93 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathScepter]

*makes some popcorn and share it with everyone and tells everyone to not worry; gets some cold drinks out of the fridge*

[Bob from Accounting]

But it would be really interesting of Bob's hypothesis was correct, as it would imply that the Leviathans supplied the blueprints for the Crucible tech. Which would explain why they were so damn sketch when Shep asked about it - "err, uh, yeah we'd tell you who built the Crucible but like, yeah, we've got something we gotta do bro".

 

Err, no, it would just mean the Catalyst used the same technology as the Leviathans. Hardly a surprise.

[Mcfly616]

Well, this thread certainly deviated down an unexpected path. Anyway, this was simply another attempt to frame the endings in a way that justified BioWare's presentation of the endings, with Destroy being the worst and Synthesis being the best. Rather than debating whether the literal result of Synthesis is an atrocity, I chose to emphasize the philosophical aspect of it instead.

while I found it interesting, it's nothing more than your own perspective of how Bioware 'presented' the endings. From your perspective it may have seemed as if they presented Destroy as the worst and Synthesis as the best, but that's not necessarily how other people see it or how it actually is

[DeathScepter]

*wonders about that spiderman picture*

[Bob from Accounting]

Quoting a datapad from Despoina:

 

"Attempts to get airborne have failed every time. The damage done by the pulses, if you could call it damage, doesn't make physical sense. The connections aren't fried, but Monarch's thrusters disengage. The distress beacon is likewise dead, but most of our electronics are still functioning. It doesn't seem to be a result of shielding."

 

I'd have to go and listen to Cortez's dialogue to get everything, but it's evident that is not a 'power drain' or what have you.

[Mcfly616]

Regarding the whole Leviathan deal, from my perspective I just looked at it as indoctrination in its rawest form. The Catalyst and Reapers merely inherited, harnessed and perfected the ability from their creators. Hence why they can control a Reaper in any way they like or just shut it down. (However, I highly doubt there's enough of them to take on the the Reaper Armada)


Just my take on it.



As far as the other ships go, Idk...I'd have to playthrough it again (as if I hadn't done that enough). Either way, I believe it's different than say 'controlling a Reaper'. I doubt the energy that disabled the ships is the same as the power used to 'dominate' the Brute.

[CrutchCricket]

*wonders about that spiderman picture*

 

So... no one's gonna take this one? Alright, fine, I guess I'll do it.

 

[SwobyJ]

Well, this thread certainly deviated down an unexpected path. Anyway, this was simply another attempt to frame the endings in a way that justified BioWare's presentation of the endings, with Destroy being the worst and Synthesis being the best. Rather than debating whether the literal result of Synthesis is an atrocity, I chose to emphasize the philosophical aspect of it instead.

 

'Nature' isn't a reason for anything being the best. It simply is.

[CosmicGnosis]

while I found it interesting, it's nothing more than your own perspective of how Bioware 'presented' the endings. From your perspective it may have seemed as if they presented Destroy as the worst and Synthesis as the best, but that's not necessarily how other people see it or how it actually is

Yeah, but there is strong evidence that Synthesis was considered the ideal ending. However, there is also some evidence that High EMS Destroy was the best, but not as much. A lot of the Synthesis evidence comes from the older scripts, and a certain line in particular: "Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

[SwobyJ]

Breath Destroy

Synthesis

 

High Destroy

High Control

 

Low Control

Low Destroy

 

Vaporize Destroy

Refuse

[Mcfly616]

Yeah, but there is strong evidence that Synthesis was considered the ideal ending. However, there is also some evidence that High EMS Destroy was the best, but not as much. A lot of the Synthesis evidence comes from the older scripts, and a certain line in particular: "Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

having the 'perfect' playthrough may give you enough assets to build the Crucible with full functionality, therefore making Synthesis possible....


That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the 'ideal' solution.


Imo I think they tried their best to make each ending ambiguous enough to let us decide what is best from our point of view. And I also believe they did it to have us doing exactly what we're doing......talking about it. Still.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Quoting a datapad from Despoina:

 

"Attempts to get airborne have failed every time. The damage done by the pulses, if you could call it damage, doesn't make physical sense. The connections aren't fried, but Monarch's thrusters disengage. The distress beacon is likewise dead, but most of our electronics are still functioning. It doesn't seem to be a result of shielding."

 

I'd have to go and listen to Cortez's dialogue to get everything, but it's evident that is not a 'power drain' or what have you.

 

 

Sounds exactly like a power drain to me. In fact, remembering earlier in the DLC when talking about why Leviathan has an interest in Eezo facilities, I'd wager to say that it leeches energy from ships and uses it as a form of sustenance.

 

New idea (not aimed at David since it will inevitably be scoffed at and ridiculed); Perhaps the Leviathans have the ability to leech element zero energy from other craft, including Reapers themselves, and use it to power their own abilities. Which would also explain why the Leviathans would be more likely to run away from the Reapers instead of fighting them, since they are not only fewer in numbers, but have a limited supply of energy to power their capabilities in regards to manipulating eezo fields and possibly their version of indoctrination.

[Jukaga]

Regarding the whole Leviathan deal, from my perspective I just looked at it as indoctrination in its rawest form. The Catalyst and Reapers merely inherited, harnessed and perfected the ability from their creators. Hence why they can control a Reaper in any way they like or just shut it down. (However, I highly doubt there's enough of them to take on the the Reaper Armada)


Just my take on it.



As far as the other ships go, Idk...I'd have to playthrough it again (as if I hadn't done that enough). Either way, I believe it's different than say 'controlling a Reaper'. I doubt the energy that disabled the ships is the same as the power used to 'dominate' the Brute.

I think thats a reasonable assumption, the act of controlling a single reaper capital ship being a hard limit per leviathan. A fleet could likely overwhelm the three we saw on Despoina though there could be more there we didn't see.

[CrutchCricket]

Well this is disappointing. If the best we have in the trolls and derailers department is David, tis a sad forum indeed.

 

Sounds exactly like a power drain to me. In fact, remembering earlier in the DLC when talking about why Leviathan has an interest in Eezo facilities, I'd wager to say that it leeches energy from ships and uses it as a form of sustenance.

 

New idea (not aimed at David since it will inevitably be scoffed at and ridiculed); Perhaps the Leviathans have the ability to leech element zero energy from other craft, including Reapers themselves, and use it to power their own abilities. Which would also explain why the Leviathans would be more likely to run away from the Reapers instead of fighting them, since they are not only fewer in numbers, but have a limited supply of energy to power their capabilities in regards to manipulating eezo fields and possibly their version of indoctrination.

 

Interesting idea. Except if it did use that method for sustenance it would need to lure unsuspecting ships to Despoina in order to keep feeding. This seems to be at odds with them erasing all trace of themselves and not wanting to be found. It would also mean your blockade idea would be even more doomed as now you're tying not just their arrogance and desire to rule, but also their very survival on leaving. Unless it can leech any power source including geothermal...

 

I think we'd need to chalk this up to full-on space magic, as I don't think any amount of technobabble would plausibly explain it. But I do like the idea. Mind if I run with it for my stuff?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Interesting idea. Except if it did use that method for sustenance it would need to lure unsuspecting ships to Despoina in order to keep feeding. This seems to be at odds with them erasing all trace of themselves and not wanting to be found. It would also mean your blockade idea would be even more doomed as now you're tying not just their arrogance and desire to rule, but also their very survival on leaving. Unless it can leech any power source including geothermal...

 

I think we'd need to chalk this up to full-on space magic, as I don't think any amount of technobabble would plausibly explain it. But I do like the idea. Mind if I run with it for my stuff?

 

Not really. I never really made a precribed range limitation to the Leviathans capability. I imagine it's limited to a range of several kilometers, given what we see of them. I think though that one way they get ships to the planet is by luring them in with the orbs. They don't really have to worry about erasing themselves, since they'd indoctrinate the crews, and have them go to the planet. That said, a bit of refinement: Perhaps it's not necessarily sustenance (as if that was the case, it might be difficult for the Leviathans to have evolved in the first place), but fuel for their power source. It would tie in to their need and use for eezo, which was a plot point to Leviathan that got dropped after the mining facility. Of course, all of this is speculative supposition.

[Bob from Accounting]

 

Unless it can leech any power source including geothermal...

 

I think we'd need to chalk this up to full-on space magic, as I don't think any amount of technobabble would plausibly explain it. But I do like the idea. Mind if I run with it for my stuff?

 

Perhaps you could try learning what the 'technobabble' actually means. For example, calling geothermal a 'power source' to be 'leeched from' is rather clumsy in this context. You can't really leech thermal energy as power. If you could, all our energy concerns would be solved.

[CrutchCricket]

Not really. I never really made a precribed range limitation to the Leviathans capability. I imagine it's limited to a range of several kilometers, given what we see of them. I think though that one way they get ships to the planet is by luring them in with the orbs. They don't really have to worry about erasing themselves, since they'd indoctrinate the crews, and have them go to the planet. That said, a bit of refinement: Perhaps it's not necessarily sustenance (as if that was the case, it might be difficult for the Leviathans to have evolved in the first place), but fuel for their power source. It would tie in to their need and use for eezo, which was a plot point to Leviathan that got dropped after the mining facility. Of course, all of this is speculative supposition.

 

If I may, I propose in the beginning they did evolve to drain geothermal energy (being creatures of the deep and all). Once they started enthralling and taking over, their thralls could've built artificial sources for them to chew on. Over time they started adapting to feed off more artificial sources, though not eezo directly. When the holokid betrayed them their food sources were an obvious weakness. It would also explain why they couldn't just drain all its little robots from the start. Once the survivors saw what Harbinger was becoming perhaps they modified themselves to drain dark energy directly leading to the form we see today.

[Kabooooom]

Err, no, it would just mean the Catalyst used the same technology as the Leviathans. Hardly a surprise.

Wait - are you actually suggesting that the Catalyst created the Crucible tech and the options? Because this seems contrary to your previous stance on this topic, so I'm going to assume that you were just making a post in your typical contrarian fashion to troll as usual.

[AlanC9]

I thought the idea was that the Crucible is a Leviathan design also.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Perhaps you could try learning what the 'technobabble' actually means. For example, calling geothermal a 'power source' to be 'leeched from' is rather clumsy in this context. You can't really leech thermal energy as power. If you could, all our energy concerns would be solved.

 

Not at all. People have all kinds of wonder ideas about making cheap, renewable, and ecological power sources. I think it's great, but they all forget that the infrastructure doesn't exist to support any of it on a truly macro scale, at least not in the United States or United Kingdom. Same with automobiles. Can we make cars and other vehicles that run on more efficient, cleaner, and enduring power from Oil? Yes. Can we do it while making an enormous and intensive overhaul of power-generation infrastructure? Not easily. 

 

Are you a power-systems technician now too? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Are you a power-systems technician now too? 

 

I wish I went to David's school. Having a degree in omniscience sounds like it would be pretty useful.

[Mcfly616]

Wait - are you actually suggesting that the Catalyst created the Crucible tech and the options?

there's actually a pretty good perspective over at Game Front which delves into such a scenario. Very interesting read. Atleast imo. I refer to it as the "Civilization Benchmark" perspective. The Catalyst treats the galaxy like a literal experiment by implementing the zeroth law in a very extreme way.

[CosmicGnosis]

having the 'perfect' playthrough may give you enough assets to build the Crucible with full functionality, therefore making Synthesis possible....


That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the 'ideal' solution.


Imo I think they tried their best to make each ending ambiguous enough to let us decide what is best from our point of view. And I also believe they did it to have us doing exactly what we're doing......talking about it. Still.

 

I'll provide a quote that supports both perspectives:

 

"I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people, but I know what they mean, they’re talking about the gameplay optimal ending, and the single player has all of the assets that you need to be able to achieve that."

- Mac Walters

 

So what is the "gameplay optimal ending" that doesn't require multiplayer to achieve? It can't be the breath scene because it was originally impossible to get it without multiplayer, and this is a pre-release quote. I suspect that Walters is referring to Synthesis.

[Mcfly616]

I'll provide a quote that supports both perspectives:

"I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people, but I know what they mean, they’re talking about the gameplay optimal ending, and the single player has all of the assets that you need to be able to achieve that."
- Mac Walters

So what is the "gameplay optimal ending" that doesn't require multiplayer to achieve? It can't be the breath scene because it was originally impossible to get it without multiplayer, and this is a pre-release quote. I suspect that Walters is referring to Synthesis.

I see nothing wrong with the quote. Sounds like I was spot on.


If you're talking about what 'getting the most war assets' achieves aka a 'perfect playthrough' from a gameplay perspective....then it makes Synthesis possible. Still, doesn't mean it's the 'ideal' solution. It just means you got the most war assets possible, making the Crucible better made/better protected/fully functional. The Crucible can achieve Synthesis with full functionality. It doesn't necessarily make it the best solution for the situation.(whatever the state of 'your' galaxy may be)

However, I do believe that Synthesis is 'the' ideal solution for the organic/synthetic conflict.

[KaiserShep]

And a fully-functional crucible allows the relays to not totally detonate, and leaves the barriers on the Citadel intact so Shepard doesn't get blown out into space.