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[R2s Muse]

(Oh I see)

 

Oh, ouch!! Bookshelves with doors You know I had three boxes full of fantasy/sci-fi paperbacks (printer paper boxes / xerox boxes) and... I donated them to the library. Because they were ugly battered paperbacks. I was about 22. Do you know how often I regret that? So many amazing stories I can never read again because many of them are out of print. Basically every fantasy book I read as a teen. Including the Tanya Huff book we were talking about earlier. I get depressed when I think about it.

oh man, i feel ya. it physically pained me in the end, and I argued to myself that SOME of those books are out of print. so i saved the most dog-eared ones. like that Tanya Huff book so I can still re-read it every couple of years. LOL Like the Blue Sword by Robin McKinley. Luckily, they must all exist somewhere in the interwebs... 

[R2s Muse]

Oddly enough, I may have actually read a few of her books. Not really to my own taste, if I recall. Back in the days when I'd read anything, almost Not that I don't enjoy romances, just I can be a bit picky about the themes nowadays...

LOL small world! Yeah, I haven't read them in many years. And I know my tastes have changed. But I'm still a sucker for pure romance sometimes. So long as it's not about the modern, real world.

[Tishina]

LOL small world! Yeah, I haven't read them in many years. And I know my tastes have changed. But I'm still a sucker for pure romance sometimes. So long as it's not about the modern, real world.

Too true. I do prefer mine not in a modern setting. I kind of prefer fantasy worlds, though, to get away from the way women too often get portrayed in "historical"
romances.

[d4eaming]

Too true. I do prefer mine not in a modern setting. I kind of prefer fantasy worlds, though, to get away from the way women too often get portrayed in "historical"
romances.

 

This always irks me. The one time I read one of my friend's "romance" novels (it was 20 years ago, I don't know the title, just a vague idea of plot), the male lead was a bit of a jerk and the female protagonist just became putty in his hands. It always bugged me. Please, give me strong female leads that don't need to be wooed, who can take command and decide her own life. When I write a female character, I try to give her agency and fire. One of my favorite characters is the first female born after a long, long line of male babies and feels like she has to "live up to" her family's legacy. She's kind and smart, but she's also fierce, and she *will* break a man's nose if he doesn't get the hint that she's not interested. There's just not that many strong women characters for young boys and girls to look up to.

 

It's like some writers think you can't have a woman who's intelligent, attractive, kind, strong, and decisive. A kind woman doesn't need to be a waif who needs a man to protect her, and a strong woman doesn't need to be cold and "manly". There are so many nuances in between that could be taken advantage of. Not just in written fiction, but in games and movies.

 

I prefer to see characters with many traits, and positive ones, so that girls and young women, and lgbt folks, can have role models or heroes in fiction to look up to.

[R2s Muse]

Too true. I do prefer mine not in a modern setting. I kind of prefer fantasy worlds, though, to get away from the way women too often get portrayed in "historical"
romances.

LOL Yeah, this is something I appreciate about Outlander, that at least there's a reason for her anachronistic feminism (i.e., that she's not from that time/culture).  

[R2s Muse]

This always irks me. The one time I read one of my friend's "romance" novels (it was 20 years ago, I don't know the title, just a vague idea of plot), the male lead was a bit of a jerk and the female protagonist just became putty in his hands. It always bugged me. Please, give me strong female leads that don't need to be wooed, who can take command and decide her own life. When I write a female character, I try to give her agency and fire. One of my favorite characters is the first female born after a long, long line of male babies and feels like she has to "live up to" her family's legacy. She's kind and smart, but she's also fierce, and she *will* break a man's nose if he doesn't get the hint that she's not interested. There's just not that many strong women characters for young boys and girls to look up to.

 

It's like some writers think you can't have a woman who's intelligent, attractive, kind, strong, and decisive. A kind woman doesn't need to be a waif who needs a man to protect her, and a strong woman doesn't need to be cold and "manly". There are so many nuances in between that could be taken advantage of. Not just in written fiction, but in games and movies.

 

I prefer to see characters with many traits, and positive ones, so that girls and young women, and lgbt folks, can have role models or heroes in fiction to look up to.

I prefer seeing women written with agency, as well. But I would rather we get to a point where we can write all types of women instead of having to focus on the "strong woman" since there are also weak women, nice women, mean women, needy women, independent women, and some women who are sometimes all of these things. And men as well.  

[Fadburger]

I prefer seeing women written with agency, as well. But I would rather we get to a point where we can write all types of women instead of having to focus on the "strong woman" since there are also weak women, nice women, mean women, needy women, independent women, and some women who are sometimes all of these things. And men as well.

 

THIS THIS THIS! SO MUCH THIS! As nice as it is to have "strong women" I love reading about varied women as you mentioned. Also I personally like reading about people I identify with too. And agreed that varied men are important too!

[R2s Muse]

THIS THIS THIS! SO MUCH THIS! As nice as it is to have "strong women" I love reading about varied women as you mentioned. Also I personally like reading about people I identify with too. And agreed that varied men are important too!

I wish we were there already! Like, I read a delightful fantasy book recently where the heroine was just a regular woman who was a healer. No special powers. No fighting abilities. Just a person, constantly chased by bad guys who wanted to kill her. It was kind of nice seeing her think her way out (and of course luck her way out a few times as well), even if a couple times my gut wished that she could have fought her way out. 

[Cerulione]

What's the definition of "strong woman" though?

 

Strength is not always the "badass and can kick your ass & loudly vocal"... Sometime it can be ones who persevere quietly, those who stays kind although the world treats them like... Those who believe that kindness truly means something and actually do something about that, those who complaints and do something about it too, those who don't complaints and do something about it, those who simply just put one foot in front of another to survive, those to whom getting out of bed every morning means living nightmare and yet still drag themselves out...

 

those who are wholesome and inside that standard western "strong" definition, those who are broken and survive no matter what, those who looks as soft as daisies but no matter what you do to them, they keep a silent fight, those who loudly shout to fight on their course.

 

Sometime, I wonder why so many people in the Western countries define "strong woman" so narrowly. Probably because I grew up elsewhere and see lots of other definition.

[Fadburger]

What's the definition of "strong woman" though?

 

Strength is not always the "badass and can kick your ass & loudly vocal"... Sometime it can be ones who persevere quietly, those who stays kind although the world treats them like... Those who believe that kindness truly means something and actually do something about that, those who complaints and do something about it too, those who don't complaints and do something about it, those who simply just put one foot in front of another to survive, those to whom getting out of bed every morning means living nightmare and yet still drag themselves out...

 

those who are wholesome and inside that standard western "strong" definition, those who are broken and survive no matter what, those who looks as soft as daisies but no matter what you do to them, they keep a silent fight, those who loudly shout to fight on their course.

 

Sometime, I wonder why so many people in the Western countries define "strong woman" so narrowly. Probably because I grew up elsewhere and see lots of other definition.

 

Well the reason we were using the term "strong woman" quoted like that is that we are referring to a specific trope that a woman in a lead position has to have male attributes, basically. It's not that we don't like strong women as a whole, just that today's media tends to make female characters more masculine. I'll see if I can find a better explanation I am not good at nuance lol

 

EDIT: Here is a good writeup, if you don't want to read it all just look at traits 1, 2 and 3 to see what R2s and I are talking about: http://feministficti...-characters-tm/

[R2s Muse]

What's the definition of "strong woman" though?

 

Strength is not always the "badass and can kick your ass & loudly vocal"... Sometime it can be ones who persevere quietly, those who stays kind although the world treats them like... Those who believe that kindness truly means something and actually do something about that, those who complaints and do something about it too, those who don't complaints and do something about it, those who simply just put one foot in front of another to survive, those to whom getting out of bed every morning means living nightmare and yet still drag themselves out...

 

those who are wholesome and inside that standard western "strong" definition, those who are broken and survive no matter what, those who looks as soft as daisies but no matter what you do to them, they keep a silent fight, those who loudly shout to fight on their course.

 

Sometime, I wonder why so many people in the Western countries define "strong woman" so narrowly. Probably because I grew up elsewhere and see lots of other definition.

Indeed, I agree, there are many definitions of strength. But like Fadburger said, strength in western media is often defined through a masculine lens, and so you get Buffy or Xena or Wonder Woman. Whom I love dearly. Even in the workplace, success is typically defined by words more often associated with men, assertive, brilliant, aggressive, when those same traits in women are often seen as bad, bossy, know it all, b!tchy.  So the "strong woman" persona is more reactive to these trends, i.e. "fight like a man." 

 

...and R2 pushes away her Soapbox #23.  (and points to Fadburger's article; yes, :nods: that, exactly)

[Danny Boy 7]

Guys check out my OC for D&D! Not Cullen related, but still pretty awesome

Spoiler

[R2s Muse]

Guys check out my OC for D&D! Not Cullen related, but still pretty awesome

Spoiler

Oh, Danny, he's stunning!!

[Danny Boy 7]

Oh, Danny, he's stunning!!

Thanks. All the praise goes to Slugette on tumblr

[Fadburger]

Guys check out my OC for D&D! Not Cullen related, but still pretty awesome

Spoiler

 

He looks awesome!!

 

Indeed, I agree, there are many definitions of strength. But like Fadburger said, strength in western media is often defined through a masculine lens, and so you get Buffy or Xena or Wonder Woman. Whom I love dearly. Even in the workplace, success is typically defined by words more often associated with men, assertive, brilliant, aggressive, when those same traits in women are often seen as bad, bossy, know it all, b!tchy.  So the "strong woman" persona is more reactive to these trends, i.e. "fight like a man." 

 

...and R2 pushes away her Soapbox #23.  (and points to Fadburger's article; yes, :nods: that, exactly)

 

Yep yep! Also, a good example of the type of women I'd like to see more in media, that is also topical to this forum lol, is Josephine. Nothing wrong with having the typical "strong female" sort here and there so long as women in media are portrayed in varied and interesting roles as well. Being allowed to be feminine and soft doesn't mean you can't get things done 

 

EDIT: Oh! Oh! Wynne is another good example of women I'd like to see more of in media, nurturing motherly/grandmotherly types who arent weak! Women who aren't useless over 30! 

[R2s Muse]

Thanks. All the praise goes to Slugette on tumblr

So tell us more about him!!

[CuriousArtemis]

I'm so staying out of this debate lol Though I'd caution anyone making sweeping statements about entire sections of the world.

[Tishina]

For me, part of it is when I grew up. Yes, I want to see a variety of women, but virtually every female character in books before the 1970s or more like the 1980s was the old style princess who is beautiful, kind, graceful, and helpless, waiting to be rescued. You were smothered in messages about how you had to behave, look, dress, think, and all the limits on who and what you could do or be. I'm still starving for more really well done female characters (too many in games and TV shows are shallow tokenism in my opinion.) Cassandra was great for any number of reasons. And while I love stories with women who are physically strong and physically brave, I also love those like Menolly from Anne McCaffrey's Pern books. What I really love is competent women who are willing to fight for what they want/believe/whatever, by whatever means. I kind of like the "waif" looking person who is strong and downright deadly (my Arisha Surana?)...but I also want to see some women who look physically strong. There's virtually no variety in female body types, but huge variety in male body types in cartoons and games (see the Escher Girls for what I mean...) Even non-human/alien females...change the head on them and maybe one or two cosmetic changes, and you have that almost-identical human.

 

But if I can say something without anyone, please, taking it personally? "Variety of women" actually tends to be used to complain when real variety actually finally appears and often is a demand by those who liked the traditional to return to it. The moment there's a successful female character who is somewhat masculine in either behavior or appearance or whatever else that defies the norm, the term gets used. "OK, see, we've had one. Now I'm tired of masculine/physically strong/whatever women, can't we have a variety?" And as soon as they say that, I think of the hundreds of very feminine women still appearing in TV and movies and advertisements who are the requisite size, shape, and other very feminine appearance and behavior and interests. Sometimes it sounds to people like me who like those "imperfect" women that even one is too many for some people.

 

I don't want all women in games, comics, etc. to be physically strong/very tall/imposing or very short or heavy or dressed plainly or less than beautiful or to behave in ways traditionally seen as male. That would be at least as boring as being forcefed a steady diet the traditional and perfect. But I don't want the "imperfect" women to be virtually invisible either, which is what they mostly are even now. It doesn't have to be a threat to let other people see their ideals sometimes too; the only thing their inclusion attacks is the idea that all women have to fit a common mold. If you don't like a character, they probably weren't written for you, and that's OK.

 

(Before anyone assumes I hate all traditional depictions of women, maybe I should point out that the only TV show I've voluntarily watched in a decade is Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries - and her beautiful clothes and style are a lot of the attraction. And the fact a beautiful woman over 40 plays in the leading, romantic role.)

[Danny Boy 7]

So tell us more about him!!

I plan on writing some fic for him, but…(also WIP) Will take advice.

 

After a civil war tore apart his homeland Dagen Ashgrove escaped alongside hundreds of other refugees. Fleeing to a distant continent Dagen became a wandering sell-sword who made his money by conning villagers into bets with him. For months he lived this way, slowly drifting deeper and deeper into depression over his cowardly departure. Despite making money on the road he’d often spend it all on drink in the local tavern. By the time he found his way to Tal’Dorei Dagen had sold nearly every possession he owned except for his family’s scroll of pedigree, signet ring and his sword.

 

When he thought there was nothing left for him Dagen dreamt of a pale chimera, the symbol of House Ashgrove. The creature spoke to him in a deep and familiar voice. It told him to climb heaven’s steps, to bow his head to the tail of god and become a champion of the Ash Grove.

 

Dagen woke up in a pool of his own sweat and would have dismissed the dream as nothing more than a bad piece of beef and cheap ale, but when he opened his hand he found a single Chimeran scale in its palm.

 

For the next month Dagen traveled looking for heaven’s mount. He almost gave up until he came to an ancient mountain range in Draconia, which in Draconic roughly translated to the Steps to Heaven. He climbed high for three days until he came upon a mountain stream. He drank the sweet tasting water which was unnaturally warm and in moments fell asleep.

 

When he woke up the stream was gone and he was surrounded by powdery white snow. His last obstacle was a sheer cliff. With no climbing gear Dagen clawed his way up, but with each foot he felt the weight of his every failure pull him down. When he was only a foot away it took every ounce of his will not to let go, but with one last push he crawled onto the mountain top.

 

Before passing out Dagen stared up at a glowing figure. A golden scaled humanoid, known as a dragonborn. The creature reached out and touched Dagen’s shoulder. The dragonborn spoke in an ancient gravely voice, “I am Marroshok and this is your new beginning.”

[Fadburger]

For me, part of it is when I grew up. Yes, I want to see a variety of women, but virtually every female character in books before the 1970s or more like the 1980s was the old style princess who is beautiful, kind, graceful, and helpless, waiting to be rescued. You were smothered in messages about how you had to behave, look, dress, think, and all the limits on who and what you could do or be. I'm still starving for more really well done female characters (too many in games and TV shows are shallow tokenism in my opinion.) Cassandra was great for any number of reasons. And while I love stories with women who are physically strong and physically brave, I also love those like Menolly from Anne McCaffrey's Pern books. What I really love is competent women who are willing to fight for what they want/believe/whatever, by whatever means. I kind of like the "waif" looking person who is strong and downright deadly (my Arisha Surana?)...but I also want to see some women who look physically strong. There's virtually no variety in female body types, but huge variety in male body types in cartoons and games (see the Escher Girls for what I mean...) Even non-human/alien females...change the head on them and maybe one or two cosmetic changes, and you have that almost-identical human.

But if I can say something without anyone, please, taking it personally? "Variety of women" actually tends to be used to complain when real variety actually finally appears and often is a demand by those who liked the traditional to return to it. The moment there's a successful female character who is somewhat masculine in either behavior or appearance or whatever else that defies the norm, the term gets used. "OK, see, we've had one. Now I'm tired of masculine/physically strong/whatever women, can't we have a variety?" And as soon as they say that, I think of the hundreds of very feminine women still appearing in TV and movies and advertisements who are the requisite size, shape, and other very feminine appearance and behavior and interests. Sometimes it sounds to people like me who like those "imperfect" women that even one is too many for some people.

I don't want all women in games, comics, etc. to be physically strong/very tall/imposing or very short or heavy or dressed plainly or less than beautiful or to behave in ways traditionally seen as male. That would be at least as boring as being forcefed a steady diet the traditional and perfect. But I don't want the "imperfect" women to be virtually invisible either, which is what they mostly are even now. It doesn't have to be a threat to let other people see their ideals sometimes too; the only thing their inclusion attacks is the idea that all women have to fit a common mold. If you don't like a character, they probably weren't written for you, and that's OK.

(Before anyone assumes I hate all traditional depictions of women, maybe I should point out that the only TV show I've voluntarily watched in a decade is Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries - and her beautiful clothes and style are a lot of the attraction. And the fact a beautiful woman over 40 plays in the leading, romantic role.)

Ok I'm on mobile right now so I might have missed something lol but from what I can tell I completely agree with you. Also Cassandra is one of my favorite characters because of the way that she balances being physically strong etc with being a romantic, I liked her to begin with of course but after doing her little personal quest in skyhold my love for her just went through the roof.

EDIT: again I am not knocking badass women I love them too. I just worry sometimes that people think that that's what women want so "ok let's close up shop feminism is over time , our job is done time to go home"...

[CuriousArtemis]

Oh man. Caveat. I was a little drunk when I posted earlier lol Sorry if it came off harsh. Was watching the US footie game and celebrating. Also on mobile so can't be too loquacious.

[R2s Muse]

I plan on writing some fic for him, but…(also WIP) Will take advice.

 

After a civil war tore apart his homeland Dagen Ashgrove escaped alongside hundreds of other refugees. Fleeing to a distant continent Dagen became a wandering sell-sword who made his money by conning villagers into bets with him. For months he lived this way, slowly drifting deeper and deeper into depression over his cowardly departure. Despite making money on the road he’d often spend it all on drink in the local tavern. By the time he found his way to Tal’Dorei Dagen had sold nearly every possession he owned except for his family’s scroll of pedigree, signet ring and his sword.

 

When he thought there was nothing left for him Dagen dreamt of a pale chimera, the symbol of House Ashgrove. The creature spoke to him in a deep and familiar voice. It told him to climb heaven’s steps, to bow his head to the tail of god and become a champion of the Ash Grove.

 

Dagen woke up in a pool of his own sweat and would have dismissed the dream as nothing more than a bad piece of beef and cheap ale, but when he opened his hand he found a single Chimeran scale in its palm.

 

For the next month Dagen traveled looking for heaven’s mount. He almost gave up until he came to an ancient mountain range in Draconia, which in Draconic roughly translated to the Steps to Heaven. He climbed high for three days until he came upon a mountain stream. He drank the sweet tasting water which was unnaturally warm and in moments fell asleep.

 

When he woke up the stream was gone and he was surrounded by powdery white snow. His last obstacle was a sheer cliff. With no climbing gear Dagen clawed his way up, but with each foot he felt the weight of his every failure pull him down. When he was only a foot away it took every ounce of his will not to let go, but with one last push he crawled onto the mountain top.

 

Before passing out Dagen stared up at a glowing figure. A golden scaled humanoid, known as a dragonborn. The creature reached out and touched Dagen’s shoulder. The dragonborn spoke in an ancient gravely voice, “I am Marroshok and this is your new beginning.”

What universe is this in? A new one or existing?

[Danny Boy 7]

What universe is this in? A new one or existing?

I'm using the setting for the Critical Role show on Geek and Sundry. It's not publicly fleshed out so a lot of his backstory is original in the setting.

[rapscallioness]

That's good stuff, Danny.

[rapscallioness]

I once pooped on the idea of romance novels until I got a real bad cold. Went to the store and got all the essentials: medicine; soups; snacks; a good fashion magazine; annnd a romance novel. That's when I was like, "oh. I understand now."

 

It was good. I read quite a few after that. I have not read one in years, though, but still love them. I like historical romance stories.

 

And the thing is--it still has to be a good story. Good romance story is just like any other story. It's hard to write a good one. You still have to be a good writer. There needs to be drama in the story that the romance is a part of. I like the slow burn, sexual tension, feisty female protagonist  ones.

 

huehuehue..