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[DreamerM]

 

We get one short interaction to show us the nature of their relationship during the year he had been in the tower at that point.

 

And it starts with a list of options, three of which are some flavor of "goodbye" and one line that I (PERSONALLY, I know this is not true for everyone) can only imagine being delivered with a husky voice and squinty bedroom eyes. I know Bioware flirting is always awkward, but I have a hard time reading anything legitimately romantic into it. If she was into him for some reason besides the physical, there's no way to express it.

Besides, the Mages in the student's quarter will comment on how obvious Cullen's crush on FMage is to everybody. This makes less sense of FMage has been throwing these do-me-now kind of lines at Cullen. If she's this not-subtle, then how is SHE not the story that's going around the tower? If she'll proposition him right there in the hallway, how is it everyone from Gregoir on down isn't telling her off for harassment?

[Spirit Vanguard]

And it starts with a list of options, three of which are some flavor of "goodbye" and one line that I (PERSONALLY, I know this is not true for everyone) can only imagine being delivered with a husky voice and squinty bedroom eyes. I know Bioware flirting is always awkward, but I have a hard time reading anything legitimately romantic into it. If she was into him for some reason besides the physical, there's no way to express it.
Besides, the Mages in the student's quarter will comment on how obvious Cullen's crush on FMage is to everybody. This makes less sense of FMage has been throwing these do-me-now kind of lines at Cullen. If she's this not-subtle, then how is SHE not the story that's going around the tower? If she'll proposition him right there in the hallway, how is it everyone from Gregoir on down isn't telling her off for harassment?

I feel you're missing what has been said: the intention of that one speech option is up for the player to decide. To you it isn't romantic. To others it is. Or it's too vague to mean anything.

That being said, my perspective is: The Warden has a chance to make a single, possibly ambiguous, pass at Cullen, who has a not-so-subtle crush on her -- calling this predatory or harassment feels like an exaggeration. It isn't vulgar or forceful. Cullen has been trying to remain professional, yes, but I don't see how her taking this chance, with the knowledge of his feelings, makes her a deviant and him the victim. She leaves him with the choice to join her or not.

Flirting with someone who obviously likes you is part of how flirting works.

[DreamerM]

Flirting with someone who obviously likes you is part of how flirting works.

 

It's a little forceful for "flirting." I see flirting as more warm and playful, whereas this sounds more like naked innuendo to me.

I know, for you, I'm exaggerating. From my perspective, you're glossing over the more troubling aspects of their very limited interaction in order to paint the rosiest picture possible of an OTP, and that's fine.

Yes, yes, I know, headcannon and all that. But this is why my f!mage didn't flirt with Cullen, and was in fact a little uncomfortable about his attention. She liked him well enough, he seemed nice, but she knew Templars were bad news for mages, even the ones that don't mean any harm. I mean, if he's paying such close attention... what's he going to do the first time he sees her put one toe out of line? Again, he may not mean harm, but Cullen is a by-the-book youngster who takes his duty very seriously. It would have been stifling.

[Ghost Gal]

And it starts with a list of options, three of which are some flavor of "goodbye" and one line that I (PERSONALLY, I know this is not true for everyone) can only imagine being delivered with a husky voice and squinty bedroom eyes. I know Bioware flirting is always awkward, but I have a hard time reading anything legitimately romantic into it. If she was into him for some reason besides the physical, there's no way to express it.

Besides, the Mages in the student's quarter will comment on how obvious Cullen's crush on FMage is to everybody. This makes less sense of FMage has been throwing these do-me-now kind of lines at Cullen. If she's this not-subtle, then how is SHE not the story that's going around the tower? If she'll proposition him right there in the hallway, how is it everyone from Gregoir on down isn't telling her off for harassment?

 

Dude, you really took that one post I said where I didn't care for Cullen x Amell/Surana because I felt it could never be a truly equal or consensual relationship since one person (the Templar) has all the power and the other (the mage) doesn't really have any power, and ran with it.

 

Only, instead you keep taking every opportunity to blame and sl*t-shame Amell/Surana. 

 

Cullen has a crush on Amell/Surana. That's not their fault. Considering he's stated to have that crush on you before you can even react to him and/or whether your character shows they like him, dislike him, don't know him from a brick in the wall, etc. one can infer that he grew to like the Mage Warden even though/if she did nothing to court his attention.

 

And that's just it: you seem to assume that just because he likes her and/or the player has the option to flirt with him, it must be because she was throwing herself at him. I'm sorry, but that's a sexist assumption. Just because a guy likes a girl doesn't mean it's because she threw herself at him. Sometimes people come by their crushes honestly, whether or not the other person noticed or courted their attention.

 

Regarding the flirt dialogue: while the player has the option to proposition him, due to the lack of voiced dialogue or body animations we don't know the tone of voice she uses or how loudly she says it. You imagine her yelling it in a husky voice while jutting out her hips with "do me" eyes, but plenty of other people imagine it differently. She might say it quietly, softly, sweetly, playfully, etc. Cullen is so skittish and nervous when you come up to him, even if you just say, " 'sup?" that his extreme reaction (read:bolting) is not "proof" that she was obviously going full Jessica Rabbit on his d!ck. Also, just because she can flirt with him that one time doesn't mean she's flirted with him before.

 

As for why Cullen is famous for being in love with Amell/Surana rather than the other way around, again a) Cullen is shown to like Amell/Surana before she can show whether or not she even likes him, b ) he's obviously bad at hiding it. You've seen how differently he acts from the male mage verses the female mage, and even Jowan verses Amell/Surana. If he can turn into a fumbling, stuttering mess just from her walking up to him, it's safe to assume he probably gets starry eyed even when she's not looking, so everyone probably caught wind and started passing it around. Again, just because he likes her doesn't mean it's because she was wantonly seducing him.

 

I'll admit I don't approve of Circle Templar/mage relations (because I just really don't think a truly equal, consensual relationship can form between a jailer and prisoner), but I'm not going to jump to assume the potential relationship was because the mage (especially female mage) was this cartoonishly wanton, husky, deviant sex demon trying to ensnare an innocent little (male) Templar with her evil womanly wiles.

[Spirit Vanguard]

It's a little forceful for "flirting." I see flirting as more warm and playful, whereas this sounds more like naked innuendo to me.
I know, for you, I'm exaggerating. From my perspective, you're glossing over the more troubling aspects of their very limited interaction in order to paint the rosiest picture possible of an OTP, and that's fine.
Yes, yes, I know, headcannon and all that. But this is why my f!mage didn't flirt with Cullen, and was in fact a little uncomfortable about his attention. She liked him well enough, he seemed nice, but she knew Templars were bad news for mages, even the ones that don't mean any harm. I mean, if he's paying such close attention... what's he going to do the first time he sees her put one toe out of line? Again, he may not mean harm, but Cullen is a by-the-book youngster who takes his duty very seriously. It would have been stifling.

No.

I'm not "glossing over" an ambiguous line for the "rosiest view possible" of an OTP -- which I never stated was mine.

Individual Interpretation.

With the wisdom of Commander Shepard on this stalemate: I should go.

[DreamerM]

Only, instead you keep taking every opportunity to blame and sl*t-shame Amell/Surana.

 

What?? No no no no, not at all my intention. If Amell/Surana actually wants sex, that's fine, she can flirt or sleep with or do whatever she wants with whoever she wants. Go for it, have fun, seize the day. I have zero problem with any of that. Enjoy. Enjoy sex with Cullen, if you can coax him out of that armor. More power to you. Enjoy.

I feel squicky about this particular moment in this particular case, because in this case, the "flirt" option sounds much more sexual then I think is appropriate for the context. And that's something I have seen a lot of Warden/Cullen shippers glossing over. Again, I've heard people proudly declare THEIR warden chased Cullen all over the castle trying desperately to start something with him, and whatever objections I can offer based on the many many reasons that would be a bad idea seem to fall on deaf ears.

No, his fixation on her is not her fault. No, being able to flirt now does not mean they've flirted before. You can play it that way if you want to, just like you can have her blow him off. No, I don't think she's been 'wantonly seducing him' as you put it. BUT, if we are going to use the flirt dialog as a barometer and decide that is indicative of previous conversations they've had (again, players talk about "chasing him around the tower" and they are proud of it, they think it's romantic) then... THAT is a player character who is, in my mind, completely inappropriately and more then a little dangerously. Maybe you think I'm exaggerating... but what if I'm not? And if the only reason the Apprentices are talking about him having a crush on her rather then the other way around is, well, she's either just better at hiding it or she only just now decided she wants to jump his bones... Really? You want to play it that way? Ok...

People see what they want to see, I get that. Again, this one interaction is all we have to go on. I can't prove anything. I'm trying to understand where this passionate fanbase came from. Apparently I saw this pair very differently then lots of other people did...

 

I'm not "glossing over" an ambiguous line

I feel like the line gets treated as more ambiguous then it really is. But The Warden is a blank slate. The only personality he or she has is the one you create in your own head while you pick between various pre-written lines. This is good, as people get deeply invested in the characters they create, but it also means all of these readings are subjective.

I know there are very different 'personal interpretations' out there. This one's mine. At the very least it's no less legitimate then anyone else's, considering the lack of material we have to work with.

[Tishina]

I think you're beating a dead horse. No one's going to change anyone else's interpretation or headcannon. But we do have a tradition in this thread of not criticizing how other people play their PCs and the choices they make.

 

So, anyone have some great fanart of Cullen or a great story they found recently? Or do I need to repost hilarious f!dwarf x Cullen screenshots...

[Spirit Vanguard]

^ Should you post silly screenshots with Cullen? This is a question?

[DreamerM]

I think you're beating a dead horse. No one's going to change anyone else's interpretation or headcannon. But we do have a tradition in this thread of not criticizing how other people play their PCs and the choices they make.

 

So, anyone have some great fanart of Cullen or a great story they found recently? Or do I need to repost hilarious f!dwarf x Cullen screenshots...

AH! My mistake. Apologies!

I don't have any screenshots, but I've got an angsty Cullen thumbnail I scribbled in a dark moment, if that would help.

[Tishina]

^ Should you post silly screenshots with Cullen? This is a question?

Don't say I didn't warn you...

 

This one is cute, actually...

So's this one, though a bit humorous...

Vetra's being a bit obvious here...

Then again, Cullen's a bit direct...

 

Yes, I used a mod. They never gave us any reason in game, just an eventual hint by devs that the race gating in Cullen's case was due to a lack of time. And I like dwarves. The "off" animations in this aren't much worse than the poorly done ones for a f!dwarf x Blackwall romance imo. They make an adorable couple...

[Spirit Vanguard]

^ Totally worth it.

I had a similar problem when romancing Blackwall with a qunari. She kept shrinking to be shorter than him. I was just like: what holy mess is this. At least the optional kissy thing wasn't goofed up.

[Tishina]

^ Totally worth it.

I had a similar problem when romancing Blackwall with a qunari. She kept shrinking to be shorter than him. I was just felt like: what holy mess is this. At least the optional kissy thing wasn't goofed up.

Yeah, it kind of defeated the purpose of playing a TALL woman (or in the case of a dwarf, a short woman.) I think they were too fixated on romance scenes where he walks the IQ backwards (he does in both,) then when they added the other races, they took the cheap way out instead of either changing the scene or fixing it for dwarves and qunari.

 

I think someone played a qunari and romanced Cullen using the same mod, but I can't remember who. It's pretty funny...

[Spirit Vanguard]

Yeah, it kind of defeated the purpose of playing a TALL woman (or in the case of a dwarf, a short woman.) I think they were too fixated on romance scenes where he walks the IQ backwards (he does in both,) then when they added the other races, they took the cheap way out instead of either changing the scene or fixing it for dwarves and qunari.

I think someone played a qunari and romanced Cullen using the same mod, but I can't remember who. It's pretty funny...

After seeing the awkward qunari animations I did wonder about dwarves. Is it weird in all the romances? Because that would suck. (The horror of a Bull romance) I haven't played a dwarf yet (too attached to magic) but was planning to roll one and romance Josephine.

Somehow I imagine Cullen and a qunari wouldn't be so bad?

[vertigomez]

After seeing the awkward qunari animations I did wonder about dwarves. Is it weird in all the romances? Because that would suck. (The horror of a Bull romance) I haven't played a dwarf yet (too attached to magic) but was planning to roll one and romance Josephine.
Somehow I imagine Cullen and a qunari wouldn't be so bad?

Bull's actually one of the better ones for a dwarf romance (speaking purely about cutscene/height quality). He already has to lean over for every possible LI because he's the tallest companion in the game, and at one point if you're a dwarf you stand on a barrel to reach him.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Bull's actually one of the better ones for a dwarf romance (speaking purely about cutscene/height quality). He already has to lean over for every possible LI because he's the tallest companion in the game, and at one point if you're a dwarf you stand on a barrel to reach him.

That is adorable.

I romanced Bull with a human, so it was a middle-ground for me. Although I suppose he'd be the same height as a male qunari Inquisitor. In theory.

[vertigomez]

That is adorable.
I romanced Bull with a human, so it was a middle-ground for me. Although I suppose he'd be the same height as a male qunari Inquisitor. In theory.

It is super adorable.

Bull's taller and broader than a male qunari Inquisitor, actually. He has a unique body model. Guy is YUUUUUGE.

[DreamerM]

.... I hope this helps redeem me some. Cullen Angst during "Broken Circle."

Not very detailed, but I drew it pretty quickly.

Warning, minor blood.

 

Spoiler

[Ghost Gal]

What?? No no no no, not at all my intention. If Amell/Surana actually wants sex, that's fine, she can flirt or sleep with or do whatever she wants with whoever she wants. Go for it, have fun, seize the day. I have zero problem with any of that. Enjoy. Enjoy sex with Cullen, if you can coax him out of that armor. More power to you. Enjoy.

I feel squicky about this particular moment in this particular case, because in this case, the "flirt" option sounds much more sexual then I think is appropriate for the context. 

 

This is a game that involves mass murder, rape, and lobotomy across multiple origins and main story quests throughout the game, and you think one dialogue option where a girl can ask a guy who's clearly into her if he wants to "get to know each other more" in back is inappropriate for the context?

 

THAT is a player character who is, in my mind, completely inappropriately and more then a little dangerously. Maybe you think I'm exaggerating... but what if I'm not? And if the only reason the Apprentices are talking about him having a crush on her rather then the other way around is, well, she's either just better at hiding it or she only just now decided she wants to jump his bones... Really? You want to play it that way? Ok...

 

And once again, we come back to "he liked her, therefore she must have been throwing herself at him." Once again we come back to, "her offer seems suggestive, therefore she must have said it in a overly huskily way while jutting out her hips while fluttering 'do me' eyes." Once again, we come back to, "She has the option to flirt aggressively, therefore she must have flirted aggressively every time before now so it makes no sense that people don't talk about her throwing herself at him or her possibly flirting more tamely before now."

 

I can't speak for why people would choose this dialogue option, how they imagined their character's personality or flirt/sexual history, how they imagined their character interacted with Cullen in the past (if they interacted at all), or what tone of voice or body language they imagined their character used while saying that line. But, while I can't imagine any of my Suranas saying that line for any reason except to deliberately make Cullen uncomfortable (haha, that's another interpretation of the line; a girl who doesn't mean it but just says it to make a Templar she doesn't like squirm), I'm not going to assume that my interpretation of the line is the universal one and everyone else is imagining something clearly not presented in the game.

 

I have a hard time with Cullen x Mage because at his core Cullen truly believes in the Chantry and Circle and believes mages should be locked up "for their own good," so when playing as a mage I have a hard time imagining wanting to touch someone who fundamentally believes she should be denied rights and freedoms of others based on her magic. It's all good and well for him to say what mages should do since he is not one, nor are any of his family. I always wondered how he'd feel about Circles if one of his family was a mage?

 

Actually, since Cullen can now marry a mage Inquisitor (particularly a Dalish Keeper's First Inquisitor), now that the possibility of kids is on the table, I wonder how he would feel about the Circles if he had a mage kid? He's seen the worst the Circles can offer, as well as the abuses that can slip under the radar since the system allows abusive Templars to act with impunity (Meredith). How would he feel sending his own mage kid into that lion's den? Especially now that he's no longer a Templar?

[VivainaDX]

 

I can't speak for why people would choose this dialogue option, how they imagined their character's personality or flirt/sexual history, how they imagined their character interacted with Cullen in the past (if they interacted at all), or what tone of voice or body language they imagined their character used while saying that line. But, while I can't imagine any of my Suranas saying that line for any reason except to deliberately make Cullen uncomfortable (haha, that's another interpretation of the line; a girl who doesn't mean it but just says it to make a Templar she doesn't like squirm), I'm not going to assume that my interpretation of the line is the universal one and everyone else is imagining something clearly not presented in the game.

 

There are so many different ways to take that flirt option, you're right, and everyone has their own reasons for doing so. The first time I did, it was because I saw how Cullen reacted to it on Youtube and thought it was adorable.    After some consideration I come up with a few other reasons too. She had just asked him if he would've killed her during her harrowing, he said he would've...I may have wanted to get to know the guy who held my life in there hands for a brief time, he seemed hesitant about it, was he a good guy? She heard that he had a crush on her, she also heard that he had confidence in her abilities and seemed proud that she had passed her harrowing with flying colors(that bit of dialogue came up after her harrowing) so wouldn't it be nice to at least get to know the person who seems to hold you in such high regard, especially if he was so cute and seemed to be a decent guy? She did find him cute and had liked him back, so hearing the gossip and passing her harrowing gave her the confidence to approach him...Either way, his reaction could be considered, endearing, insulting and/or frustrating, all on different levels.

 

I have a hard time with Cullen x Mage because at his core Cullen truly believes in the Chantry and Circle and believes mages should be locked up "for their own good," so when playing as a mage I have a hard time imagining wanting to touch someone who fundamentally believes she should be denied rights and freedoms of others based on her magic. It's all good and well for him to say what mages should do since he is not one, nor are any of his family. I always wondered how he'd feel about Circles if one of his family was a mage?

 

I'd like to see that too. I'd love to see something done with his family in South Reach...maybe his youngest sister. Secretly being a mage, she gets her training from mage elves hiding in the outskirts of the Bracilian Forest. No one in the family knowing...Oooh the intrigue. After hearing about the Circle in Ferelden, the mess in Kirkwall and the mage rebellion, it would make sense the poor girl would want to keep that kind of info away from her family.

 

 

Actually, since Cullen can now marry a mage Inquisitor (particularly a Dalish Keeper's First Inquisitor), now that the possibility of kids is on the table, I wonder how he would feel about the Circles if he had a mage kid? He's seen the worst the Circles can offer, as well as the abuses that can slip under the radar since the system allows abusive Templars to act with impunity (Meredith). How would he feel sending his own mage kid into that lion's den? Especially now that he's no longer a Templar?

 

He seem's to have lost faith in the traditional Circle, I can't see him turning his child over to a Circle if it was still run the way Merideth ran it. He'd shelter his kid. IMO

[Qun00]

I'm rather confused by the way Cullen is portrayed in our first meeting with him in Broken Circle.

The delivery of his lines just sounds so ridiculous. And I don't think it is the actor that failed to convey the feelings of a terrified man, but the scene itself intended it to have the nature of comedy.

Just take a look at this: "They've been surrounded b-by blood mages whose wicked fingers snake into your mind and corrupt your thoughts!"

It's like we're supposed to laugh at Cullen for being superstitious about the oh so innocent blood magic rather than feel sympathy for the torture he's endured.

[VivainaDX]

I'm rather confused by the way Cullen is portrayed in our first meeting with him in Broken Circle.

The delivery of his lines just sounds so ridiculous. And I don't think it is the actor that failed to convey the feelings of a terrified man, but the scene itself intended it to have the nature of comedy.

Just take a look at this: "They've been surrounded b-by blood mages whose wicked fingers snake into your mind and corrupt your thoughts!"

It's like we're supposed to laugh at Cullen for being superstitious about the oh so innocent blood magic rather than feel sympathy for the torture he's endured.

Really? Awww...It came across to me as a tortured guy, who was exhausted and fighting for his sanity. I didn't find it comical, but I guess everyone has an interpretation. I felt bad for him.

[Qun00]

I didn't say there was no reason to feel bad for Cullen.

I said the scene, as it plays out, focuses more on mocking him for it.

[VivainaDX]

I didn't say there was no reason to feel bad for Cullen.

I said the scene, as it plays out, focuses more on mocking him for it.

I didn't see it as mocking him, How so?

[Spirit Vanguard]

...

I have a hard time with Cullen x Mage because at his core Cullen truly believes in the Chantry and Circle and believes mages should be locked up "for their own good," so when playing as a mage I have a hard time imagining wanting to touch someone who fundamentally believes she should be denied rights and freedoms of others based on her magic. It's all good and well for him to say what mages should do since he is not one, nor are any of his family. I always wondered how he'd feel about Circles if one of his family was a mage?

 

Actually, since Cullen can now marry a mage Inquisitor (particularly a Dalish Keeper's First Inquisitor), now that the possibility of kids is on the table, I wonder how he would feel about the Circles if he had a mage kid? He's seen the worst the Circles can offer, as well as the abuses that can slip under the radar since the system allows abusive Templars to act with impunity (Meredith). How would he feel sending his own mage kid into that lion's den? Especially now that he's no longer a Templar?

 

That makes me think of Trask. He ultimately could't bring himself to keep his daughter in the Circle, and then there was her downfall because of reasons.   I'd like to think that Cullen is at least opening up to the idea of change for mages. Perhaps having a mage child would force him to question what it is he really believes.

 

I like romancing Cullen with a mage (although I prefer playing mages regardless.) His views do concern me, but maybe he could still change his mind? Part of me does like the conflicts a mage romance can bring to the table -- almost like Fenris with a mage Hawke. Perhaps the romance itself could cause him to think more about the issue from a different perspective. I know I'm naive but I like to see it that way, or at least hope for it.

 

"The man I was wouldn't have cared for you and the thought of it sickens me..." Oh, Cullen. Change isn't easy. 

[R2s Muse]

I didn't see it as mocking him, How so?

Agree. Esp given some of the other companion comments, like how Leliana comments on how she's familiar with such signs of torture. I think they did a good job making him sound slightly unhinged, because, let's be honest, he's probably still holding on by a thread at that point. But I really felt that the writers intended for us to pity him and perhaps to be slightly offended by his 'rar, kill all the mages' insistence.