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[vertigomez]

I couldn't resist putting a mage warden romancing Leliana in the Keep because I imagine some interesting awkward moments between Leliana and Cullen

Poor Cullen.

Spoiler

[Xilizhra]

Poor Cullen.

Spoiler

Forgive me, but that always came across to me as "damn creepazoid."

[vertigomez]

Forgive me, but that always came across to me as "damn creepazoid."

To each their own, but I never thought it was anything pervy. He just wanted to ask about her and didn't know how because he's... Cullen.

[Xilizhra]

To each their own, but I never thought it was anything pervy. He just wanted to ask about her and didn't know how because he's... Cullen.

I suppose part of it comes from the fact that he's still not over someone who (at least in my case) was never remotely interested... ten years ago.

[vertigomez]

I suppose part of it comes from the fact that he's still not over someone who (at least in my case) was never remotely interested... ten years ago.

Could just be nostalgia, like asking about a childhood crush. He makes it clear to the Inquisitor that what he felt for Amell/Surana was "youthful infatuation" and that he's over it.

[thats1evildude]

This is cute.

http://martini-septe...-Lady-619000193

[Tishina]

Next chapter, Saying Goodbye

 

Bitter Ale - AO3

Bitter Ale - FFN

[DreamerM]

Poor Cullen.

Spoiler

Does anyone know if this dialog happens if the Liliana Romanced Warden died fighting the Archdemon? I have to imagine not, that would be a hard thing for Liliana to talk about...

 

... I know Warden!Cullen is the OTP of a lot of players, but I always thought it was kinda awkward how quickly people latched on to it, considering how little of it we actually saw. I played that scene like she kinda thought he was a creeper... a NICE creeper, a creeper she likes, but still, when someone's introduction is a conversation about how glad they are they didn't have to murder you but they would totally have murdered you if they'd had to... Thanks Cullen, glad we had this talk.

[Spirit Vanguard]

...
... I know Warden!Cullen is the OTP of a lot of players, but I always thought it was kinda awkward how quickly people latched on to it, considering how little of it we actually saw. I played that scene like she kinda thought he was a creeper... a NICE creeper, a creeper she likes, but still, when someone's introduction is a conversation about how glad they are they didn't have to murder you but they would totally have murdered you if they'd had to... Thanks Cullen, glad we had this talk.

But that's just the nature of Cullen. He's awkward, says awkward stuff and some find that awkwardness endearing. There's also what he says to the Warden when doing the Circle quest in Origins... Sometimes the little things are bigger than they seem. Lamenting what never was...

[DreamerM]

But that's just the nature of Cullen. He's awkward, says awkward stuff and some find that awkwardness endearing.

Oh it's endearing. But that's why I actually think it reflects badly on your fmage!warden if you flirt with or pursue him romantically. He's clearly uncomfortable about the whole thing, and since he is fighting like hell to maintain his distance... at a certain point aren't you just tormenting him because you can? If he's dug in his heels and is determined NOT to act on his feelings, aren't you being kind of a bully if you don't respect his choices and constantly pushing against his boundaries? No wonder they used her form to torment him, in that case. That's not a nice thing to do to anybody. If I were him, I'd be unable even to LOOK at the female warden again after that, let alone remember her fondly as a "special woman," like he does in DA2. No means no.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Oh it's endearing. But that's why I actually think it reflects badly on your fmage!warden if you flirt with or pursue him romantically. He's clearly uncomfortable about the whole thing, and since he is fighting like hell to maintain his distance... at a certain point aren't you just tormenting him because you can? If he's dug in his heels and is determined NOT to act on his feelings, aren't you being kind of a bully if you don't respect his choices and constantly pushing against his boundaries? No wonder they used her form to torment him, in that case. That's not a nice thing to do to anybody. If I were him, I'd be unable even to LOOK at the female warden again after that, let alone remember her fondly as a "special woman," like he does in DA2. No means no.

 

No.

 

Considering we're only given like one chance to flirt with him, to which he runs away from, I don't think that constitutes as "bullying." If it was insistent pushing like with Samara in ME2, then I'd agree. Everything else that happens afterward is by his own mouth. When he's in the bubble the Warden doesn't/can't prompt or provoke him in any way about his feelings. We can tease him about it, but that's really it.

 

That he refers to it as "youthful infatuation" 10 years later in DAI means that he's over it but still has fond memories of her -- although I agree it's strange if the Warden was headcannoned to be a massive jerk. He (sort of) secretly held onto his feelings for her for so long, watching her from afar, that when she confronts him about it he understandably freaks out -- not only is she suggesting that she knows his big secret, but that she might feel similarly. He's young, as far as I know inexperienced in such matters, and doesn't know how to handle the situation that wouldn't happen even in his wildest dreams. Or maybe it has. We don't know what his thoughts about her were, for how long he had them or how strong they were.

 

In DAI if asked about anything happening between them, Cullen says something like "She was my charge. If she felt the same, I don't know..." which could imply that if there hadn't been restrictions in place maybe something could've happened.

 

He's continually awkward throughout his DAI romance but still expresses interest in the Inquisitor. He's grown up since Origins and is more liberated now than as a templar, but awkwardness is just part of who is.

[DreamerM]

No.

 

Considering we're only given like one chance to flirt with him, to which he runs away from, I don't think that constitutes as "bullying."

No, but lots of people head!cannon that out into more determined and long-lasting attempts to get with him. And he only runs away if you basically tell him, "hey, lets just go have sex!" which, considering his awkwardness, is the least surprising thing in the world. That's gonna scare almost anyone.

Seriously, to even start the flirting you have to do a "lets go...somewhere else" which sounds to me like Amell has sex on the mind moreso then romance. It just... I get that they are supposed to be in the 19-21 range and hormones are doing their thing, but I can't help but feel like that's predatory behavior, coming from someone in her position. She has more freedom then he does to express this side of herself, and definitely no one has ever told HER she might be ordered to kill him at any moment and don't you dare hesitate because that's when they strike. Is it really fair to demand this of him? It doesn't feel right to me.

[DreamerM]

In DAI if asked about anything happening between them, Cullen says something like "She was my charge. If she felt the same, I don't know..." which could imply that if there hadn't been restrictions in place maybe something could've happened.

That's key, in my mind. The Warden can throw sexual innuendos at him, (which makes him run away, really if your mission was to clear a Templar out of a place so you can have some time to yourself, that would do it) or she can make fun of him, but what she can't do is confess love for him. She can't even flirt with him in a way that isn't explicitly sexual. She can confess to a crush on JOWEN of all people, but Cullen? Nope.

This is why I can't get behind Warden!Cullen. That and I think it's sadder if the love was unrequited from the start. Really, it's very easy to play it like Warden is friendly with Cullen but not sexual, and not only does he not run away, he tells her she can come back and talk to him anytime.

You can also play it like Warden thinks Cullen was a huge creeper and was horrified and humiliated to find out her form was used in what was clearly sexual torture. This gives the Warden a whole other reason to hate what Ulrich has done, and to side against Cullen when he insists all the mages in the tower have to die. Shut up, you. You put me in a very awkward position. So shut up.

[Spirit Vanguard]

No, but lots of people head!cannon that out into more determined and long-lasting attempts to get with him. And he only runs away if you basically tell him, "hey, lets just go have sex!" which, considering his awkwardness, is the least surprising thing in the world. That's gonna scare almost anyone.

Seriously, to even start the flirting you have to do a "lets go...somewhere else" which sounds to me like Amell has sex on the mind moreso then romance. It just... I get that they are supposed to be in the 19-21 range and hormones are doing their thing, but I can't help but feel like that's predatory behavior, coming from someone in her position. She has more freedom then he does to express this side of herself, and definitely no one has ever told HER she might be ordered to kill him at any moment and don't you dare hesitate because that's when they strike. Is it really fair to demand this of him? It doesn't feel right to me.

 

The suggestion of sex is basically the flirt option. I would prefer something less forward, but that's the game.

 

Here I could argue that she doesn't, necessarily, and I think might support the sexual flirt. Mages in the Circle are greatly discouraged to engage in any intimate relations and are denied having a real relationship. It happens, but it's "not allowed" as Wynne more or less says, and Anders as well when he mentions that the templars use love as a means to control mages. So, if a mage is essentially forbidden to ever leave the tower and/or have a meaningful relationship even if they want to, it seems reasonable that they would lean more toward physical prospects. That Cullen is a templar makes it more complicated, but is also not unheard of.

 

"In the Ferelden Circle everyone was kissing everyone!" --Anders

 

"As if you can keep healthy men and women living together for years without anyone getting ideas." Enchanter Ellandra

 

Templars and mages are all just people, both living very restricted lives.

[Spirit Vanguard]

That's key, in my mind. The Warden can throw sexual innuendos at him, (which makes him run away, really if your mission was to clear a Templar out of a place so you can have some time to yourself, that would do it) or she can make fun of him, but what she can't do is confess love for him. She can't even flirt with him in a way that isn't explicitly sexual. She can confess to a crush on JOWEN of all people, but Cullen? Nope.

This is why I can't get behind Warden!Cullen. That and I think it's sadder if the love was unrequited from the start. Really, it's actually very easy to play it like Warden is friendly with Cullen but not sexual, and not only does he not run away, he tells her she can come back and talk to him anytime.

 

This goes with my above post.

 

And LOL

[VivainaDX]

I could get behind a warden/Cullen romance now that it's years later and they've both matured...I actually think it would be cute.

[DreamerM]

The suggestion of sex is basically the flirt option. I would prefer something less forward, but that's the game.

That's the thing though, and why I resist the urge to romanticize what could possibly have gone down between Cullen and MageWarden. I remember hearing somewhere that no one working on the game knew those few lines of dialog would end up making Cullen such an unexpectedly popular character, and the dialog MageWarden can have in response is clearly coming more from a place where this is just another complication, rather then a serious interest. Heck, the magewarden is so aggressive in this dialog it would be consistent for an extremely anti-Circle or generally psychotic Mage to be throwing bedroom eyes at what seems to be the weakest buffulo around, sexually speaking.

And I am generally frustrated by the "it's not approved of" when talking about Templar's having relations with anybody vs. Mages not being allowed to have relations at all. As Knight Commander Mormont said, if they really did kick everyone out of Castle Black who had snuck in some nookie on the side, they'd have no Nights Watch left on the Wall, so it's an open secret this stuff happens. Still, I think this made more sense when Templars were sworn to Chastity more generally, rather then relations just being "disapproved of." I still don't know what that really means in practice.

[VivainaDX]

I would say the meaning was cleared up when in Inquisition he commented that she was his charge and it was frowned upon. You also have to look at his age and mindset at the time, he was young, impressionable and had an innocent trusting view of the order, he's grown up since. He's seen things and he no longer lets the order dictate his every move. He's gained self-confidence and a new sense of purpose, he's more self-assured and understands life on a whole new level. I could see him being a bit shy at first, but if she's played as a girl still miffed over being rebuffed or ticked that her suggestion of them going elsewhere was misconstrued, it could work. Or she could even pretend she has no idea who he is and fake interest in someone else or everyone else but Cullen and it could get his dander up. It could be fun.  

[Spirit Vanguard]

That's the thing though, and why I resist the urge to romanticize what could possibly have gone down between Cullen and MageWarden. I remember hearing somewhere that no one working on the game knew those few lines of dialog would end up making Cullen such an unexpectedly popular character, and the dialog MageWarden can have in response is clearly coming more from a place where this is just another complication, rather then a serious interest. Heck, the magewarden is so aggressive in this dialog it would be consistent for an extremely anti-Circle or generally psychotic Mage to be throwing bedroom eyes at what seems to be the weakest buffulo around, sexually speaking.

 

I think it's apparent that Cullen gained unexpected popularity with Origins, but he ended up becoming a great character with an interesting story. I think the sex flirt was intended to be more of a joke and that's really it. Even so, I don't see the Warden's suggestion as being aggressive or abusive. It's not as though she demanding "lets run around the corner and screw! Now!" I took it as more of a coy, hey, wanna maybe spend some "alone time" together? Ultimately the line and the Warden's intentions/implications are up for the player to decide.. Which we both apparently have, and differently. 

 

I feel you might be overestimating how much power a mage in the Circle would have, especially toward a templar. 

 

I'm honestly not sure what you mean there.

 

And I am generally frustrated by the "it's not approved of" when talking about Templar's having relations with anybody vs. Mages not being allowed to have relations at all. As Knight Commander Mormont said, if they really did kick everyone out of Castle Black who had snuck in some nookie on the side, they'd have no Nights Watch left on the Wall, so it's an open secret this stuff happens. Still, I think this made more sense when Templars were sworn to Chastity more generally, rather then relations just being "disapproved of." I still don't know what that really means in practice.

 

It could probably just boil down to population control. If they want to prevent mage babies -- which they most certainly do -- then they'll want to try controlling sexual behavior. Creating a rule against such activity in theory would prevent copious amounts of coitus. Templars are in a position of chantry authority, so they shouldn't be "fraternizing" with mages under their law. Obviously it's all an idea that works on paper, not in practice. Cullen does say that Templars are allowed to marry but that there are rules regarding it. No idea about those details. Aveline apparently was acceptable, and she doesn't seem to really even believe in the Marker. 

[Tishina]

A few things here...

 

You get the same dialogue with Cullen in the magic prison during Broken Circle whether you took the heavy handed flirt or you just chatted with him and got "you can talk to me anytime." I know, because I played two Suranas through, and they took different options.

 

The heavy handed flirt option can be headcannoned a lot of ways, and it doesn't have to be bullying/harassment, it all depends on how your mage meant it, and whether it was something ongoing in your headcannon (I could imagine a mage thinking, I just survived my Harrowing, it's now or never!.) It's a pretty open secret that he has a thing for her (when you first wake up during the origin, there are two girls gossiping about it a few feet away - I also don't believe it's an accident that Cullen was assigned to her Harrowing by Greagoir.)  It's easy to headcannon that the mage has even less idea than Cullen on how to handle a relationship that isn't direct propositioning - she's young and been locked up in a tower with very little opportunity to learn how normal people act and may even not know that Templar-mage relationships are forbidden or it just hasn't really sunk in. And you know, if someone wants to play an ass***e warden, that's their business, and not ours to judge their motives.

 

Wynne's child's father was a Templar (possibly Greagoir himself.)

 

I think the only guidelines they really mention is that the prospective spouse for a Templar HAS to be self-supporting.

 

I could get behind a warden/Cullen romance now that it's years later and they've both matured...I actually think it would be cute.

I not only agree, I've been writing a story about one for over a year   I think there's a lot of room for their experiences during Broken Circle itself to create a bond (not necessarily romantic,) rather than the youthful crushes which hopefully have become nothing more than fond memories. I also like the example of two friends of mine who were childhood playmates until one moved away when 5 or 6 and occasionally wrote letters. They met again about 35 years later after both being married and divorced and almost immediately felt like best friends again (I was there, btw.) They got married last weekend

 

The point being, unless a crush is purely about sex and physical attraction, you're often still going to like the same person years later, even if it's just as friends. A lot depends on how much both people have changed and how.

[VivainaDX]

 

I not only agree, I've been writing a story about one for over a year   I think there's a lot of room for their experiences during Broken Circle itself to create a bond (not necessarily romantic,) rather than the youthful crushes which hopefully have become nothing more than fond memories. I also like the example of two friends of mine who were childhood playmates until one moved away when 5 or 6 and occasionally wrote letters. They met again about 35 years later after both being married and divorced and almost immediately felt like best friends again (I was there, btw.) They got married last weekend  (congrats to your friends!    )

 

I would definitely go romantic, even my Inquisitor could sense he still carries a torch for the warden. Oh would I love to write that story!    It would be fun...I would also love to match up Rylen and Cullen's youngest sister, it would be perfect.   

 

The point being, unless a crush is purely about sex and physical attraction, you're often still going to like the same person years later, even if it's just as friends. A lot depends on how much both people have changed and how.

 

YUP! Very true! I definitely know how old crushes, go. It's good if you can at least reconnect, in some way.    

[Yermogi]

To me, it seemed like when the Warden basically asked Cullen to go spend "quality time" with her, she was just trolling him. Like, it was clear that he was very blush-y and awkward and shy around her, and given the comments from other apprentices, it was very obvious that he liked her. But I think it was also very clear that he would never approach her for such a thing because he was basically in a teen-crush phase, so when she asked him to sleep with her, I felt like it was already a foregone conclusion that it would send him running for the hills and she would just laugh about it.

[VivainaDX]

I didn't get the impression she asked him to sleep with her, it seemed to more like an innocent let's get together and get to know eachother...not that there wouldn't have been a chance for it to lead up to more, just not right then. It seemed more of a, 'I watch you/you watch me' let's talk and see where this goes.Those kind of impromptu, throw caution to the wind moments do happen, and even with the kiss mod, there's times a chaste kiss is like an ice breaker to see if there could be a connection, but it doesn't always lead to sex. Either way, he turns her down or turns away from her and she is either stunned or hurt by his rejection. 

[DreamerM]

I'm aware I'm up against eight years of headcannon here. The Warden doesn't even have a voice, so whatever tone she uses to deliver that line, be is playful, troll-y, affectionate, or do-me-now, is left entirely up to the imagination of the reader. And with the only other interaction the Warden has with Cullen being after what seems to have been at least a few days of intense physical and psychological torture, it's hard to say what relationship they once had, if any. So just about anything goes.

 

All I can say is my, personal, first impression of that line, just based on the words alone and no other meta-knowledge... it felt inappropriately sexual and disrespectful of the boundaries he was trying so hard to maintain. And the fact that that is the ONLY even vaguely-romantic line we are offered (all the others are some variant of 'I have to go') it felt like it was more of a joke at Cullen's expense then anything else. Maybe she didn't know how serious his feelings were until she realized he'd been tortured with visions of her, but that doesn't really make it better. Even if I liked him, looking him in the eye after that would be really ... awkward.

Afterwards, well ... that's up to the fanfic writers. Not me.

[R2s Muse]

Oh it's endearing. But that's why I actually think it reflects badly on your fmage!warden if you flirt with or pursue him romantically. He's clearly uncomfortable about the whole thing, and since he is fighting like hell to maintain his distance... at a certain point aren't you just tormenting him because you can? If he's dug in his heels and is determined NOT to act on his feelings, aren't you being kind of a bully if you don't respect his choices and constantly pushing against his boundaries? No wonder they used her form to torment him, in that case. That's not a nice thing to do to anybody. If I were him, I'd be unable even to LOOK at the female warden again after that, let alone remember her fondly as a "special woman," like he does in DA2. No means no.

Keeping in mind that this is as much headcanon as assuming there was more between them. We get one short interaction to show us the nature of their relationship during the year he had been in the tower at that point. Adding to that the fact that, as has been mentioned, the Tower was basically like high school, and Bioware flirts are often the most awkward things on the planet (:cough:cough: Sebmancing Hawke, I'm lookin at you!). So there are many ways a player can imagine this scene that are just as valid as assuming the Warden is a bully. 

 

For myself, I've never been keen on the Cullen x Amell/Surana romance for many of the reasons mentioned, but I can also easily see where players read more here and play their character that way. Heck, my OTP is Cullen x Hawke, and there's far less to go on there. This is the beauty of the RPG.

 

Over the years, I've slowly come to appreciate his connection to the mage Warden more, sort of like the way you fondly remember your first high school crush. She's an important part of his past, whatever might or might not have happened. 

 

 

I think the only guidelines they really mention is that the prospective spouse for a Templar HAS to be self-supporting.

 

Agree with everything Tish said. I just want to emphasize here, fraternization between templars and their charges is considered highly unethical no matter what, and that relations between templars are also considered fraternization. Templars are allowed to marry only rarely and under special circumstances. 

 

Marriage is impractical, and the Chantry thus discourages such marriages as having dependants introduces complications that templars can do without (as well as a potential means of leverage).

 

That said, the Chantry does occasionally give permission for templars to marry, provided the spouse has their own means of support. This is often the case when the spouse owns land or a title. Even so, considering the spouse wouldn't be able to see the templar often, it's not going to happen frequently. Before anyone asks, the Chantry also discourages templars from marrying each other even more so-- that's considered fraternization within the ranks (the templars are run as a military order, remember, and possess the same discipline). -- David Gaider