16178 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Raziel]

Overall, I felt like her character was well developed. and as far as the romance arc goes? I was fine with it, in the end I felt as if my Inquisitor had made the right choice. there was solid depth to her. I suppose I will go through one more time. and Romance Cassandra to see how that story arc ends. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

http://stockyart.tum...week-and-drew-a

[Pevesh]

 

From the twitter thread

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 37m37 minutes ago Seattle, WA

I've seen several articles about queerness in DA:I. I keep biting my tongue and wanting to take issue with Josephine's invisibility in them.

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 36m36 minutes ago

I worry that it comes across as self-centeredness for me to protest this, but bi erasure *IS* such an issue that I need to say it.

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 35m35 minutes ago

Josephine is bisexual. This doesn't disappear if your Inquisitor is male or if she's unromanced (and thereby attracted to Blackwall).

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 34m34 minutes ago

That aspect of her identity is important, and @Sylvf1 did an amazing job of writing it respectfully, and I hate seeing it overlooked.

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 32m32 minutes ago

I know bisexual characters aren't strictly novel in DA (which is A+), but that doesn't make other characters' sexualities more "important."

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 31m31 minutes ago Seattle, WA

CASE IN POINT: Josie doesn't balk at the idea of a relationship with Leliana because "ew girls" but because "EW SHE'S BASICALLY MY SISTER."

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 31m31 minutes ago Seattle, WA

And if that's too subtle, and you needed her to go "but you know I still like ladies just not that lady" then dang, people. Dang.

 

(User)

@SimplyAllegra @Sylvf1 that's wrong, you're right to point that out.

 

Allan Schumacher ‏@AllanSchumacher 24m24 minutes ago

 @SimplyAllegra It was why I supported our move away from all bisexual romances. It came up a lot when I was at PAX 2013.

 

Allegra Clark ‏@SimplyAllegra 24m24 minutes ago Seattle, WA

@AllanSchumacher Yeah, how bisexuality could be interpreted as playersexuality, which is unfair. I appreciated the change as well.

 

I just wanted to post this here since I don't have a twitter account and that's a chance Allegra might see this here: Thanks, Allegra (and the other Bioware devs, too, of course) for really standing up for bisexual players. Thanks as well to Cribbian for posting this. It really means a lot to people like me. I'm bisexual but most people I know don't even realize it. It's difficult to find a chance to bring it up because the only person I've ever dated is a man (I'm a woman) so it's not like I can talk about past relationships I've had with women, and I always feel awkward talking about who I find attractive (this includes men I find attractive). I'd pretty much just have to blurt out of nowhere "Hey, I'm bisexual, BTW" all the time and even then people tend to argue with you about it anyways. It's made me feel very inadequate and like I'm not "really" bisexual so it always hurts when I see people complaining about how some character is not really bisexual or is a bad bisexual or whatever. Seeing stuff like this from devs or other players is always really nice and helps a lot.

 

While I can see that some players might prefer a bisexual character who makes their sexuality clear by speaking up about past relationships to a character like Josephine, Josephine is still equally bi regardless of whether you are romancing her with a male or a female character. I don't think most people mean badly when they say things like this but they don't realize how much complaining that a character isn't bi "enough" is very similar to complaints real bisexual people get that they are "straight" when in a heterosexual relationship and that they are "gay" when in a homosexual relationship and never bi...or not bi because they haven't been in a relationship with someone of a particular sex.

 

I don't when people say things like "I would like it if Bioware who include more bi characters who are like [X]" but it is hurtful when they say a specific character, like Josephine, is not bi or is a bad bisexual character, because there are bi people like that in real life.

 

Anyways, sorry about rambling on about myself so like. That was a very complicated way of saying "Thank you, Allegra. Posts and tweets like this really make a difference." Back to the wonderfulness that is Josephine...

 

I think what most of the complainers mean was "I did not get to see her boobies." They just don't phrase it that way for fear of criticism or being mocked. 

 

She's got no less content than some of the other LIs, and the scenes she did get are are as well written and acted as the others. The only difference is that she didn't get a sex scene. And really, that's what they are complaining about.

To play Devil's advocate: There are two complaints about Josephine's romance that I tend to see here and one of those is indeed that people don't appreciate the lack of sex scene, but I think others also don't like the lack of drama and how sweet it is. So you are right that is the case for some people, but for others that isn't the full story or even related to why they find it boring, I think.

 

Personally, I don't mind the lack of a sex scene and I love how sweet and drama-free the romance is. Plus, we've never had a companion who is a diplomat and bureaucrat rather than some kind of fighter, before, and we get a cuddle scene. A cuddle scene people! Not many Bioware romance have had those. Okay...perhaps I am too excited about the cuddling. In short: I really, really love Josephine's romance.

[rekkaman]

I really don't know how to take this string of tweets. 

 

On one hand, I want to be supportive of what she says about bisexual erasure being a problem. 

On the other hand, I am depressed because she pretty much did what Gaider did. 

I have not romanced her yet but is there any in game confirmation she likes women romantically if you play a male inquisitor ?

[Cribbian]

Personally, I don't mind the lack of a sex scene and I love how sweet and drama-free the romance is. Plus, we've never had a companion who is a diplomat and bureaucrat rather than some kind of fighter, before, and we get a cuddle scene. A cuddle scene people! Not many Bioware romance have had those. Okay...perhaps I am too excited about the cuddling. In short: I really, really love Josephine's romance.

 

One thing I would have liked for this scene is a different outfit for Josie. A beautiful nightgown perhaps. I assume that the scene takes place during the evening/night. The inquisitor is wearing pyjamas afterall

[Pevesh]

One thing I would have liked for this scene is a different outfit for Josie. A beautiful nightgown perhaps. I assume that the scene takes place during the evening/night. The inquisitor is wearing pyjamas afterall

Brilliant idea.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I have not romanced her yet but is there any in game confirmation she likes women romantically if you play a male inquisitor ?

Not that I can recall. 

[Basement Cat]

I have not romanced her yet but is there any in game confirmation she likes women romantically if you play a male inquisitor ?

None. She only ever shows interest in males. She likes Blackwall if neither is romanced, and if the Inquisitor romances Iron Bull there is a scene where Josephine is very.. appreciative of Bull's physique.

 

So no, you wouldn't know she was bisexual unless you try romancing her. 

[AresKeith]

None. She only ever shows interest in males. She likes Blackwall if neither is romanced, and if the Inquisitor romances Iron Bull there is a scene where Josephine is very.. appreciative of Bull's physique.

 

So no, you wouldn't know she was bisexual unless you try romancing her. 

 

She apparently gives Scout Harding flowers 

[Basement Cat]

She apparently gives Scout Harding flowers 

Really? Where does it come up?

[Aimi]

Really? Where does it come up?

Random "what's up" with Harding. Harding will say "She's so lovely." after relating the story.

I don't think that that's actually romantic interest, it's just something that Super Nice Diplomat Lady does for people. Like making baked goods for new neighbors.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I can see how that might suck. And from a RP perspective it's always nice to be able to headcanon things about your PC. But from the perspective of a writer who feels strongly about authorial intent, I don't mind Gaider clarifying things about his NPC . The NPC have lives of their own, personalities and traits the writers put a great deal of effort into illuminating. All we can do as consumers of art is get to know and appreciate them - both the good and the ugly - for what they are, rather than what we'd like them to be.

First, it wasn't Gaider's NPC so he really shouldn't speak for other writers about their characters. Merrill was the creation of Mary Kirby, not David Gaider.

 

Second, Gaider's stance on the whole thing has flip flopped. For a while he was completely fine with people doing that, even condoning it in posts. But then he did a complete 180 on his stance and is now firmly against it. 

 

 

Random "what's up" with Harding. Harding will say "She's so lovely." after relating the story.

I don't think that that's actually romantic interest, it's just something that Super Nice Diplomat Lady does for people. Like making baked goods for new neighbors.

Yeah, I took it as a token of thanks for all the hard work and risk Harding does for the Inquisition. 

Plus Harding and Sera may become a couple according to apparently there being a note about it in Sera's book. 

[Pevesh]

First, it wasn't Gaider's NPC so he really shouldn't speak for other writers about their characters. Merrill was the creation of Mary Kirby, not David Gaider.

 

Second, Gaider's stance on the whole thing has flip flopped. For a while he was completely fine with people doing that, even condoning it in posts. But then he did a complete 180 on his stance and is now firmly against it. 

 

I wouldn't worry about what Gaider said too much. Merrill being bisexual, which you could tell from the game itself since you could romance her regardless of Hawke's gender, doesn't prevent her from being demisexual either.

 

Yeah, I took it as a token of thanks for all the hard work and risk Harding does for the Inquisition. 

Plus Harding and Sera may become a couple according to apparently there being a note about it in Sera's book.

Oooh, Harding and Sera can get together? That is so cute. I got to say, I think I'd prefer Josephine and Harding as a couple to Josephine and Blackwall. Of course, I just love Harding, though, so I'm biased.

[Tarlonniel]

It's Dagna that Sera mentions in her journal, not Harding.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am just curious about something.

 

How do you think the Montilyets will view Josephine's romantic relationship with the Inquisitor ? Especially if the Inquisitor is non-human and/or a mage ?

 

I mean the Montilyets are nobility in Antiva, sort of, they are a Merchant Family so I am wondering how would a noble family look at their daughter, who is slated to be the heir of the house, in a relationship with a non human and/or a mage ? 

 

I'm sure it would be scandalous to say the least. It would be like Queen Anora getting it on with non-male Couslands, sort of. 

 

Thoughts ?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wouldn't worry about what Gaider said too much. Merrill being bisexual, which you could tell from the game itself since you could romance her regardless of Hawke's gender, doesn't prevent her from being demisexual either.

He, and now Allegra, were very adamant about the character being bisexual only.

So my dev-supported headcanon is now only semi-dev-supported headcanon since there are conflicting statements. 

 

I am just curious about something.

 

How do you think the Montilyets will view Josephine's romantic relationship with the Inquisitor ? Especially if the Inquisitor is non-human and/or a mage ?

 

I mean the Montilyets are nobility in Antiva, sort of, they are a Merchant Family so I am wondering how would a noble family look at their daughter, who is slated to be the heir of the house, in a relationship with a non human and/or a mage ? 

 

I'm sure it would be scandalous to say the least. It would be like Queen Anora getting it on with non-male Couslands, sort of. 

 

Thoughts ?

We had a discussion about this earlier, and overall we concluded that the Montilyet family would support Josephine's relationship with the Inquisition, regardless of race/gender/etc. Their daughter is in a relationship with pretty much the most powerful person in Southern Thedas if not all of Thedas, and is the one who helps them get out of debt. For a merchant family, that is the deal of an age. Plus I would hope that their daughter being in love would be a big reason for supporting it too. Lord Otranto annulled the engagement because of it, so we know that at least some Antivans have the mindset of love being the most important thing in a relationship. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Well post ending I doubt anyone is going to care.

 

Especially cause you have the leader of Orlais in your pocket, can be a friend and ally of the divine, saved the freaking world, and helped their family.

As things go that really smooths things over with the in laws.

 

Plus from what Josie says of her folks I think they would also like that she was in love with the person as well.

[Han Shot First]

I am just curious about something.

 

How do you think the Montilyets will view Josephine's romantic relationship with the Inquisitor ? Especially if the Inquisitor is non-human and/or a mage ?

 

I mean the Montilyets are nobility in Antiva, sort of, they are a Merchant Family so I am wondering how would a noble family look at their daughter, who is slated to be the heir of the house, in a relationship with a non human and/or a mage ? 

 

I'm sure it would be scandalous to say the least. It would be like Queen Anora getting it on with non-male Couslands, sort of. 

 

Thoughts ?

 

The scandal of a pairing with a non-human aside...the Inquisitor ends up as one of the most politically powerful people in Thedas. While he or she might not come from a noble pedigree, he/she has amassed more power than probably most Dukes or Teryns and some kings or queens.The Inquisitor also is practically being worshiped (whether they like it or not) by the more pious Andrastians as something like a prophet. I think that even in spite of the scandal that a marriage between Josephine and the Inquisitor would be highly advantageous to House Montilyet. 

 

Of course a human noble would be ideal, but I don't think a non-human would make them any more inclined to oppose it. 

 

The bigger issue I think for House Montillyet would potentially be the gender of the Inquisitor. If the Inquisitor is female Josephine would likely to have step aside to let one of her younger sisters or brothers inherit their Antivan holdings. Whoever inherits would need to produce an heir. The alternative is an arrangement like wedded Alistair and Anora with the romanced female Warden as royal paramour. I would think for Josephine at least the first option would be more attractive.

[Aimi]

If the Inquisitor is female Josephine would likely to have step aside to let one of her younger sisters or brothers inherit their Antivan holdings. Whoever inherits would need to produce an heir.

Maybe. Depends on the way the inheritance works.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

 

The bigger issue I think for House Montillyet would potentially be the gender of the Inquisitor. If the Inquisitor is female Josephine would likely to have step aside to let one of her younger sisters or brothers inherit their Antivan holdings. Whoever inherits would need to produce an heir. The alternative is an arrangement like wedded Alistair and Anora with the romanced female Warden as royal paramour. I would think for Josephine at least the first option would be more attractive.

 

I don't see why she would need to step aside, surely one of her siblings would just be her heir instead of having a child as an heir? Or maybe she would be able to choose an heir maybe a favourite niece or nephew? I mean Empress Celene has no children so her cousin Gaspard is her heir. 

[Aimi]

I don't see why she would need to step aside, surely one of her siblings would just be her heir instead of having a child as an heir? Or maybe she would be able to choose an heir maybe a favourite niece or nephew? I mean Empress Celene has no children so her cousin Gaspard is her heir.

Depends on how inheritance law works in this particular instance, and we don't know anything about it in Thedas. Most fantasy authors don't bother to elaborate a structure of inheritance law - let alone several such structures as existed in medieval Europe - because it can be kind of difficult. Nobody wants to wade through the Pactvs Legis Salicae just to write a video game. So inheritance works as is convenient to the writer at the time.

Antiva and Orlais are different countries, and succeeding to the Orlesian crown is not the same thing as inheriting a parent's petty aristocratic title and property. So the example of Celene and Gaspard doesn't really tell us anything.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Depends on how inheritance law works in this particular instance, and we don't know anything about it in Thedas. Most fantasy authors don't bother to elaborate a structure of inheritance law - let alone several such structures as existed in medieval Europe - because it can be kind of difficult. Nobody wants to wade through the Pactvs Legis Salicae just to write a video game. So inheritance works as is convenient to the writer at the time.

Antiva and Orlais are different countries, and succeeding to the Orlesian crown is not the same thing as inheriting a parent's petty aristocratic title and property. So the example of Celene and Gaspard doesn't really tell us anything.

 

True enough we don't have enough information to know would happen, I was merely speculating. But still it doesn't seem logical to me that Josephine would have to produce an heir in order to inherit from her parents unless her parents choose to disinherit her over it (which of course is possible).

[Qunquistador]

The bigger issue I think for House Montillyet would potentially be the gender of the Inquisitor. If the Inquisitor is female Josephine would likely to have step aside to let one of her younger sisters or brothers inherit their Antivan holdings. Whoever inherits would need to produce an heir. The alternative is an arrangement like wedded Alistair and Anora with the romanced female Warden as royal paramour. I would think for Josephine at least the first option would be more attractive.

I's already established that that's not inheritance works in Josephine's family. She specifically says, the head of the house is the person who proves themselves to be most capable, not the one who is oldest. It's not a role that's inherited, it's earned. As far as who inherits assets, other siblings are entitled to the family's holdings even if they aren't the head of it. So it stands to reason that, in the absence of progeny, Josephine would one day be looking to name one of her siblings children as head of their house.

[In Exile]

I just wanted to post this here since I don't have a twitter account and that's a chance Allegra might see this here: Thanks, Allegra (and the other Bioware devs, too, of course) for really standing up for bisexual players. Thanks as well to Cribbian for posting this. It really means a lot to people like me. I'm bisexual but most people I know don't even realize it. It's difficult to find a chance to bring it up because the only person I've ever dated is a man (I'm a woman) so it's not like I can talk about past relationships I've had with women, and I always feel awkward talking about who I find attractive (this includes men I find attractive). I'd pretty much just have to blurt out of nowhere "Hey, I'm bisexual, BTW" all the time and even then people tend to argue with you about it anyways. It's made me feel very inadequate and like I'm not "really" bisexual so it always hurts when I see people complaining about how some character is not really bisexual or is a bad bisexual or whatever. Seeing stuff like this from devs or other players is always really nice and helps a lot.

While I can see that some players might prefer a bisexual character who makes their sexuality clear by speaking up about past relationships to a character like Josephine, Josephine is still equally bi regardless of whether you are romancing her with a male or a female character. I don't think most people mean badly when they say things like this but they don't realize how much complaining that a character isn't bi "enough" is very similar to complaints real bisexual people get that they are "straight" when in a heterosexual relationship and that they are "gay" when in a homosexual relationship and never bi...or not bi because they haven't been in a relationship with someone of a particular sex.

I don't when people say things like "I would like it if Bioware who include more bi characters who are like [X]" but it is hurtful when they say a specific character, like Josephine, is not bi or is a bad bisexual character, because there are bi people like that in real life.

Anyways, sorry about rambling on about myself so like. That was a very complicated way of saying "Thank you, Allegra. Posts and tweets like this really make a difference." Back to the wonderfulness that is Josephine...

To play Devil's advocate: There are two complaints about Josephine's romance that I tend to see here and one of those is indeed that people don't appreciate the lack of sex scene, but I think others also don't like the lack of drama and how sweet it is. So you are right that is the case for some people, but for others that isn't the full story or even related to why they find it boring, I think.

Personally, I don't mind the lack of a sex scene and I love how sweet and drama-free the romance is. Plus, we've never had a companion who is a diplomat and bureaucrat rather than some kind of fighter, before, and we get a cuddle scene. A cuddle scene people! Not many Bioware romance have had those. Okay...perhaps I am too excited about the cuddling. In short: I really, really love Josephine's romance.

Let me say that I understand how you feel. I've had a bit more of a colourful dating history so I've seen reactions on both sides, and let me tell you that the assumptions you can hit are quite depressing. As I've said in other threads: we don't need to wear a T-shirt that says "I'm bi!" to count. And that's not even getting into things like being into both genders doesn't mean being into everyone of that gender. I was accused of that one on more than one occasion by someone who was just not my type. And in a supposedly welcoming space too.

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled Josie conversation.

To get on topic, I think part of the reason that people think Josie is boring is that her cunning is always so subtly portrayed. Let's take one scene at Haven at the start with the noble who wants to evict the Inquisition from Haven. She plays off the Inquisitor perfectly - regardless of what you say she has an immediate answer to take command of the situation and guide the conversation to a rapid resolution. She eschews violence because she holds herself responsible for taking a life and it makes her a welcome breath of fresh air from the usual borderline psycho companions we have. I mean, I love the IB, but he's so gleefully into murder that it's a bit maladjusted. Josie's biggest failing is that she's a real person in a setting that doesn't want real people in it.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To get on topic, I think part of the reason that people think Josie is boring is that her cunning is always so subtly portrayed. Let's take one scene at Haven at the start with the noble who wants to evict the Inquisition from Haven. She plays off the Inquisitor perfectly - regardless of what you say she has an immediate answer to take command of the situation and guide the conversation to a rapid resolution. She eschews violence because she holds herself responsible for taking a life and it makes her a welcome breath of fresh air from the usual borderline psycho companions we have. I mean, I love the IB, but he's so gleefully into murder that it's a bit maladjusted. Josie's biggest failing is that she's a real person in a setting that doesn't want real people in it.

 

Josephine is boring in the same way a diplomat in an embassy or a global organization like United Nations is boring. Which means she will be boring until you need her to get your Inquisitor's arse out of trouble or to make a deal somewhere. 

 

Josephine as a character is not boring per say. You just have to be into things like international relations, politics and what have you to get her as a character. Its like Vivienne in that if you be into things like congress politics, the political game, you will find it difficult to value her. 

 

Furthermore, Josephine is like Bethany and Kaidan. In that they are both somewhat normal people. I mean, one is nobility, another a mage and the last one can use space magic and technology but their personalities are that of a normal person. Most people get into a game wanting drama so when they come across people with normal personalities, they tend to brush them off. 

 

 

The scandal of a pairing with a non-human aside...the Inquisitor ends up as one of the most politically powerful people in Thedas. While he or she might not come from a noble pedigree, he/she has amassed more power than probably most Dukes or Teryns and some kings or queens.The Inquisitor also is practically being worshiped (whether they like it or not) by the more pious Andrastians as something like a prophet. I think that even in spite of the scandal that a marriage between Josephine and the Inquisitor would be highly advantageous to House Montilyet. 

 

Of course a human noble would be ideal, but I don't think a non-human would make them any more inclined to oppose it. 

 

My male Lavellan has solved this issue somewhat by being a Necromancer. I doubt his future in laws are going to be arguing with him very much, especially if they know what sort of magic he can do. 

 

 

 

I's already established that that's not inheritance works in Josephine's family. She specifically says, the head of the house is the person who proves themselves to be most capable, not the one who is oldest. It's not a role that's inherited, it's earned. As far as who inherits assets, other siblings are entitled to the family's holdings even if they aren't the head of it. So it stands to reason that, in the absence of progeny, Josephine would one day be looking to name one of her siblings children as head of their house.

 

Yep, this is how it would work. Some Eastern cultures practice this type of inheritance and family head selections and this is how it works there.