138845 réponses à ce sujet

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Welcome back

Arty! Thanks! *hugs* Good to see you back here, too.

Hey, welcome back! You do know a few of us (or I hope you remember us; I replaced my glaring dwarf profile with one Cerulione did of one of my Suranas) How are things in your part of the world? And yes, he is rather distracting, though I rather liked the ramen noodle hair myself

Thank you! And of course I remember those of you who were posting when I was. Missed you guys. Life has been really busy but I have a week off work so I've gone into ultimate geek mode, lol.

And I agree, the noodle hair was most adorable. It looked more fun to play with. In fact, I just had noodles for lunch and they were delicious.

Hey, you!

Have a Cullen and stay a while.

Hey! Well, if you're going to throw Cullen's at me then I'm not going to say no.

How is everyone? I hope life's treating you all well.

[Tishina]

World of Thedas Vol 2 also reveals that as the de facto Knight-Commander after Meredith's death, Cullen not only rallied the Templars to protect the city from rebelling mages and demons, but helped coordinate relief and reconstruction efforts along with the Kirkwall Guard in order to bring some semblance of stability back to the city over the next two years.

 

Cullen working with Aveline is probably why he refers to her as an "old friend" if you follow his suggestion to let the Kirkwall guard capture and interrogate Worthy during the later the "Hard in Hightown" war table missions. As well as why Cullen is the only one to support helping Aveline organise a resistance to prevent Sebastian from annexing Kirkwall (if Anders is still alive).

 

Turns out that Cullen did a lot and took multiple levels in awesome during the period between DA2 and DAI.

I've always felt like, since I still haven't played DA2, that I have a somewhat fragmented impression of him in Kirkwall, mostly because I don't have any good sense of how long after Kinloch he says any one line, other than the end of the game. For all his trauma, though, I know he speaks of an Amell mage admiringly (and presumably he felt the same about a Surana, but only mentioned Amell because of the relationship to the Hawke family.) At times, the things he says seem to be an attempt to convince himself.

 

I actually have no difficulty in believing that abuses could be going on that Cullen didn't know about or only heard vague rumors but couldn't find anyone who'd talk. Silence due to the victims being terrified to speak is the very essence of how abuse thrives in these situations, especially when power is so starkly unbalanced. Victims have to feel safe to talk, and with Meredith in command, what would be the point? She would never believe a mage over a Templar, and she was known to use the brand as a punishment. Even if she didn't punish the mage, she wouldn't have punished the Templar involved, or if she did, it would be a slap on the wrist. Then the mage would have faced retaliation and possibly worse abuse by his or her abuser. Even if by a vanishing chance, Meredith removed the Templar, the odds are the victim would have faced retaliation from the Templar's remaining buddies. I think it's much more likely for a victim to lie if Cullen asked than for one to admit to abuse. That's how abuse works.

[Ghost Gal]

World of Thedas Vol 2 also reveals that as the de facto Knight-Commander after Meredith's death, Cullen not only rallied the Templars to protect the city from rebelling mages and demons, but helped coordinate relief and reconstruction efforts along with the Kirkwall Guard in order to bring some semblance of stability back to the city over the next two years.

 

Cullen working with Aveline is probably why he refers to her as an "old friend" if you follow his suggestion to let the Kirkwall guard capture and interrogate Worthy during the later the "Hard in Hightown" war table missions. As well as why Cullen is the only one to support helping Aveline organise a resistance to prevent Sebastian from annexing Kirkwall (if Anders is still alive).

 

Turns out that Cullen did a lot and took multiple levels in awesome during the period between DA2 and DAI.

 

That's... actually really, really good to know. I wish I'd known this sooner. Somehow, it gives me a lot more peace of mind.

 

See, this is why I don't like the half-arsed way BioWare handled his past in DAI. They half-heartedly acknowledge and dismiss his long track record helping Meredith, but then don't reveal the work he's done in the years (three years, but still) since then to make up for it. I understand why Cullen himself wouldn't go into it in-game, as he's too humble, but it would have been nice if other characters mention it. Granted, he tells you in your first one-on-one conversation that he was there "during the mage uprising," but that was during DA2's climax and the timeline shortly thereafter. I kind of rolled my eyes and thought, "Putting down those uppity mages and stuffing them back into Circles, no doubt."

 

This is far better than I imagined.

 

...which is why I really wonder at Cullen just up and leaving the templars and the city to their own devices once Cass came a'callin'. I think there's a sliver of truth in Samson's story about leaving the templars without orders. It's probably part of the story we'll apparently  never hear about why he wasn't promoted to commander if he let pro-mage Hawke go. :half-hearted fume: 

 

I hate to be "that person," but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think Cassandra started the Inquisition and recruited him very recently. It's possible that Kirkwall isn't quite the hot mess it had been in the three years prior. Cassandra even tells Varric at one point, in party banter, that she's heard the reconstruction efforts in Kirkwall are going very well. While Varric does snap that the buildings are doing better while people don't recover as easily, it's possible he's talking more like lingering emotional scars rather than continued riots, fighting, or attacks. I'd like to give Cullen the benefit of the doubt and think that he felt Kirkwall was stable enough now that it didn't need him to be there to personally oversee it anymore, and he could entrust it to his soon-to-be-ex-fellow Templars (especially a few trusted higher ranks) to help things along, while he dealt with the bigger hot mess that was the global-wide Mage/Templar War.

 

I've always felt like, since I still haven't played DA2, that I have a somewhat fragmented impression of him in Kirkwall, mostly because I don't have any good sense of how long after Kinloch he says any one line, other than the end of the game. For all his trauma, though, I know he speaks of an Amell mage admiringly (and presumably he felt the same about a Surana, but only mentioned Amell because of the relationship to the Hawke family.) At times, the things he says seem to be an attempt to convince himself.

 

I actually have no difficulty in believing that abuses could be going on that Cullen didn't know about or only heard vague rumors but couldn't find anyone who'd talk. Silence due to the victims being terrified to speak is the very essence of how abuse thrives in these situations, especially when power is so starkly unbalanced. Victims have to feel safe to talk, and with Meredith in command, what would be the point? She would never believe a mage over a Templar, and she was known to use the brand as a punishment. Even if she didn't punish the mage, she wouldn't have punished the Templar involved, or if she did, it would be a slap on the wrist. Then the mage would have faced retaliation and possibly worse abuse by his or her abuser. Even if by a vanishing chance, Meredith removed the Templar, the odds are the victim would have faced retaliation from the Templar's remaining buddies. I think it's much more likely for a victim to lie if Cullen asked than for one to admit to abuse. That's how abuse works.

 

You make a really solid point, but still... he didn't find it odd that there were all these "rumors" and mages living in terror and many openly @ssholish Templars (who may or may not have been "rumored" to hurt mages) who could away with murder under Meredith's strict regime? As someone close to Meredith herself, he didn't find it off that she herself was excessively harsh with mages but excessively permissive to Templars who never got investigated for "rumors" of crimes against humanity or disciplined on the rare off-chance that it did happen, and... oh, whatever.

 

Then again, this was from the same game where no one thought to question Aveline saying of the elven brothers who accused one of her guards of raping their sister, "There are rumors, I'll look into them." No one ever thought to say, "Aveline, WTF??!! This is how abuse is allowed to happen! This is why elves are joining the Qunari in droves! You're part of the problem!"

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

You make a really solid point, but still... he didn't find it odd that there were all these "rumors" and mages living in terror and many openly @ssholish Templars (who may or may not have been "rumored" to hurt mages) who could away with murder under Meredith's strict regime? As someone close to Meredith herself, he didn't find it off that she herself was excessively harsh with mages but excessively permissive to Templars who never got investigated for "rumors" of crimes against humanity or disciplined on the rare off-chance that it did happen, and... oh, whatever.

Then again, this was from the same game where no one thought to question Aveline saying of the elven brothers who accused one of her guards of raping their sister, "There are rumors, I'll look into them." No one ever thought to say, "Aveline, WTF??!! This is how abuse is allowed to happen! This is why elves are joining the Qunari in droves! You're part of the problem!"

At that point in time Cullen didn't think Meredith was overly harsh, still trying to work through what happened at Kinloch and all. It wasn't until Act 3 that he even started to question her methods and by then she was way beyond corrupted by the idol. It was no longer about keeping the citizens safe from mages and mages safe from citizens and I think he had worked through enough of his trauma to see what was happening was wrong.

He is very much "by the book" kind of guy though, chain of command was and still is important to him. If he did investigate (*smacks Cullen upside the head* you did investigate, right, noodle-head?) the rumours, I doubt he would have gotten very far unless he was willing to step out of line earlier on in the game.

Neither the Templars or mages would have been forth coming. Not every Templar in Kirkwall was bad and I doubt that the ones that were abusive didn't just go around doing it for everyone to see. And as Tish said, it's how abuse works. Not only are the victims afraid of speaking up because there is a chance that they will be even more punished if they do, but the entire situation, for the victim, is shameful and embarrassing (even though it's not). Being abused is a very hard thing to admit to whether it be physical, emotional or mental.

I don't doubt that Cullen did his job but he is just one man and without people speaking up if he investigated, there really wouldnt be much he'd be able to do.

Does this make sense? I hate doing this on my phone. They give you the tiniest box to write in.

[R2s Muse]

I hate to be "that person," but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think Cassandra started the Inquisition and recruited him very recently. It's possible that Kirkwall isn't quite the hot mess it had been in the three years prior. Cassandra even tells Varric at one point, in party banter, that she's heard the reconstruction efforts in Kirkwall are going very well. While Varric does snap that the buildings are doing better while people don't recover as easily, it's possible he's talking more like lingering emotional scars rather than continued riots, fighting, or attacks. I'd like to give Cullen the benefit of the doubt and think that he felt Kirkwall was stable enough now that it didn't need him to be there to personally oversee it anymore, and he could entrust it to his soon-to-be-ex-fellow Templars (especially a few trusted higher ranks) to help things along, while he dealt with the bigger hot mess that was the global-wide Mage/Templar War.

Sure, we can imagine all sorts of things, and given the type of guy he is, he probably did something he thought was sensible. My point is that it's not explained, and what is explicitly mentioned paints him in a negative light. It's too easy to just say "oh, Samson lies," since that's the only real account we have of what happened in Kirkwall just before the game. Something odd happened with the templar succession there, esp given the patchy explanations of why Viscount Hawke left as well. There are just too many questions about what happened between games that haven't been answered.

[Sifr]

That's... actually really, really good to know. I wish I'd known this sooner. Somehow, it gives me a lot more peace of mind.

 

See, this is why I don't like the half-arsed way BioWare handled his past in DAI. They half-heartedly acknowledge and dismiss his long track record helping Meredith, but then don't reveal the work he's done in the years (three years, but still) since then to make up for it. I understand why Cullen himself wouldn't go into it in-game, as he's too humble, but it would have been nice if other characters mention it. Granted, he tells you in your first one-on-one conversation that he was there "during the mage uprising," but that was during DA2's climax and the timeline shortly thereafter. I kind of rolled my eyes and thought, "Putting down those uppity mages and stuffing them back into Circles, no doubt."

 

This is far better than I imagined.

 

I hate to be "that person," but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think Cassandra started the Inquisition and recruited him very recently. It's possible that Kirkwall isn't quite the hot mess it had been in the three years prior. Cassandra even tells Varric at one point, in party banter, that she's heard the reconstruction efforts in Kirkwall are going very well. While Varric does snap that the buildings are doing better while people don't recover as easily, it's possible he's talking more like lingering emotional scars rather than continued riots, fighting, or attacks. I'd like to give Cullen the benefit of the doubt and think that he felt Kirkwall was stable enough now that it didn't need him to be there to personally oversee it anymore, and he could entrust it to his soon-to-be-ex-fellow Templars (especially a few trusted higher ranks) to help things along, while he dealt with the bigger hot mess that was the global-wide Mage/Templar War.

 

Since some here haven't played DA2 or might not own World of Thedas Vol 2, here's an excerpt from Cullen's entry, dealing with the lead up to the Kirkwall rebellion, the aftermath and his eventual recruitment by Cassandra into the Inquisition;

 

Spoiler

After several years as Meredith's second-in-command, he was beginning to question the blind loyalty with which he had followed her. Relations between the city's Mages and Templars were growing worse. More and more, the Templars confided their own slips in performance to him, fearing of the punishments that Meredith gave for even minor infractions. While still ill at ease around large groups of mages, he was starting to notice the tension and the fear that filled the eyes of his charges. It was a fear reminiscent of his own and it troubled him. These were the people he'd sworn to protect. Meanwhile, Meredith had become more guarded and evasive when questioned, expecting his devotion.

 

When the apostate Anders blew up Kirkwall's Chantry, Cullen watched another Circle fall around him. This time the fighting went beyond the Circle, spilling into the streets of Kirkwall. Once again, he fought alongside the Templars in order to regain control. However when Meredith's actions threatened the lives of those around her, he could no longer ignore her actions. Siding with the Champion, Cullen stood against the Knight-Commander.

 

Stories of Kirkwall's mage rebellion tend to end with the deaths of First Enchanter Orsino and Knight-Commander Meredith - but that was not the end for those living there. Large sections of the city had been physically damaged during the conflict. Beyond that, the people of Kirkwall were angry and frightened. Mages - for years the only threat that Cullen could see - faced the real possibilty of being mobbed by those seeking vengeance. With Meredith gone, the Templars were leaderless and, as he was forced to admit, potentially dangerous. He rallied the Templars to begin repairs on the Gallows and ensure the protection of the loyalists mages who continued to reside within. He coordinated with the city guard, lending aid to relief efforts around the city. For over two years, Cullen effectively lead the Templar Order in Kirkwall, bringing some stability to the struggling city.

 

Since he had been eight years old, Cullen's life had been a headlong sprint in one direction. It was a course, once set, that could not be altered. Or so he can come to accept.

 

Seeker Cassandra Pentaghast and Sister Leliana, the Right and Left Hands of the Divine had come to Kirkwall a few years after the rebellion. It was then that Cassandra met Cullen. Impressed by his integrity and what he had accomplished since Meredith's death, Cassandra offered him a position in what would become the Inquisition.

 

"I do not care where you have faltered - only that you stand here now," she said. "But this is not an order. The choice is yours".

 

It wasn't long before Cullen once again found himself on the Waking Sea, this time on a ship bound for Ferelden along with Cassandra and her prisoner, Varric Tethras. As Cullen still refused to spend more time below decks than was necessary, Varric often found him staring at the ocean.

 

"Kirkwall had disappeared by that point," Varric recalled. I asked him if he was ready to leave. He thought for a moment, then said "All of it". I told him that Ferelden might not be better. He said, "I was there during the Blight and the Circle..." and then he actually somewhat smiled. "It can't be worse".

 

"You know, for a first attempt at optimism, it wasn't bad."

 

(Phew, that small extract took forever to transcribe)

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Sure, we can imagine all sorts of things, and given the type of guy he is, he probably did something he thought was sensible. My point is that it's not explained, and what is explicitly mentioned paints him in a negative light. It's too easy to just say "oh, Samson lies," since that's the only real account we have of what happened in Kirkwall just before the game. Something odd happened with the templar succession there, esp given the patchy explanations of why Viscount Hawke left as well. There are just too many questions about what happened between games that haven't been answered.

Too many things happened off-screen, which I've always been vexed about. It all just becomes an unreliable narrative because all the information we get comes from a handful of people's POV instead being able to play through it firsthand. The 'he said she said' is never going to be satisfying and will always leave us with more questions than answers and what ifs.

I mean it's fun and all battering it about but also kind of disappointing when you never get that conclusion.

[R2s Muse]

Since some here haven't played DA2 or might not own World of Thedas Vol 2, here's an excerpt from Cullen's entry, dealing with the lead up to the Kirkwall rebellion, the aftermath and his eventual recruitment by Cassandra into the Inquisition;
 

Spoiler

After several years as Meredith's second-in-command, he was beginning to question the blind loyalty with which he had followed her. Relations between the city's Mages and Templars were growing worse. More and more, the Templars confided their own slips in performance to him, fearing of the punishments that Meredith gave for even minor infractions. While still ill at ease around large groups of mages, he was starting to notice the tension and the fear that filled the eyes of his charges. It was a fear reminiscent of his own and it troubled him. These were the people he'd sworn to protect. Meanwhile, Meredith had become more guarded and evasive when questioned, expecting his devotion.
 
When the apostate Anders blew up Kirkwall's Chantry, Cullen watched another Circle fall around him. This time the fighting went beyond the Circle, spilling into the streets of Kirkwall. Once again, he fought alongside the Templars in order to regain control. However when Meredith's actions threatened the lives of those around her, he could no longer ignore her actions. Siding with the Champion, Cullen stood against the Knight-Commander.
 
Stories of Kirkwall's mage rebellion tend to end with the deaths of First Enchanter Orsino and Knight-Commander Meredith - but that was not the end for those living there. Large sections of the city had been physically damaged during the conflict. Beyond that, the people of Kirkwall were angry and frightened. Mages - for years the only threat that Cullen could see - faced the real possibilty of being mobbed by those seeking vengeance. With Meredith gone, the Templars were leaderless and, as he was forced to admit, potentially dangerous. He rallied the Templars to begin repairs on the Gallows and ensure the protection of the loyalists mages who continued to reside within. He coordinated with the city guard, lending aid to relief efforts around the city. For over two years, Cullen effectively lead the Templar Order in Kirkwall, bringing some stability to the struggling city.
 
Since he had been eight years old, Cullen's life had been a headlong sprint in one direction. It was a course, once set, that could not be altered. Or so he can come to accept.
 
Seeker Cassandra Pentaghast and Sister Leliana, the Right and Left Hands of the Divine had come to Kirkwall a few years after the rebellion. It was then that Cassandra met Cullen. Impressed by his integrity and what he had accomplished since Meredith's death, Cassandra offered him a position in what would become the Inquisition.
 
"I do not care where you have faltered - only that you stand here now," she said. "But this is not an order. The choice is yours".
 
It wasn't long before Cullen once again found himself on the Waking Sea, this time on a ship bound for Ferelden along with Cassandra and her prisoner, Varric Tethras. As Cullen still refused to spend more time below decks than was necessary, Varric often found him staring at the ocean.
 
"Kirkwall had disappeared by that point," Varric recalled. I asked him if he was ready to leave. He thought for a moment, then said "All of it". I told him that Ferelden might not be better. He said, "I was there during the Blight and the Circle..." and then he actually somewhat smiled. "It can't be worse".
 
"You know, for a first attempt at optimism, it wasn't bad."

 
(Phew, that small extract took forever to transcribe)

Aw sweetie, or...
 
http://i1121.photobu...op.jpg~original
 
http://i1121.photobu...op.jpg~original
 
http://i1121.photobu...-1.png~original
 
http://i1121.photobu...26.jpg~original
 
http://i1121.photobu...-1.png~original

 

[Tishina]

At that point in time Cullen didn't think Meredith was overly harsh, still trying to work through what happened at Kinloch and all. It wasn't until Act 3 that he even started to question her methods and by then she was way beyond corrupted by the idol. It was no longer about keeping the citizens safe from mages and mages safe from citizens and I think he had worked through enough of his trauma to see what was happening was wrong.

He is very much "by the book" kind of guy though, chain of command was and still is important to him. If he did investigate (*smacks Cullen upside the head* you did investigate, right, noodle-head?) the rumours, I doubt he would have gotten very far unless he was willing to step out of line earlier on in the game.

Neither the Templars or mages would have been forth coming. Not every Templar in Kirkwall was bad and I doubt that the ones that were abusive didn't just go around doing it for everyone to see. And as Tish said, it's how abuse works. Not only are the victims afraid of speaking up because there is a chance that they will be even more punished if they do, but the entire situation, for the victim, is shameful and embarrassing (even though it's not). Being abused is a very hard thing to admit to whether it be physical, emotional or mental.

I don't doubt that Cullen did his job but he is just one man and without people speaking up if he investigated, there really wouldnt be much he'd be able to do.

Does this make sense? I hate doing this on my phone. They give you the tiniest box to write in.

Here, here! Perfect sense. Add to that that Cullen was an outsider (Fereldan and not even from another Marcher city) who was promoted over the heads of the local Templars. That's going to add resentment from the Templars and distrust as an outsider by Templars, mages, and any locals or mage relatives and stopped them from whispering the rumors to him. I doubt he heard many whispers, and none of those probably had enough substance to investigate.

 

Ironically, the inevitable questions by people who've never been in that situation help keep abuse victims silent. "why didn't they report it?" "Why didn't they leave?" "why didn't they fight back?" Abusers count on exactly that attitude. Victims are ashamed, embarrassed, unsure who they can trust or who will accuse them of lying, of who will actually help or who will blame them, etc. It's only when they feel they'll be safe, that they'll be believed that victims might speak up. And I can't imagine any mage in the Gallows feeling safe...

[Sifr]

I remember that there were screenshots from the book that were posted on the thread around sometime last year... but between sifting through the 55-hundred odd pages and transcribing one page in 15 minutes, I decided to go with my talents as a fast typer!

[R2s Muse]

Too many things happened off-screen, which I've always been vexed about. It all just becomes an unreliable narrative because all the information we get comes from a handful of people's POV instead being able to play through it firsthand. The 'he said she said' is never going to be satisfying and will always leave us with more questions than answers and what ifs.

I mean it's fun and all battering it about but also kind of disappointing when you never get that conclusion.

Yeah, in this case, there's just also so little to go on that any speculation is pretty much baseless. I mean, if he was never promoted to commander... then who the heck was knight-commander in that case?? Did the Order just ignore Kirkwall for 2+ years? Was there someone appointed in Kirkwall who just never did his/her job? Or a figurehead off in distant Val Royeaux? Or did the Order leave the position vacant as a 'frak you' to pro-mage-Hawke-sympathizing Cullen while he did the job anyway? Or was the Order so disorganized with all the circle uprisings and whatnot that they never got around to appointing someone in Kirkwall? One could imagine that when Cullen left, the actual commander, if there was one, was supposed to be in charge. Or maybe Cullen left someone else unofficially in charge like he was.

 

But, in playthroughs where Cullen was officially commander, you'd think he'd wait for or arrange for a replacement or something equivalent if he were to step down. The fact that Cassandra points out that she isn't ordering him to join her makes his transition sound Chantry-sanctioned, so perhaps there was some sort of transition plan in place. It just makes it sound like Kirkwall was the wild wild west after Act 3. 

 

Anyhoo, we also know there must be a story there, since the writers made the choice to have him promoted/not promoted. I just wish they'd tell us what it was. 

[R2s Muse]

I remember that there were screenshots from the book that were posted on the thread around sometime last year... but between sifting through the 55-hundred odd pages and transcribing one page in 15 minutes, I decided to go with my talents as a fast typer!

 

 

 
Sorry, for me, my superpower seems to be a mental index of the thread. Plus, these screenshots are in my photobucket.   

[Sifr]

With how the Chantry, the rest of the Order and the Seekers were apparently willing to let Meredith exceed her authority, prevent a replacement Viscount from being appointed and instead practice quasi-martial law over the city-state for three years... I'm starting to wonder if the mantra that the rest of Thedas has about Kirkwall is something along the lines of;

 

"Ignore it, hope the problem there goes away on it's own... and pray to the Maker nothing ends up on fire again"

[Tishina]

 

 

 
Sorry, for me, my superpower seems to be a mental index of the thread. Plus, these screenshots are in my photobucket.   

I have to admit, I'm always amazed at how quickly you can locate and post something that was discussed for 10 minutes 6 months ago. Definitely qualifies as a superpower.

[R2s Muse]

With how the Chantry, the rest of the Order and the Seekers were apparently willing to let Meredith exceed her authority, prevent a replacement Viscount from being appointed and instead practice quasi-martial law over the city-state for three years... I'm starting to wonder if the mantra that the rest of Thedas has about Kirkwall is something along the lines of;

 

"Ignore it, hope the problem there goes away on it's own... and pray to the Maker nothing ends up on fire again"

Yeah, it does seem that way, doesn't it? Like, on one hand it can be handwaved as decentralized and lacking technology and so alas, to paraphrase Jesus Christ Superstar, "Thedas in 9:30 had no mass communication" and Kirkwall was on its own.  And YET! Blood writing! Sending stones! Ravens! Insta-messaging existed. 

 

Sadly, I'll bet the real answer for the Kirkwall aftermath is that it's just as plot-holey as DA2 due to haste/etc. I mean... it's still weird that Cassandra, as right hand of the Divine, knew so little about what really happened in Kirkwall. When she first starting talking to Varric, she thought Hawke had come from Ferelden with her merry band of terrorists to bring down Meredith and the Gallows. So clearly neither she nor any source she had consulted had talked to Cullen at that point. Which continues to baffle me. And yes, I know that few people have spent quite as much time as I have thinking about exactly who knew what and when during that time, so... oh well. 

[R2s Muse]

I have to admit, I'm always amazed at how quickly you can locate and post something that was discussed for 10 minutes 6 months ago. Definitely qualifies as a superpower.

LOL There are definitely better superpowers to have ... 

[Tishina]

LOL There are definitely better superpowers to have ... 

I dunno, an ability to locate obscure information in a fraction of the time of other people isn't anything to sneeze at in an information age...

[Sifr]

Yeah, it does seem that way, doesn't it? Like, on one hand it can be handwaved as decentralized and lacking technology and so alas, to paraphrase Jesus Christ Superstar, "Thedas in 9:30 had no mass communication" and Kirkwall was on its own.  And YET! Blood writing! Sending stones! Ravens! Insta-messaging existed. 

 

Sadly, I'll bet the real answer for the Kirkwall aftermath is that it's just as plot-holey as DA2 due to haste/etc. I mean... it's still weird that Cassandra, as right hand of the Divine, knew so little about what really happened in Kirkwall. When she first starting talking to Varric, she thought Hawke had come from Ferelden with her merry band of terrorists to bring down Meredith and the Gallows. So clearly neither she nor any source she had consulted had talked to Cullen at that point. Which continues to baffle me. And yes, I know that few people have spent quite as much time as I have thinking about exactly who knew what and when during that time, so... oh well. 

 

Maybe after being Meredith's right hand man for all those years, Cassandra thought that Cullen might spout the company line, so she elected to instead interrogate Varric first to get his account of what happened, then match it up to what Cullen's own account.

 

Even though Varric isn't a reliable narrator, I think Cass has more grounds to threaten him into keeping his story more or less truthful than she could get away with if she tried to pull rank and interrogate Cullen in that manner to get the truth from him. That Cullen doesn't seem to have sugarcoated anything seems to have been the reason she eventually came to believe most of Varric's account as being true.

 

Cassandra commenting when she offered the job to Cullen about not caring where he might have faltered, makes me think he told her everything and freely admitted his own failures, such as not seeing Meredith for what she was until it was nearly too late.

 

Between the bang up job he did keeping Kirkwall stable, his honesty when questioned and that despite all his bad experiences he still retained the ideals of the order when most Templars were now set on abandoning them... that was why Cassandra chose him to serve as the leader of the Inquisition.

[R2s Muse]

Maybe after being Meredith's right hand man for all those years, Cassandra thought that Cullen might spout the company line, so she elected to instead interrogate Varric first to get his account of what happened, then match it up to what Cullen's own account.

 

Even though Varric isn't a reliable narrator, I think Cass has more grounds to threaten him into keeping his story more or less truthful than she could get away with if she tried to pull rank and interrogate Cullen in that manner to get the truth from him. That Cullen doesn't seem to have sugarcoated anything seems to have been the reason she eventually came to believe most of Varric's account as being true.

 

Cassandra commenting when she offered the job to Cullen about not caring where he might have faltered, makes me think he told her everything and freely admitted his own failures, such as not seeing Meredith for what she was until it was nearly too late.

 

Between the bang up job he did keeping Kirkwall stable, his honesty when questioned and that despite all his bad experiences he still retained the ideals of the order when most Templars were now set on abandoning them... that was why Cassandra chose him to serve as the leader of the Inquisition.

Cullen's honesty, though, makes it even more baffling because this is three years later. In three years, no one asked what happened in Kirkwall?

 

It actually would make sense why Cassandra, in 9:40, chose to talk to Varric before Cullen, since initially she was looking for Hawke, not seeking to set the story straight. For all she knew, the story she had was correct and she's just searching for what happened to Hawke next.

 

What's weird is that someone higher up in Cullen's chain of command like Cassandra didn't already know before coming to Kirkwall what Cullen had to say. He must have reported what happened. To someone in the Order or the Chantry. Someone in Val Royeaux must have an account somewhere of what the de facto leader of the templars in Kirkwall, who was an eye witness to Meredith's downfall, said about what happened. If Cassandra is researching Hawke, you'd think she'd start there. But she's clueless. So either she didn't read it/find it, or she did look into it, and the account was inaccurate. Or she read it and didn't believe it. I could make a case for all of those. And have. But they were all easier to argue before we found out that Cullen had been in Kirkwall the whole time, still a templar, part of the leadership, and still no one outside of Kirkwall knew what happened. 

 

But I agree with you; he clearly must have fully come clean to Cassandra, which is a good way for them to start their collaboration. 

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Here, here! Perfect sense. Add to that that Cullen was an outsider (Fereldan and not even from another Marcher city) who was promoted over the heads of the local Templars. That's going to add resentment from the Templars and distrust as an outsider by Templars, mages, and any locals or mage relatives and stopped them from whispering the rumors to him. I doubt he heard many whispers, and none of those probably had enough substance to investigate.

Ironically, the inevitable questions by people who've never been in that situation help keep abuse victims silent. "why didn't they report it?" "Why didn't they leave?" "why didn't they fight back?" Abusers count on exactly that attitude. Victims are ashamed, embarrassed, unsure who they can trust or who will accuse them of lying, of who will actually help or who will blame them, etc. It's only when they feel they'll be safe, that they'll be believed that victims might speak up. And I can't imagine any mage in the Gallows feeling safe...

Oh yes, can't forget that he's a dog lord. It pretty much puts him in an impossible situation. But that's what makes me like his character so much. The respect and trust that he's earned by the end of DA2 was done by his own merit and growth as a person. It's not about making excuses for him, he's fundamentally flawed, absolutely not perfect and makes mistakes but he learns from that, puts himself back together where lesser willed people wouldn't and ultimately does the right thing.

I never disliked Cullen. I played DA2 before DAO and though I didn't agree with his stance on mages at the beginning I didn't rule him out and think he was nothing but rubbish. It was more of a "I'll keep my eye on you and see where this goes" kind of thing. Your Hawke can make him think, can get all those cogs turning his head.

Him doing what he does at the end of DA2 will always be the same, but if you choose the right dialogue options you can play it as Hawke having some influence on him. And after playing DAO and seeing what happens to him, when it all fits into place and makes perfect sense as to why he's the way he is, I think that's something he deserves. The benefit of the doubt. Someone helping him to get back to the man he once was but even better because of it all.

*steps away from my Cullen-shaped podium and clears throat*

Also, with the abuse, it doesn't help that mages have it drilled into them that they are subservient, that they are less. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them thought that they deserved the treatment that was handed out to them. It's manipulation at its finest from a very young age. Even without the physical abuse, if it was just mental and emotional, it can take someone years to realise that they're even being abused when it's done so masterfully, when they've been condition to it.

[Tishina]

Also, with the abuse, it doesn't help that mages have it drilled into them that they are subservient, that they are less. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them thought that they deserved the treatment that was handed out to them. It's manipulation at its finest from a very young age. Even without the physical abuse, if it was just mental and emotional, it can take someone years to realise that they're even being abused when it's done so masterfully, when they've been condition to it.

If you play a mage in DAO, there's an apprentice who says pretty much that. She loathes herself for being a mage and believes it's a punishment. In an ultimate irony, she's one of that small number of mage apprentices that Wynne managed to save when you return to Kinloch, sigh.

[Qun00]

Magic is a curse. An useful one, but still a curse. How would you like to be a constant target for demons?

[CuriousArtemis]

Magic is a curse. An useful one, but still a curse. How would you like to be a constant target for demons?

 

[Ghost Gal]

Magic is a curse. An useful one, but still a curse. How would you like to be a constant target for demons?

 

[Qun00]