93 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

The best decision depends on your personal ideology. I like Control best because I value getting the infrastructure up and running ASAP and having a way to deal with Leviathans if needed. Other people will value different things and that's okay.

[FlyingSquirrel]

The Futility of Control

 

The Catalyst failed not because it was "corrupted", but because its failure was inevitable. It attempted to control Nature, to force it down an unnatural path. The flaw is that the Catalyst is not eternal. Even if the harvest cycle had been successful, Nature's universe would still have ended. The Catalyst could never preserve life for all time. The plan was futile. When the Crucible docks, the Catalyst knows that it has failed. There is a small possibility that Catalyst-Shepard, a synthetic mind with an organic origin, could develop a new plan to control Nature, but it's unlikely. Again, Shepard-Catalyst is not eternal. It cannot control life for all time. All things will end. Resistance is futile.

 

This is why I wish Bioware had left the Control ending a little more open-ended in the Extended Cut. It's not necessary for Shepard, or AI-Shepard, to have some grand plan for controlling the future of sentient life to choose the Control ending. I think many of us who were partial to Control in the original endings chose it because we saw it as the least "imposing" - it doesn't result in huge collateral damage (Destroy, at least if EDI and the geth are alive) or try to rewrite the very nature of life without even asking if anyone wants that (Synthesis). I imagined a post-Control future as one in which the Reapers don't behave as "overlords" but rather as reconstruction planners and occasional measures of last resort to stop major disasters or wars, with AI-Shepard directing them to treat other species as equals and refrain from intervening in most situations.

 

The lines like "there is power in control" and "I will build a future of limitless possibilities" in the Control EC made me decidedly uncomfortable, as they suggested that AI-Shepard might be prone to overreaching and definitely did *not* reflect what most of my Controller-Shepards were thinking when they grabbed those levers. It's a big part of why I started to consider a headcanoned Synthesis rather than a headcanoned Control for my canon Shepard's ending.

[SwobyJ]

Destroy - "..just imagine what we can do, now that they are defeated."

Control - "..build a future of limitless possibilities."

Synthesis - "..to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."

 

~~~

 

Refuse - Imaginable, limited, what happened

Destroy - Imaginable, limited, what we can do now

Control  - Imaginable, unlimited, what is possible now

Synthesis - Unimaginable, unlimited, what level of existence we can reach now

 

Everything will change, but on our terms.

 

~~~

 

FlyingSquirrel, you chose to put yourself in a Reaper form (whether their robot ships or otherwise). Historically, for maybe billions of years, they've been known to 'overreach'. Even if IntelligenceShep softens that significantly, he's still a Reaper, and he's still going to do what he thinks he needs to, to preserve as many as possible.

 

Your perception just didn't match the writing.

 

Yes, Synthesis is the most unknown. Any history regarding its concepts have resulted in failure, yes, but any stories around its themes have been positive and hopeful. So really, imo it levels out to being the most speculative of endings for the whole galaxy, not Control. Control at least makes clear what Shepard is in for (even before EC), and Destroy is pretty clear about most things. (MOST. lol)

[FlyingSquirrel]

Destroy - "..just imagine what we can do, now that they are defeated."

Control - "..build a future of limitless possibilities."

Synthesis - "..to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."

 

~~~

 

Refuse - Imaginable, limited, what happened

Destroy - Imaginable, limited, what we can do now

Control  - Imaginable, unlimited, what is possible now

Synthesis - Unimaginable, unlimited, what level of existence we can reach now

 

Everything will change, but on our terms.

 

~~~

 

FlyingSquirrel, you chose to put yourself in a Reaper form (whether their robot ships or otherwise). Historically, for maybe billions of years, they've been known to 'overreach'. Even if IntelligenceShep softens that significantly, he's still a Reaper, and he's still going to do what he thinks he needs to, to preserve as many as possible.

 

Your perception just didn't match the writing.

 

Yes, Synthesis is the most unknown. Any history regarding its concepts have resulted in failure, yes, but any stories around its themes have been positive and hopeful. So really, imo it levels out to being the most speculative of endings for the whole galaxy, not Control. Control at least makes clear what Shepard is in for (even before EC), and Destroy is pretty clear about most things. (MOST. lol)

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say AI-Shepard *is* a Reaper, unless you also consider the Catalyst a Reaper. They're AIs, but we already know from the Reapers and the geth that there can be different types - different species, if you will - of AIs. Reapers are formed out of other harvested species. The Catalyst wasn't, and neither is AI-Shepard.

 

The possibility of AI-Shepard losing perspective and starting to overreach is there no matter what, but I felt like the EC made it seem a little more likely even in the Paragon version, and the Renegade version is just flat-out frightening. Plus, there are things that an AI-Shepard could do to protect the galaxy from itself shortly after it is first created. For example, off the top of my head, it could create a hidden cache of anti-Reaper weaponry and shielding, with a VI that keeps it locked away unless a new Reaper invasion is under way and the spacefaring species of the day agree that it's needed. The EC monologue doesn't seem to hint at much self-restraint, or even a realization that self-restraint could prove problematic.

 

I think Control is probably the least speculative of the endings, in that we know that AI-Shepard is going to have a major role in the galaxy's future and get a general idea of its priorities. Destroy doesn't really tell us what the surviving species are likely to do beyond reconstruction, and the Synthesis techno-utopia is only broadly sketched with EDI specifically saying that she doesn't know where it might lead.

[SwobyJ]

He is a Reaper. Reaper is just a label.

[CrutchCricket]

He is a Reaper. Reaper is just a label.

 

And we do know what the problem with labels is, right?

 

I think Control is probably the least speculative of the endings, in that we know that AI-Shepard is going to have a major role in the galaxy's future and get a general idea of its priorities.

 

I don't think that's a given at all, despite the heavy-handedness of the epilogue speech. I find it hard to believe that anything so advanced would care to chain itself to babysitting organics for eternity. See my thread Control: Explained. Link in the sig (it's also on the front page of this section for the moment).

[SwobyJ]

EDIT: Nevermind. Don't want to get into this.

[CosmicGnosis]

As much as it galls me to even come close to actually defending this atrocity, making an appeal to entropy isn't a very good argument since nothing can escape it or prevent it. So the conclusion "x fails because it doesn't address entropy" is a flawed and useless one.

 

Sorry for the late reply. I actually suspect that Synthesis can eventually address the entropy problem. The choice is about breaking the chains that bind us to Nature's laws. When those chains are broken, we vanquish the impossible. What can a Synthesis civilization achieve in a billion years? Likely far more than what the Catalyst achieved.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Sorry for the late reply. I actually suspect that Synthesis can eventually address the entropy problem. The choice is about breaking the chains that bind us to Nature's laws. When those chains are broken, we vanquish the impossible. What can a Synthesis civilization achieve in a billion years? Likely far more than what the Catalyst achieved.

 

Wishful thinking and head canon. Synthesis is still subject to the laws of nature.

[CosmicGnosis]

Wishful thinking and head canon. Synthesis is still subject to the laws of nature.

 

Haven't we established that almost everything about the ending is headcanon? There is no universal agreement on what any of it means. Some think it means nothing, that the whole thing is garbage. 

 

Personally, I like the fact that the Reapers were right to some degree. Why? Because it's actually consistent with the Lovecraftian view of the world that the Reapers represent, that cynical and soul-crushingly depressing philosophy known as Cosmicism. But I'm also pleased that this philosophy is subverted in the grandest way by Synthesis. Even Destroy subverts it, if you have the naive hope that organic life will not be doomed to everlasting irrelevancy. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Perhaps people need to be reminded of what Cosmicism is. These quotes are taken from Wikipedia:

 

The philosophy of Cosmicism states that there is no recognizable divine presence, such as a god in the universe, and that humans are particularly insignificant in the larger scheme of intergalactic existence, and perhaps are just a small species projecting their own mental idolatries onto the vast cosmos, ever susceptible to being wiped from existence at any moment. This also suggested that the majority of undiscerning humanity are creatures with the same significance as insects and plants, who, in their small, visionless and unimportant nature, do not recognize a much greater struggle between greater forces.

 

Perhaps the most prominent theme in Cosmicism is the utter insignificance of humanity. Lovecraft believed that "the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles..."

 

For example, in Lovecraft's Cthulhu stories, it is not so much the absence of meaning that causes terror for the protagonists as it is their discovery that they have absolutely no power to effect any change in the vast, indifferent, and ultimately incomprehensible universe that surrounds them. Whatever meaning or purpose may or may not be invested in the actions of the cosmic beings in Lovecraft's stories is completely inaccessible to the human characters, in the way an amoeba (for example) is completely unequipped to grasp the concepts that drive human behavior.

 

Common themes related to Cosmicism in Lovecraft's fiction are the insignificance of humanity in the universe and the search for knowledge ending in disaster.

 

And this quote is directly contradicted by the themes of Synthesis:

 

"One seeks forbidden knowledge, whether wittingly or, more likely, unwittingly, but one may not know till it is too late... The knowledge, once gained, is too great for the mind of man. It is Promethean, Faustian knowledge. Knowledge that destroys in the moment of enlightenment, a Gnosis of damnation, not of salvation."

[Obadiah]

Hahahaha.... that last quote reads like what happened to players when they discovered why the Reapers were attacking.

[CosmicGnosis]

Hahahaha.... that last quote reads like what happened to players when they discovered why the Reapers were attacking.

And unfortunately, the whole scene should have been presented differently. Even the Extended Cut doesn't convey these ideas very clearly, although it's a lot better than the original version.

[Obadiah]

I don't know if the scene really needed to be changed a WHOLE lot. Add in a challenge/response about the Geth, an extra few lines to give Synthesis a more descriptive explanation, maybe a chance to let Shepard vent some about how wrong the Catalayst is - at the end of it players would still be faced with an emotionless entity that sought to solve a problem that some players don't believe with a solution they hate, and they'd be stuck with a choice they don't want.

Your quotes put it a lot better than I could, but I took it for what it was - challenging a god, being forced to assume its horrible responsibility, and being given an ungodly choice (but really I didn't think the choices in context were that bad either).

Bunch of players would still want a different ending.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes, we would still want a different ending, because your ideas for the ending aren't about "tough choices" because it is still the same BS ending: You die, the relays explode, and the Normandy crashes. The only real difference is the color of the explosions on your screen. If you were really good at gathering war assets you got to take a 1/4 second gasp of air in the red one.

 

In all of them you still had to listen to Starjar spew a bunch of nonsense, and there was still a BS slide show that shows you how wonderful everything is in every ending no matter what you do. 

 

It would have been the same with the DE plot. 200 years to solve it or sacrifice humanity. It was the end of the series. Who the f*** cares? Bye bye Reapers. 

[Bardox9]

I think people are over thinking this... Synthesis bad, Control bad, Boom Boom Reapers... good.

[CosmicGnosis]

If someone at BioWare decided to deliberately pair up "unlimited access to knowledge" with the greatest moral atrocity ever committed, then I would probably hate the ending. To deliberately equate knowledge with evil is a loathsome traditional concept. However, I seriously doubt that anyone at BioWare believes in this philosophy. It just doesn't make sense for them to believe it. Therefore, I think the unfortunate implications of the Synthesis ending are accidental. Synthesis is not about hating humanity and diversity. It's about adding to our humanity. It's about celebrating the individuality of every sapient being. I don't consider David Bowman's evolution in 2001: A Space Odyssey to be an anti-human statement. Rather, it's simply an acknowledgement that ****** sapiens doesn't have to be the end for us. I think Synthesis is intended to have a similar message.

 

EDIT: Well, there you go, BSN. The name of our species is censored on this site.