in "The World of Thedas vol.2" narrated by Jethann about it.

And suddenly Varric falls out of his chair.

I will write actual response soon, but my connection needs to stablize, as does my brain.

To prove how gone said brain is:

Cullen tending an infant. A squally, red faced, messy, stinky infant. Either his or a sib's, your choice.

I'm postive he'd know what to do, but the look on his face is what is priceless. And yes, this assumes a first time.

[Ghost Gal]

I wouldn't hold to things in DAO as absolute gospel, as it's very prone to Early Installment Weirdness. There's a lot of goofy things that don't make much sense, like the spirit wolves in the Magi origin or that dumb Summoning Sciences quest or Alistair commenting on how there aren't many women in the Grey Wardens.

 

I don't know about "early installment weirdness" so much that they might have just changed their minds about gender segregation and representation between the first game and second.

 

In DAO it seemed pretty clear that Ferelden/Thedas gender roles were similar to real life modern era. While more progressive than the actual medieval ages, DAO men still tended to have more power and presence in martial and professional fields. In DAO while women can serve in the army, male soldiers still largely outnumber them (probably because of social pressure to marry and look after the kids). While both men and women can both join the priesthood, women are probably seen as better healers than fighters--hence Andrastian female priests verses male Templars. While men and women can both be nobles, men are seen as the leaders of the patrilinial line and better soldiers, while women are more socially encouraged to learn "the gentler arts" to "land a husband," so she can raise his children and run the castle whenever he's off fighting. (*cough*ELINORCOUSLAND*cough*)

 

By DA2 it seems like BioWare said, "You know what? Nah, let's forget real-life sexism. Let's just make complete gender equality in all fields in all countries in this game. Equal numbers and equal levels of respect for men and women in every field; soldiers, Templars, craftsmen, shopkeepers, spies, etc."

 

On the one hand, I really enjoy a fantasy setting where I don't have to deal with any misogynistic sh*t like I have to in real life. (It's a relief in a lot of ways.) On the other hand, the medieval era was very martially inclined for a reason. I also find it a little off that they got rid of only the sexism but kept the extreme racism against non-humans (which have shades of European vs. minority and colonized cultures) and mages (which has shades of real-life medieval terror against "witches" and the supernatural) and even xenophobia (every country seems to think every country but them is weird and/or uncivilized). Like, what? Discriminating against and dehumanizing people because of pointed ears or magic or a different nationality is fine, but discriminating against them for different reproductive abilities and/or physical body builds (since women are on average 20% smaller and curvier than men)? Now that's just silly.

 

Personally, in DAO I just thought that female Chantry members became priests (Revered Mothers, Sisters, etc), while male Chantry members became Templars and the occasional lay brothers (like Brother Genitivi). I also assumed that Templars and priests couldn't marry for the same reason real-life Medieval Catholic priests and nuns didn't marry: to cut the cost of the church paying to support a family religious ideology saying one is more holy/pure/devoted when one is chaste (as Sebastian demonstrates in DA2). Now in DAI they throw both accounts out the window, so I'm like, "... Okay. Way to ruin a simple system with unnecessary complications."

 

I also assumed Alistair's comment "there have never been many women Wardens" was tied to the Warden's revelation in the Deep Roads that women who're captured by darkspawn are made into Broodmothers. Since Grey Wardens fight darkspawn their whole lives are expected to go into the Deep Roads to die killing as many darkspawn as possible, that would be really cruel and risky to a female Warden (plus social sexism), which would make sense that they don't have that many women. Then DAI came along and threw that out the window, so I'm like, "... Okay. Never mind then."

 

So... okay then. What's continuity when we can rewrite a fantasy world that's rife with prejudice, segregation, and oppression to still have all that except for any kind of perceived sexism?

[Tishina]

I don't remember the spirit wolves, but I could see Alistair's comment about the Wardens reflecting his inexperience, and the fact the Wardens of Ferelden aren't exactly numerous. Even in Ferelden, where women can and do fight, I'm thinking that Duncan probably was going to find more men than women who fit the bill. Of course, I may be full of crap.

Well, when a blight isn't going on, there's less pushback when you recruit criminals, especially single men, and recruiting mothers would be particularly problematic, which means a much more limited pool of potential female recruits over about 20. Duncan had to tread lightly in Ferelden. There doesn't seem to be any lack of female wardens elsewhere.

 

Mmm Alistair's comment isn't isolated, tho. I think it's less early installment weirdness as modern sexism continuing to manifest in their ostensibly non-sexist world. Leading to later dev protestations that their world was always sexist. /facepalm

I thought DG's comment was that there had always been sexist individuals in Thedas, not that the general culture was? Or did I get a misquote of what he said or did someone else add that?

 

Delurking to say that I really enjoy reading the exchanges going on between you all on the last few pages. Thanks!

 

I'm just adding a little thing concerning Meredith and the Blooming Rose. She actually did something about the templars that where "regulars" there. There is an hilarious entry in "The World of Thedas vol.2" narrated by Jethann about it. I'm just leaving the photo I took of the passage (page 194) here, so you can all read it :

*snort!* I love this!

 

I just want to say that, even though I don't have anything smart to add to this discussion, I'm enjoying it immensely 

Thank you!

Glad to entertain! And jump in, even if you just have questions about why someone came to a conclusion or an alternate interpretation...

[Tishina]

In DAO while women can serve in the army, male soldiers still largely outnumber them (probably because of social pressure to marry and look after the kids). While both men and women can both join the priesthood, women are probably seen as better healers than fighters--hence Andrastian female priests verses male Templars. While men and women can both be nobles, men are seen as the leaders of the patrilinial line and better soldiers, while women are more socially encouraged to learn "the gentler arts" to "land a husband," so she can raise his children and run the castle whenever he's off fighting. (*cough*ELINORCOUSLAND*cough*)
 

I'd have to politely disagree. You're taking one or two remarks and generalizing to the entire culture from them. There's no particular lack of women at Ostagar, and Loghain's guards at the Landsmeet are women. Only the Templars were visibly lacking in women. And there's nothing in DAO supporting what I bolded that I can recall. If you read all of the codexes, there are a number of ruling female nobles. In at least one rumor, we find out a ruling female noble's husband is killed (note that he didn't become the ruling noble by marrying her) and we had specific examples in game of women inheriting the family title over brothers (the Arlessa whose brother we find in Arl Howe's dungeon, and a female Cousland will have it mentioned that rumor has her possibly inheriting the Teyrnir over her older brother. So even primogeniture isn't clearly in place. There are several ruling female nobles at the Landsmeet. In armor. Elinor Cousland's also admits she was quite the warrior in her own day and mostly seems to be speaking from the perspective of worrying that her daughter will run off and get killed before having children. Cousland is asked to stay behind whether male or female because of her fears. None of the other origins suggest gender is an issue (the CE one is particularly egalitarian.) Frankly, I'd have noped out of DAO and never paid attention to the DA games again if there had been a cultural, rather than individual, problem with gender (the qunari excepted.) The fact that the priesthood is headed by women with a female religious figure and there are so many visible female rulers, leaders, and combatants suggested the opposite of a cultural issue with gender to me.

 

By the way, Andrastrian priests are healers? Healers among the priesthood and laiety, sure, but as a general thing and limited to the female priests? Brothers aren't healers? Do we know that? (I don't even recall any particular connection between priests and treating the injured until DAI; Wynne and the mages were at Ostagar as the healers, weren't they?)

[thats1evildude]

I think there are fewer women fighters because, even with no obstacles to military service, fewer women want to be fighters than men. That's not an unfair generalization, is it? I'm not saying women are worse fighters; I'm saying that more men like fighting than women.

[CuriousArtemis]

Dangerous topic...

 

I thought DG's comment was that there had always been sexist individuals in Thedas, not that the general culture was? Or did I get a misquote of what he said or did someone else add that?

 

It doesn't make sense for an individual to be sexist (or racist or homophobic or [insert -ism] if the culture isn't or wasn't at one time advocating and/or supporting that viewpoint. That's the whole nature of patriarchy.

 

I think there are fewer women fighters because, even with no obstacles to military service, fewer women want to be fighters than men. That's not an unfair generalization, is it? I'm not saying women are worse fighters; I'm saying that more men like fighting than women.

 

I don't know about unfair but you have to acknowledge that if fewer women enter into military service it is most likely down to cultural reasons, not biological.

[berelinde]

I think there are fewer women fighters because, even with no obstacles to military service, fewer women want to be fighters than men. That's not an unfair generalization, is it? I'm not saying women are worse fighters; I'm saying that more men like fighting than women.

I don't know how big a role desire plays compared to expectation and the perceived value of their role. It might be more accurate to say that women have been raised to believe that their contribution to the family is more valuable than the protection they would provide in the military. Men are raised to believe that the protection they provide is more valued than any potential nurturing they could provide, so they join the army.

[CuriousArtemis]

I don't know how big a role desire plays compared to expectation and the perceived value of their role. It might be more accurate to say that women have been raised to believe that their contribution to the family is more valuable than the protection they would provide in the military. Men are raised to believe that the protection they provide is more valued than any potential nurturing they could provide, so they join the army.

 

Yep nicely put, better than I could say it

[R2s Muse]

I thought DG's comment was that there had always been sexist individuals in Thedas, not that the general culture was? Or did I get a misquote of what he said or did someone else add that?

No, his comments were very specifically about the whole world, wondering why the fans would ever have expected it to have gender equality. Forgetting, apparently, the opening screen of chargen that told us very specifically that men and women can be found equally in all classes. Then again, he also wrote a whole paragraph in The Stolen Throne about how odd Rowan Guerrin is for being a woman and a knight. He probably also wrote Alistair's Hey Sweetheart moment.

Dangerous topic...

Indeed.

[R2s Muse]

Alistair's quote is, "There aren't many women in the wardens. I wonder why that is?" Well, we find out what the reason is in the Deep Roads. Personally, I don't view that as sexist... but that's probably just me. *shrugs*

Thing is... DG has confirmed that no one knew the source of the broodmothers prior to DA:O. So that wouldn't be a factor in anyone's recruitment into the wardens.

[CuriousArtemis]

Thing is... DG has confirmed that no one knew the source of the broodmothers prior to DA:O. So that wouldn't be a factor in anyone's recruitment into the wardens.

 

>.< This whole conversation reminds me of why I wasn't all that sad when he announced he was leaving the franchise. As great a writer as he is, especially at dialogue (and he IS great), and as progressive as he is, he's still old-fashioned in many ways...

[Tishina]

No, his comments were very specifically about the whole world, wondering why the fans would ever have expected it to have gender equality. Forgetting, apparently, the opening screen of chargen that told us very specifically that men and women can be found equally in all classes. Then again, he also wrote a whole paragraph in The Stolen Throne about how odd Rowan Guerrin is for being a woman and a knight. He probably also wrote Alistair's Hey Sweetheart moment.

Indeed.

OK, apparently I only ever saw a selected quote. Very, very disappointing. He's an excellent writer, but I can do without that in my games, especially since DAO does, as you say, give a very clear impression of relative gender equality right at the opening. Probably explains a lot about my complaints about romances, sigh.

[Cantina]

Dunno if this has been posted, but since I played Trespasser once before...half asleep. I decided to run it again - being more awake.

 

Was reading Sera's journal and saw this:

 

 

 

 

I just hope no one recently polished whichever desk they choose to use. Otherwise my Quizzy will slide all the way to the Dales.

[thats1evildude]

Well, strictly speaking, it doesn't have gender equality. In the south, men are prevented from rising higher than the rank of "Brother" in the Chantry. In the north, women aren't allowerd to become the Divine. And in qunari-held territories, certain professions are exclusive to either gender.

[berelinde]

>.< This whole conversation reminds me of why I wasn't all that sad when he announced he was leaving the franchise. As great a writer as he is, especially at dialogue (and he IS great), and as progressive as he is, he's still old-fashioned in many ways...

No matter now much we strive against inequality, no matter how thoroughly we educate ourselves, no matter how diligently we police our thoughts and (attempt to) purge our speech of bias, we remain the products of our upbringing. Our past is part of our language, our culture, even the words we use every day. Dragon Age is one of the most progressive games going, but purging it of every bit of sexist language or ideology would be impossible. It's built into our culture.

 

Look at the gender bias of everyday words. A man who behaves unethically toward others is described as a b******, a word that deprives him of his legitimacy within society. A woman who behaves unethically toward others is described as a b****, a word that deprives her of her very humanity. A person born outside legal matrimony is still a person, but a female dog is not. Gender expectations are baked into the language we use, and we don't even give it a second thought.

 

The good news is that this situation improves with every generation. DG (and R2, and BevH, and me, and maybe you, and a whole bunch of other people here) remember when women were barred from certain professions, by custom if not by law. That's been changing steadily over the years, but overcoming that expectation is still something that requires a decision on our part; it isn't automatic. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I know that I'm guilty of occasional lapses, even though I despise gender bias. My niece and nephew and other members of their generation would have been exposed to their parents' bias tangentially, but they were born into a world where change was a bit further along. They won't have personal memories of a time when "gendered professions" were a(s much of a) thing. They'll teach that expectation of equality to their children. As long as we keep at it.

 

Anyway, that got rambly. I'll shut up now.

[R2s Muse]

No matter now much we strive against inequality, no matter how thoroughly we educate ourselves, no matter how diligently we police our thoughts and (attempt to) purge our speech of bias, we remain the products of our upbringing. Our past is part of our language, our culture, even the words we use every day. Dragon Age is one of the most progressive games going, but purging it of every bit of sexist language or ideology would be impossible. It's built into our culture.

<respectful snip>

Yeah, I also think it's just a case of unconscious bias, or rather unexamined bias, that we all have internalized and comes out when we least expect it. Any world building will be subject to your own cultural mores sneaking in when you least suspect it. Historically, these DnD, sword and sorcerer-type fantasy worlds have a healthy dose of everyday sexism, so the fact that DA has so little is still an accomplishment. I just find it curious that the creators' rhetoric around it wouldn't embrace their attempt. 

[Ariella]

In a desperate attempt to draw back from political stuff that I'm so not ready to deal with until next summer....
 

This is the sort of friendly wrestling with interpretations I love, so I'm glad you're enjoying it too.

Oh, definitely, especially since fall is setting in. SADD sucks. Pushing my brain helps a lot.
 

Yes, it's unclear how they get accepted; Alistair mentions both noble and commoner children, but he was the only one who wasn't quite either, so if the nobles send their illegitimate children to the Chantry, they're ones who were raised solely by their commoner parent. I'm a little fuzzy on it, but I got the impression maybe Cullen's barrier was his parents' consent?
 
Good point on the author of that codex!

I have to admit I got the a lot noble 3rd or 4th child and bastard children as much from my discussions with my husband about Chantry vis a vi RCC. To quote: "It (The Church) was a great way for a father with a son he couldn't acknowledge to still do right by"
 

True, which to me makes it weirder to me that they defaulted to that. I'm not aware of any Protestant denominations that require celibacy, and it isn't common in the other religions I'm familiar with (I could be missing something obvious, of course.)

Judaism doesn't either. We've got a lot of funky rituals for the priest caste. If you belong to the kohanim there are a lot of restrictions on who you can marry and such but that's a small segment. Run into any Jewish person named Kohen or some variation there of, and they're most likely of the caste.

That being said rabbis aren't restricted in any type of way. I think that may be the same for Islam but I can't remember.
 
But yes, the implication seems to be Cullen's parents, though I get the sense it's more of worry for their son than any need for him at home. Though I may be reading into it. I just wish we knew more about them. I'd seen somewhere they died during the Blight but haven't been able to confirm.

Maybe I'll ask for WoT 1&2 for my birthday.
 

I haven't gotten that far in the ME series, too funny!

My husband's favorite line of the series.

 

I think that minimal level of organization for the Templars makes sense, actually. Most of the time, they're in relatively small detachments, the size of a company or half company, no more than 40 or 50 in any one place, I think? So 4 to 5 officers at most (they don't seem to have an equivalent to the enlisted or NCOs.) They probably had more in Val Royeaux of course with the organizational command and administrative core above the local commanders was, and the Gallows might have had more, but the situation was a bit different there with both a very large Circle plus the Cathedral in Kirkwall? The organizational structure of medieval armies was not usually as carefully defined as modern ones. Smaller armies, less specialization, more frequently made up of semi-independent forces working together (think all the  nobles' forces at Ostagar with the regular Fereldan army.)

True. I think Kirkwall was as big as it was because each of the Free March states had their own Circle, even somewhere as small, relatively, as Ostwick so. I'm attributing this potentially to the fierce independent Marcher streak. They want their "own" Templars rather than have it be in a centralized place thus prestige to one city or another.

A lot of time I think the Templars would be working in even smaller size, what we'd call a squad or a fire team since marching through the woods looking for apostates et al with 50 men sounds both like overkill and a logistics nightmare. But I may be wrong.

You do make a good point about the organization. It makes me wonder if Tevinter in being a kind of Romanesque society has a military based around those lines.
 

The Seekers fit in rather oddly in all of it, and we're not given a lot of info either, other than the fact they are corrupted and essentially have been for quite a while. Of course, we're left at the end of everything with the implication that Cass is rebuilding the Seekers (and surviving Templars?) into something new, hopefully something that's more inclusive like they were originally and in a way that will be harder to erase the inclusion on non-humans and mages. And Cullen offers Templars an exit they didn't have before from lyrium addiction. Those two things together suggest some interesting possibilities for the future...

Agreed. If you take those choices of course, which I do. I just got the Viv as Divine ending (thus starting over because I am not having her as Divine, I don't care) and a lot of the Templars who follow Cullen enter into Cassandra's new Order, though I wonder if they still use the Vigil.

I think Cass is going to be death on anyone who tries to close ranks in the new Seekers. As long as there's a good deal of transparency, I think it'll be fine. I feel the same about the Inquisition. As long as they keep their purpose and charter obvious and inclusive, less chance of corruption setting in easily. The spy thing, well, thanks for telling us you're a threat, dear, because now we know which way to look.

I also find myself in weird position of wondering what would happen if Fenris would undergo the Vigil because I'm curious how the lyrium tattoos might play in. But that's the fic writer in me talking. In fact, I find myself wondering how he'd get long with the DAI cast in general (Dorian, Solas and Bull are huge examples).

Dunno if this has been posted, but since I played Trespasser once before...half asleep. I decided to run it again - being more awake.
 
Was reading Sera's journal and saw this:
 
 

 
 
I just hope no one recently polished whichever desk they choose to use. Otherwise my Quizzy will slide all the way to the Dales.

Yet again, I find myself reminded not to read and drink at the same time. That's cute. Who was the new Jenny? Or is that just stuff? I had this image of Dagna joining...

Modifié par Ariella, 28 octobre 2015 - 01:42 .