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[Tishina]

Cullen changes over time, all people do and sometimes drastically *shrug.* They could have done a much better job of explaining the current shifts in DAI, but I don't necessarily find them that inconsistent, just the writing is inconsistent even within DAI. He started out as an honorable man in DAO; reaching for that person again but through another outlet makes perfect sense to me once the Templars have been tainted for him.

 

The Chantry abused Templars which set up the mages to be abused by the Templars, and the Chantry was playing power games in Kirkwall, at least partly through Meredith by trying to control the city. I think he started to see this once Meredith was gone, and I also suspect he began to find out how much she hid from him and how much was actually sanctioned, even if unofficially, by the Chantry. Anders confirms rape as a problem in Kinloch Hold. The fact that the mages in the Gallows are allowed no real contact with family, etc. outside the Circle and the fact Meredith was ready to use the rite of Tranquility on a Harrowed mage for simply sending a letter to a lover (on the grounds he corrupted a Templar) means that the Gallows was the perfect hunting ground for sexual predators. How desperate would a mage have had to be to point a finger at a Templar for rape, knowing Meredith was much more likely to make them Tranquil for corrupting a Templar? Look at the real world and how victims are routinely blamed and questioned when they make rape accusations and think how easy it would be for a Templar to simply say the victim was lying to get him kicked out? Physical abuse goes hand in hand with that (rape isn't about sex, it's about power and causing pain,) but with the threat of Tranquility as a punishment and the vanishing chance of Meredith believing any mage's word over a Templar's....  I doubt anyone ever made an accusation directly to Cullen because of his relationship to Meredith, and I think he'd be pretty oblivious to anything less than that or actually catching someone in the act (and if the victim was not actively resisting, the Templar would probably be able to convince him that it was consensual and wouldn't happen again, and would the victim have been brave enough to contradict that...to someone they believed was completely under Meredith's control?) Fear is the predator's main weapon, and the mages in the Gallows were victims with nowhere to run and noone they could trust to appeal to.

 

A lot depends on which sources you believe, of course. Cass makes the claim that they knew there were abuses at the Gallows but they left Meredith alone because they found a lot of blood magic going on (of course, you also have to wonder whose word they were taking about which came first.) That, of course, ignores the simple cause and effect...push people far enough and some will turn to the only weapons they have, no  matter how awful.

[thats1evildude]

Uhm... actually when you get the notes on ser alriks body and give it to cullen he remarks about it tho I dont remember what he says exactly but I think he agrees to it just not with the abuse part.... Though I can generally headcannon Cullen agreed to most of Merediths action because, as you said, Kirkwall is quite known for high number of possession and such... Just my two cents ....

He says there's an argument to be made for applying the Rite of Tranquility more widely. Cullen wasn't aware of Alrik's other activities.

[Flaine1996]

He says there's an argument to be made for applying the Rite of Tranquility more widely. Cullen wasn't aware of Alrik's other activities.

Oh... I see its been a long time since i played...  Thanks for that

[CuriousArtemis]

 

Now. it is a shame that the writers felt compelled to sanitize, for lack of a better word, Cullen's controversial opinions in DA:I and instead thew him onto the 'Templars are Bad rah rah' bandwagon. He could have been our one voice of insight into the templars who sees the original good the Order tried to bring, and it could have added depth for him to be struggling with his biases or still be pro-Circle, since his stated reasons for overthrowing Meredith were not that templars are categorically bad, but that her actions were 'not what the Order stands for.' Instead, he gets to join everyone else in descrying the templars, mostly because they make him take lyrium. Um, wut?  "Don't you see why I want nothing to do with that life?" No, Cullen, in your case, honestly, I don't. :shrug: 

 

Yessss... YESSSS. All of this, all of it. The controversial "not black and white" nature of his character is what originally made me a fan. They killed that off in DAI. To the point where, if I had my wish and could make just one of them bi, I'd choose Solas a thousand times over Cullen. Solas became the new DA2!Cullen for me: good person who is capable of doing bad things because he "thinks" he knows what's right.

[duckley]

well thank you all for your responses. I guess its just me and my false memory syndrome LOL!

 

I haven't played DA2 in quite some time. Its just that I remember feeling when I did play that there was a whole lot more rumour and innuendo than actual hard evidence and fact of rampant physical and sexual abuse and forced tranquility. Clearly there were instances - but I didn't sense it was rampant. I did get the sense that there was a lot of intense supervision, oversight, and loss of personal freedom - which was bad enough - but I could forgive Cullen for that given his experiences and given how crazy the city seemed to be with apostate mages doing some pretty horrible things. 

 

My recollection is that Cullen tended to investigate things (like the possesed recruit and the tranquil solution rumour) so that sort of scares me into thinking if what most of you suggest is true, that there was a lot of abuse etc... then surely Cullen would know. That breaks my heart (but wont shake then my head canon lol)

 

I do wonder where Orsino was in all of this. He obviously had access to Elthina - why didn't he say anything or did he not know? How could he not know?

[Ghost Gal]

well thank you all for your responses. I guess its just me and my false memory syndrome LOL!

 

I haven't played DA2 in quite some time. Its just that I remember feeling when I did play that there was a whole lot more rumour and innuendo than actual hard evidence and fact of rampant physical and sexual abuse and forced tranquility. Clearly there were instances - but I didn't sense it was rampant. I did get the sense that there was a lot of intense supervision, oversight, and loss of personal freedom - which was bad enough - but I could forgive Cullen for that given his experiences and given how crazy the city seemed to be with apostate mages doing some pretty horrible things. 

 

That's just the problem, though. For every rat you see, there's fifty you don't know about. =/

 

Much like in real life, abuse often goes unreported. Abusers never hurt their victims in public where "hard evidence" can implement them (as shown in this public service announcement--watch at your own discretion), they do it in private where they can get away with it. So if some information manages to filter out into the public, in the form of "rumour and innuendo," then that means a lot had to happen behind the scenes for even that to make it into the public's hearing.

 

And then there's the problem that Templars had ways of silencing and discrediting their victims. As Cole tells Cassandra in party banter, " 'If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic.' " Under Meredith's strict regime where mages accused of anything where guilty until proven innocent, and where a blood magic accusation was pretty much an instant death or tranquility sentence, it makes sense that most mages would avoid trying to report their abuse for fear of retaliation. (And then those who'd escaped weren't considered credible sources because, apostate.)

 

I do wonder where Orsino was in all of this. He obviously had access to Elthina - why didn't he say anything or did he not know? How could he not know?

 

I got the impression that he did know and tried to report it, often, but people didn't take the mages as seriously as they took Templars.

 

Granted, I don't think Orsino even shows up in the game until the end of the Act II (during the Qunari invasion), but from the Act III cutscenes and walkthroughs I've seen, he was constantly shown butting heads with Meredith and protesting how his mages were being treated, and was constantly frustrated that none of his efforts were making an impact. By the time Anders blew up the Chantry, he just seemed so tired and frustrated by it all. "Blood magic. Where do you not see blood magic? My people can't even sneeze without you accusing them of corruption!"

[R2s Muse]

well thank you all for your responses. I guess its just me and my false memory syndrome LOL!

 

I haven't played DA2 in quite some time. Its just that I remember feeling when I did play that there was a whole lot more rumour and innuendo than actual hard evidence and fact of rampant physical and sexual abuse and forced tranquility. Clearly there were instances - but I didn't sense it was rampant. I did get the sense that there was a lot of intense supervision, oversight, and loss of personal freedom - which was bad enough - but I could forgive Cullen for that given his experiences and given how crazy the city seemed to be with apostate mages doing some pretty horrible things. 

 

My recollection is that Cullen tended to investigate things (like the possesed recruit and the tranquil solution rumour) so that sort of scares me into thinking if what most of you suggest is true, that there was a lot of abuse etc... then surely Cullen would know. That breaks my heart (but wont shake then my head canon lol)

 

I do wonder where Orsino was in all of this. He obviously had access to Elthina - why didn't he say anything or did he not know? How could he not know?

To be clear, Cullen was not investigating the Tranquil solution. He was aware of it because Alrik had  proposed it to Meredith, and Meredith had turned him down. One thing to note about Cullen in DA2 is that he's basically the PR guy for the Gallows, particularly in Act 2, and he almost never tells you what *he* thinks. Like with the quote thats1evilguy mentioned, he says "There's an argument to be made..." He tends to talk around these issues and gives you the party line, sometimes reluctantly so from his tone and body language. Within the same conversation, he also essentially acknowledges that he knows Hawke killed Alrik, and doesn't pursue it.  

 

So, I don't think it's actually headcanon that he didn't know everything that was going on at the Gallows. It's canon, as he tells you Meredith kept things from him. It's headcanon, of course, *which* things. And some of it must have been willful ignorance. But he is aware that things have gone from bad to worse in Act 3 and tells Hawke so on several occasions. We'll never know what he might have been doing behind the scenes, even if he does nothing of impact until the end of Act 3.

 

On Orsino, agree with the previous post. Orsino was complaining throughout the game at the treatment of mages under his care. There's an argument to be made for Elthina's lack of leadership (see what I did there...? ).

[Baboontje]

Edit....I just saw someone posted the same thing already.... Never mind :')))))))

[duckley]

So what can we say then, that Cullen is guilty of?

 

He appears guilty of allowing Meredith's harsh treatment of Mages to go unchallenged.  By harsh treatment I refer to Mages being locked up and being subjected to the rite of tranquility for perceived transgressions that typically would not be dealt this way.

 

We know the  harsh treatment included a denial of basic freedoms  for Mages as we saw that Mages were pretty much not allowed beyond the courtyard of the Gallows, except for Orsino. We also know, that based on his statements in DA2 that at least initially, Cullen supported Mages being locked up. He held this view, I assume based on his torture by them, and the murder of his fellow Templars at Kinloch Hold. This view was likely reinforced by the fact that there seemed to be a number of Abominations/Demons/crazy Mages running around Kirkwall murdering citizens.

 

I think we can also assume that he also supported the Rite of Tranquility to at least some extent. But we don't know the frequency the Rite of Tranquility was actually occurring and we don't know the specifics of why it was being used. I assume it is not supposed to be used as a punishment  However I don't recall Cullen saying anything specifically about this....

 

I am not sure about what else he is guilty of. I really can't recall how many allegations of rape there were (two references?)  and I cant recall if there is any evidence to suggest Cullen knew about any actual or alleged rapes. Clearly Mages would be vulnerable to sexual abuse, but I can't imagine Cullen knowing about it and doing nothing. There is nothing in his character in any of the games that would support that from my perspective.

 

Over time, his view of Mages clearly changed from they all need to be locked up to there needs to be some sort of oversight, some productive role for them to take on,  but not every Mage is an Abomination waiting to happen.

 

I can accept Cullen's harsh view of Mages and his transition in his view. I get how it developed and how it changed. I can accept how difficult it would be for him to try to change things at the Gallows considering he would have had no support from the Chantry (Elthina) nor the Seekers.

 

I  will have to start romancing someone else and end my love affair with Cullen if he knew about sexual abuse. Is there any proof of this....

[Qun00]

While Tumblr is a marvelous source of fanarts, that comes at a price: Having to tolerate its paranoid, oversensitive denizens.

Check out this piece of work.

"The cringe is strong with this one. Because I know lots of people are going to look at this conversation and say, “Wow, look how progressive Cullen is! He doesn’t care that your elf is a mean ol’ Dalish!” Well. My response can just be copied and pasted from the previous #templar tryst.

I dislike how it’s written like Cullen should be considered this upstanding citizen for liking her despite her culture/race. As if it’s a flaw, and he is so graciously making an exception for her. No, ******.
Worse than that, he is exhibiting the equivalent to being “colourblind.” Guess what? Being “colourblind” i.e. “I don’t see race I just see people” and other avoidance is a form of racism!

“I never considered,” says Cullen. So he’s not throwing out slurs like rabbit and knife-ear. But he’s dismissing/invalidating her identity. He doesn’t want to acknowledge it, and as such is equating her background with something negative. (More on colourblindness re: these points can be found in this article.)

And this is especially yucky in Lavellan’s situation, where everyone around her is constantly trying to assimilate her, turn her into this figure of a religion she does not believe in. And now her LI is doing this too.

In comparison, many people give Sera **** for giving the Inquisitor a hard time for being Dalish. But personally I prefer it 100% because she both acknowledges her, and even better, she learns and grows to accept her. She even admits in both LI dialogue and in Trespasser that the problem is more about her than it is with the Dalish; her insecurity about not being a “true elf.” Where Cullen just prefers to ignore it.

And oh man. “Elves weren’t treated differently in the Circles I served.” JFC I seriously dropped my jaw at the utter bullshit he spouted, threw back my head, and laughed a laugh so salty I may be a 2nd trumpet Seraph. (Sorry I’m super into Seraph of the End RN.) Because we know that is the opposite of the truth. Elven mages face discrimination for being elves and for being mages. Both outside and inside the Circle. Kinloch and Kirkwall being no exception, but rather examples.

Like he’s not even being ambiguous he is straight-up lying. And people who haven’t played the previous games or read the books don’t even know. It’s cheap cheating!"

[Ghost Gal]

So what can we say then, that Cullen is guilty of?

 

I don't know. The games are insufferably vague about it. And, as others have said, his support of Meredith in DAI is insufficiently addressed when it's not clumsily retconned.

 

While Tumblr is a marvelous source of fanarts, that comes at a price: Having to tolerate its paranoid, oversensitive denizens.

Check out this piece of work.

"The cringe is strong with this one. Because I know lots of people are going to look at this conversation and say, “Wow, look how progressive Cullen is! He doesn’t care that your elf is a mean ol’ Dalish!” Well. My response can just be copied and pasted from the previous #templar tryst.

I dislike how it’s written like Cullen should be considered this upstanding citizen for liking her despite her culture/race. As if it’s a flaw, and he is so graciously making an exception for her. No, ******.
Worse than that, he is exhibiting the equivalent to being “colourblind.” Guess what? Being “colourblind” i.e. “I don’t see race I just see people” and other avoidance is a form of racism!

“I never considered,” says Cullen. So he’s not throwing out slurs like rabbit and knife-ear. But he’s dismissing/invalidating her identity. He doesn’t want to acknowledge it, and as such is equating her background with something negative. (More on colourblindness re: these points can be found in this article.)

 

....

 

What the...?

 

1) I never thought "being Dalish" was an inherently bad thing, or that companions are supposed to "recognize" it as such and deign from on high to forgive Lavellan for this grievous fault, like Solas and Sera. What a racist dirtwad Cullen is for not prejudging or thinking less of her for it, or make her feel like he's grown to like her despite her icky, yucky, disgusting Dalishness.

 

2) To my knowledge, the "Does it bother you that I'm Dalish?" thing doesn't come up unless you're romancing him, right? Based on context, I thought it was Lavellan asking Cullen if her being Dalish would be a problem for him. When he replies, "I never considered," I thought what he meant was he never considered it a problem. He has no problem with her being Dalish.

 

Granted, you could argue that Cullen is rather naive and thoughtless for not considering the Dalish's strong religious and cultural differences from Andrastians, and for just assuming they'd never need to talk about it. But... I think it's a stretch to condemn him for being racist.

 

And this is especially yucky in Lavellan’s situation, where everyone around her is constantly trying to assimilate her, turn her into this figure of a religion she does not believe in. And now her LI is doing this too.In comparison, many people give Sera **** for giving the Inquisitor a hard time for being Dalish. But personally I prefer it 100% because she both acknowledges her, and even better, she learns and grows to accept her. She even admits in both LI dialogue and in Trespasser that the problem is more about her than it is with the Dalish; her insecurity about not being a “true elf.” Where Cullen just prefers to ignore it.

 

.... WHAT?!

 

1) Literally every companion and adviser except Solas buys the Herald of Andraste thing. Cassandra, Leliana, Josephine, Cullen, Varric, Sera, Blackwall, I could go on. All but Solas sing "The Dawn Will Come" after Haven, most of them exalt you into a religious figure; by Skyhold most of them have either bought the Herald of Andraste thing (especially Varric and Sera) or they stress the importance of you living up to the image because the people believe in you, and if you fail you'll let everyone down. (Heck, apart from Dorian I think only Cullen ever asks you how you feel about the situation, and offers moral support if you feel scared or pressured by the "fate of the world" on your shoulders.)

 

2) Sera literally tries to tell you after the Temple of Mythal that you can't believe in the elven gods anymore because, "You're the Herald of Andraste! There can't be the Maker and elven gods!" I think that's a more definitive example of "trying to assimilate her, trying to turn her into this figure of a religion she does not believe in" more than the guy who knows you're Dalish and never makes a fuss about it.

 

3) Sera literally gives a Dalish girlfriend an ultimatum: dump your religion/culture, or get dumped. That's far from "learn[ing] and grow[ing] to accept her." Sera is only appeased when you give her her way, tell her what she wants to hear, and change for her. Yeah, she calms down by Trespasser, but that's two years later, and two years too late as far as I'm concerned. The damage was done; in order to reach that point, you had to change for her.

 

Contrast to Cullen, whom you can find praying in a chapel but who just calmly explains that simple faith gives him comfort, but never once tries to force you to pray with him or convert for him. And two years later in Trespasesr, when he asks you to marry him, you can ask to give Dalish vows, and he's totally fine with it.

 

Who is more accepting? The girl who tries to force you to dump your Dalish religion and heritage, or the guy who lets you give Dalish vows at your wedding?

 

 

And oh man. “Elves weren’t treated differently in the Circles I served.” JFC I seriously dropped my jaw at the utter bullshit he spouted, threw back my head, and laughed a laugh so salty I may be a 2nd trumpet Seraph.

 

This person seems very mean-spirited.

 

Because we know that is the opposite of the truth. Elven mages face discrimination for being elves and for being mages. Both outside and inside the Circle. Kinloch and Kirkwall being no exception, but rather examples. Like he’s not even being ambiguous he is straight-up lying. And people who haven’t played the previous games or read the books don’t even know. It’s cheap cheating!"

 

It's possible that Cullen honestly never witnessed it, and honestly doesn't know.

 

It's kept a little vague as to how much discrimination elven mages receive for being elves at Circles, or how overt people are about it. It's possible that Cullen honestly never witnessed someone giving an elven mage grief for being an elf. He might have only ever heard Templars barking things like, "Shut your mouth, mage!" but never "Learn your place, knife-ear!" He might have known mages have their little cliques and hierarchies and pick on each other, but it's possible he never heard humans apprentices saying things like, "I don't take orders from elves" to an elven apprentice.

 

Again, I chalk this up to benign ignorance, not malicious lies or racism.

[Qun00]

I'm sure Cullen has done things he isn't proud of during his years as a templar. But redemption is something I greatly respect and support.

[CuriousArtemis]

That why I block/ignore/unfollow all "social" commentary on Tumblr, despite being a flaming liberal/progressive myself. I especially am wary of Dragon Age/BioWare fans. They're like that guy in Holy Grail, "Help Help I'm being oppressed!"

 

Regarding Cullen and what he knew/didn't knew.

 

I personally wish they had expounded on this. Instead DAI gives us a Cullen who's just sort of generically sorry for the bad stuff that happened. But oh he's learned a lot since then and he's a changed man now. Go mages! etc. etc. It's such a cop out.

 

I would have actually PREFERRED a Cullen who, after some pushing and shoving, admitted that he DID know about some very SPECIFIC evils/wrongs that were occurring. That he wrestled with that and still suffers from the guilt to this day. That he tried to justify his decisions or turning a blind eye to horrible things. That he admits he was WRONG and that maybe, despite everything, he still harbors some prejudices, and some anger, YES! because of the torture and abuse HE suffered as a young man. How he continues to wrestle with these issues, etc.

 

THAT'S an interesting character. That's the Cullen I fell in love with (not like that lol) and just found so fascinating. That's the character I really wanted to romance, to explore in a complex relationship (which is why I never wanted to romance him with a mage; same with Fenris). Fortunately BioWare spared me the opportunity to do so  

[Tishina]

Very strange take on both Cullen and elves. I played through DA:O twice as an elven mage, and never once did I get the impression within the Circle that elven mages were treated differently. We do have the examples of Orsino and Fionna (sadly, very poor examples) to suggest differently. I have real issues with the victim blaming of elves that has been increasing as the games have gone on, and the fact that the two most powerful elven Circle mages both show such devastatingly bad errors in judgment doesn't encourage me (actually, when you add Solas and Marethari and Zathrian and even Merrill, has there actually been an elven mage they haven't made out to have horrible judgment - Merrill if only for her use of blood magic?) But they didn't seem to face any barriers that human mages don't.

 

But Cullen...Cullen is about the only one besides Solas who doesn't pressure you about Andrastrianism when you play a Dalish and seems prepared to take you at your word and clearly has his own deep doubts about the Chantry. He's completely supportive of you taking Dalish vows if you romance and marry him. He doesn't ask you to change your beliefs or culture. Sera does if you're Dalish. They didn't exactly have a huge amount of content, sadly, to get into as much as most of us would have liked, and no, he never asks you much about your culture or background (he doesn't for a Trevelyan either, does he?) But if you ask him about whether being Dalish is a problem, he actually says "I hadn't considered...elves weren't treated differently in the Circles I served. I didn't think what it might mean to you. I hope that doesn't - I mean, does it bother you?" He ASKS. He doesn't assume that you might not have a problem with him being human. He grew up in Honnleath and may never have had contact with a Dalish or even many elves before leaving to join the Templars. He's also the person who chews out the guy in Haven who apparently insulted Charter for being an elf...

 

So yeah, I find that particular rant baffling.

[CuriousArtemis]

(actually, when you add Solas and Marethari and Zathrian and even Merrill, has there actually been an elven mage they haven't made out to have horrible judgment - Merrill if only for her use of blood magic?) 

 

I wouldn't put Solas in that category. Not because I think he's a "good guy," just that I think he's sort of above that whole "good decision/bad decision" method of categorizing. He's more complex (I think) than any character we've ever had in this franchise.

 

Honestly, how many good MAGES IN GENERAL does this series ever give us? But I guess that could be sort of a plus in terms of storytelling? Perfect/100% good characters make boring characters. But let me see, a good elven mage? How about Zathrien's First??? Is that digging too deep? Hell even Fenris' lousy sister fails the test. The books are no better. You've got the crazy First from the Dalish clan that were slaughtered, and of course you have Solas' lackey whom he murders at the end... forget his name. Buncha pointy-eared nutters!

 

EDIT: Minaeve! Minaeve

[Xilizhra]

EDIT: Minaeve! Minaeve

"I like [the Tranquil] better than most people" is a fairly horrific thing to say.

[Qun00]

I think it is good that we've got so many crazy mages. Otherwise, the templars vs mages choice would be even more ridiculously easy than it already is.

People's first instinct already is to side with the oppressed. But the threat often posed by mages in the franchise can at least appeal to the player's pragmatic side.

"I like [the Tranquil] better than most people" is a fairly horrific thing to say.

Not really. It's not like she agrees with performing the rite of tranquility.

Minaeve's point in the rest of the conversation is that their condition is no reason to forget that they're still people.

[Tishina]

I wouldn't put Solas in that category. Not because I think he's a "good guy," just that I think he's sort of above that whole "good decision/bad decision" method of categorizing. He's more complex (I think) than any character we've ever had in this franchise.

 

Honestly, how many good MAGES IN GENERAL does this series ever give us? But I guess that could be sort of a plus in terms of storytelling? Perfect/100% good characters make boring characters. But let me see, a good elven mage? How about Zathrien's First??? Is that digging too deep? Hell even Fenris' lousy sister fails the test. The books are no better. You've got the crazy First from the Dalish clan that were slaughtered, and of course you have Solas' lackey whom he murders at the end... forget his name. Buncha pointy-eared nutters!

 

EDIT: Minaeve! Minaeve

Well, Solas may be outside that category in a sense (and you know I love him and hope we can stop him,) but it's hard to pretend his goals aren't appalling as they appear to stand.

 

I'm just talking a positive character, I'm not talking 100% good (s**t, can you imagine anyone less pleasant to know than a perfect person?) But every single one of them has made major-get-lots-of-people-killed kind of mistakes - often involving demons or blood magic. Merrill's about as close to a positive as you get for an elven mage. We don't see enough of Minaeve to make a judgment, frankly, and the fact she was still an apprentice suggests she would probably have been made tranquil herself eventually. Zathrian's first (whose name escapes me) suspected he was behind the werewolves' curse, but otherwise, she might actually be the exception to the rule.

 

And yes, there are human mages who haven't done the sort of things that the elven mages have - Wynne, Dorian, Vivienne, Irving, others. Not perfect, but nothing to bring out the mobs with pitchforks other than being mages by itself.

 

I still argue that mages pose no more threat than rulers and powerful nobles and the Chantry itself...

[CuriousArtemis]

And yes, there are human mages who haven't done the sort of things that the elven mages have - Wynne, Dorian, Vivienne, Irving, others. Not perfect, but nothing to bring out the mobs with pitchforks other than being mages by itself.

 

Not magically speaking, but that's a list of some horrifyingly flawed people...

 

Also Wynne? She pretty much did the same thing Anders did, only she got lucky

 

But I think this is an interesting premise; why do elven mages always push the boundaries of magic? If it's non-Dalish mages we're talking about, it could be related to the fact that an elven mage is literally the most oppressed person on the planet (excluding elven slaves in Tevinter, of course). Desperate people do desperate things. As for the Dalish, maybe it is related to their "looser" and more carefree relationship with magic? By the way I would argue that Merrill is one of the worst of the bunch, thinking she could so easily handle a pride demon, and it DID result in the death of her entire clan (I mean if Hawke chooses the appropriate dialogue choice; how nice that a dialogue choice can save or devastate an entire clan haha)

 

Interesting that so many elven characters are mages; they are an oppressed people, maybe that's one to write them with some small bit of agency. But also it's one of the few places that even allows elves to have agency... no elven priests, templars, guards, etc. Sucks to be an elf in Thedas lol

 

I think you missed what I was trying to say about Solas but no worries

[CuriousArtemis]

I think it is good that we've got so many crazy mages. Otherwise, the templars vs mages choice would be even more ridiculously easy than it already is.

People's first instinct already is to side with the oppressed. But the threat often posed by mages in the franchise can at least appeal to the player's pragmatic side.

 

Yeah that's a good point, too. 

 

Yet despite all that I admit I squint a little at people who argue that templars and Circles are actually a good idea. (Not at people who make those choices in the game; it's just a game. Even so, i never could support the templars in DA2; the game made that really hard to do. "You're right, Meredith, let's f***ing slaughter everyone in here because MY OWN FRIEND (not a Circle mage) just blew up the Chantry.")

[Xilizhra]

Not really. It's not like she agrees with performing the rite of tranquility.

Minaeve's point in the rest of the conversation is that their condition is no reason to forget that they're still people.

Horribly, horribly mutilated people. It's virtually the same thing as preferring the company of a zombie to a living human because the former is quieter.

[Tishina]

Not magically speaking, but that's a list of some horrifyingly flawed people...

 

Also Wynne? She pretty much did the same thing Anders did, only she got lucky

 

But I think this is an interesting premise; why do elven mages always push the boundaries of magic? If it's non-Dalish mages we're talking about, it could be related to the fact that an elven mage is literally the most oppressed person on the planet (excluding elven slaves in Tevinter, of course). Desperate people do desperate things. As for the Dalish, maybe it is related to their "looser" and more carefree relationship with magic? By the way I would argue that Merrill is one of the worst of the bunch, thinking she could so easily handle a pride demon, and it DID result in the death of her entire clan (I mean if Hawke chooses the appropriate dialogue choice; how nice that a dialogue choice can save or devastate an entire clan haha)

 

Interesting that so many elven characters are mages; they are an oppressed people, maybe that's one to write them with some small bit of agency. But also it's one of the few places that even allows elves to have agency... no elven priests, templars, guards, etc. Sucks to be an elf in Thedas lol

 

I think you missed what I was trying to say about Solas but no worries

I meant more in terms of how the anti-mage crowd of Thedas will see him. Another dangerous elven mage. Worse, one of the Dalish's gods trying to destroy the world, no less. With magic.

 

I don't know if I agree that Wynne just got lucky. She had faith, not justice, and had come to terms with her life in ways Anders never had. Since virtually no one knew it, she would never be an example of the "dangerous bad mage." I'm actually not a particularly big Wynne fan; I found her pretty annoying and preachy on some of my playthroughs. And I was being polite about Merrill since she has a lot of fans (and not having played DA2, I get the impression Marethari is at least as much to blame?)

 

I know it makes it easier to have two sides in game without one overtly being the "bad" guys to have seriously flawed mages. But I have huge issues with creating groups (i.e. mages and elves) who are treated horribly simply for existing and are then written to "deserve" that treatment by being treacherous or dangerously foolish or untrustworthy. Victim blaming is an easy out for creating "grey" situations and reinforces the idea that oppressed people only get what they deserve, sigh. And elven mages, in particular, apparently are all fatally flawed by definition and don't possess the normal range of characters, wise to foolish, etc.

[Qun00]

Why? Should one's unfortunate circumstances warrant a free pass to do whatever one wishes to?

Sympathy where it's needed and accountability for everything you do on your free will.

[CuriousArtemis]

I don't know if I agree that Wynne just got lucky. She had faith, not justice, and had come to terms with her life in ways Anders never had. Since virtually no one knew it, she would never be an example of the "dangerous bad mage." I'm actually not a particularly big Wynne fan; I found her pretty annoying and preachy on some of my playthroughs. And I was being polite about Merrill since she has a lot of fans (and not having played DA2, I get the impression Marethari is at least as much to blame?)

 

I think it's kind of left up to the player? The way I always interpreted it was, Merrill believed she was strong enough and smart enough to handle this pride demon... which is literally a textbook case of giving in to your PRIDE... and Marethari ultimately felt she had to step in and sacrifice herself in place of Merrill. However I guess it's probably not very clear what really happened. But I've always liked Merrill as a character because she has that deep flaw within her, that she has a great deal of confidence and pride in her abilities despite being so young, and while that is admirable (and makes her quite cute lol) it's also a serious handicap.

 

About Wynne, I'm quite fine with her as a character; I only resented having to use her instead of Morrigan because she had heals

 

I know it makes it easier to have two sides in game without one overtly being the "bad" guys to have seriously flawed mages. But I have huge issues with creating groups (i.e. mages and elves) who are treated horribly simply for existing and are then written to "deserve" that treatment by being treacherous or dangerously foolish or untrustworthy. Victim blaming is an easy out for creating "grey" situations and reinforces the idea that oppressed people only get what they deserve, sigh. And elven mages, in particular, apparently are all fatally flawed by definition and don't possess the normal range of characters, wise to foolish, etc.

 

Yeah, same. I never bought into it. Then again I live in a country where people can legally walk around with AK-47s, so. Magic doesn't kill people, people with magic kill people... 

 

It's a good thing it's so late because otherwise R2 would be rushing in here and bopping us on the head for talking about the mage/templar debate

[R2s Muse]

It's a good thing it's so late because otherwise R2 would be rushing in here and bopping us on the head for talking about the mage/templar debate

LOL I was gonna say . . .