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[SmilesJA]

 

The citizens of Val Royeaux knows the score

 

That's not far from the truth.

[Xilizhra]

Why would that matter?

It might not, but it does mean that we can't say for certain that Otranto and the Inquisitor were fighting ridiculously.

[SardaukarElite]

That's...not a thing. Partially because he does screw up, several times, and those screwups are never exploited.

It's clearly not meant to be seen as a realistic duel, because of all the goofy theatrical flourishes, the slow pace, the ample opportunities to strike that were never taken (on both sides), and so on. The same problem exists with basically every movie duelist ever, from Errol Flynn in Captain Blood to Pierce Brosnan in Die Another Day.
 

 

That. They're supposed to be having a real fight, and that fight is being depicted using the conventions of Errol Flynn fighting Claude Rains. If they were gunslingers it'd be six minutes of staring and fantastic music followed by a single shot. If they were fighter aces there would be at least one instance of stalling to let a pursuer overshoot.

 

If it was in game mechanics then there'd be thirty seconds of teleporting, explosions and health bar whittling.

[LobselVith8]

Don't feel bad. Rainier doesn't deserve any sympathy after what he has done.

I think Blackwall has changed significantly enough from who he once was to deserve sympathy.

[erikdlan]

That. They're supposed to be having a real fight, and that fight is being depicted using the conventions of Errol Flynn fighting Claude Rains. If they were gunslingers it'd be six minutes of staring and fantastic music followed by a single shot. If they were fighter aces there would be at least one instance of stalling to let a pursuer overshoot.

 

If it was in game mechanics then there'd be thirty seconds of teleporting, explosions and health bar whittling.

This. I think the duel never intended to be a depiction of realistic fencing, but a reference to swashbuckling stories.

Josie's romance reminds me of the kind of love stories you could see in old fashioned movies when Hollywood couldn't touch the subject of sex. Hugging while watching the chimney fire, fighting a sword duel, kissing in the garden,... That's why I'm not sure to call Josie a Disney princess. She seems to me a character in some Errol Flynn film or something like that... And I love it!

I understand they are quite absurd and unrealistic but I'm a sucker for swashbuckling and pirate stories. I'm an older man now, closer to the forties that I would like, but give me some Crimson Pirate, some Princess Bride, some Captain Blood and you will see the same silly expression I had in my ten years old face.
 

[Rundy Bundles]

Josie's romance reminds me of the kind of love stories you could see in old fashioned movies when Hollywood couldn't touch the subject of sex. Hugging while watching the chimney fire, fighting a sword duel, kissing in the garden,... That's why I'm not sure to call Josie a Disney princess. She seems to me a character in some Errol Flynn film or something like that... And I love it!
I understand they are quite absurd and unrealistic but I'm a sucker for swashbuckling and pirate stories. I'm an older man now, closer to the forties that I would like, but give me some Crimson Pirate, some Princess Bride, some Captain Blood and you will see the same silly expression I had in my ten years old face.

You and me both. I do love a good old fashioned/classic romance story. They make me smile.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

That's not far from the truth.

Yep, she is two steps down from Andraste since we as Andraste's herald would be one step down from her. 

 

 

I think Blackwall has changed significantly enough from who he once was to deserve sympathy.

Blackwall died years ago defending a Grey Warden prospect. This...man we have with us is not Blackwall. 

And no, he hasn't.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This. I think the duel never intended to be a depiction of realistic fencing, but a reference to swashbuckling stories.

Josie's romance reminds me of the kind of love stories you could see in old fashioned movies when Hollywood couldn't touch the subject of sex. Hugging while watching the chimney fire, fighting a sword duel, kissing in the garden,... That's why I'm not sure to call Josie a Disney princess. She seems to me a character in some Errol Flynn film or something like that... And I love it!

I understand they are quite absurd and unrealistic but I'm a sucker for swashbuckling and pirate stories. I'm an older man now, closer to the forties that I would like, but give me some Crimson Pirate, some Princess Bride, some Captain Blood and you will see the same silly expression I had in my ten years old face.
 

I can definitely see where you are coming from with this. 

[Xilizhra]

Blackwall died years ago defending a Grey Warden prospect. This...man we have with us is not Blackwall. 

Not the original Blackwall, but the world can afford more than one person with that name.

 

 

And no, he hasn't.

So, he's still a corrupt captain in the Orlesian army accidentally killing children?

[LobselVith8]

Blackwall died years ago defending a Grey Warden prospect. This...man we have with us is not Blackwall.
And no, he hasn't.

As he says, he can see it as a title, so I consider him to be Blackwall. I also think it's a little absurd to consider Blackwall to be the same man he was before the tragedy. If Blackwall and Josephine ended up together after the crisis (assuming neither one was romanced by the Inquisitor), I would be happy for them.

[TK514]

I agree with Lob and Xil. The Blackwall of the Inquisition is not the same man he was before the atrocity.

If Josephine, an intelligent, strong, and capable individual who hundreds, if not thousands, rely on for her ability to judge character and act on that assessment can forgive him and accept him in spite of his past, who am I to say she's wrong or, as importantly, wish her sorrow?

[Lukas Trevelyan]

While this is more about Blackwall and less about Josie I feel like giving my input about all this.

I really dislike what 'Blackwall' has done, he lied all these years, pretending to be someone he's not even close to being and ran away from his crimes for too long. He lies in the inquisitor's face for a few months, even when the inquisitor befriends him. The only redeeming quality he had in my eyes is that he finally faced his crimes, even then, after you free him he wants to continue using Blackwall as his title. That's a big no for me. He went from starting to become a better person, back to someone who's just running away from himself again. Why can't he accept the fact that he's Thom Rainier and continue to right his wrongs through his service to the inquisition? Must he continue using the name of an honorable man who he disguised himself as for so long? Must he continue hiding his true self behind this so called "title"?

I am not, nor is Josie, without mercy. I can see what Thom is trying to do, and while I still disapprove, he is forgiven to an extent. Whether or not I will trust him ever again, or truly forgive him is up to his actions.

 

[Qunquistador]

So, he's still a corrupt captain in the Orlesian army accidentally killing children?

Oh yay, Thom talk, mucking up this nice thread again.  You don't accidentally kill someone in an attack where the intent was to kill everyone. Thom realized there were children in the entourage right before the assault, this is known after Cole reads his memories, and had a choice to call the attack off. He made the choice not to, to save his own hide. 

 

He didn't accidentally kill children. He purposefully killed children, who were there coincidentally (he's the Resolve, afterall). He made the choice to kill them along with innocent adults (like the mother of those children), whose lives should also matter as much as the children's. Moving on.

 

People change in that they grow older and wiser, if they're lucky. They adapt and modify their behavior, if they're smart, which is what Thom did. However, the core of who we are, our personalities, our souls (if you believe in such things) - those things don't really change. 

 

You have Nazis who escaped prosecution after WWII and hid their identities while living all over the world. Were they killing while they hid? No, most were law abiding citizens. Some were even exemplary citizens. Does that mean they truly changed or that they adapted to their new circumstance? How much do you think that matters to the victims and families of those people they killed?

 

I let Thom out of jail after a long debate and sent him to the Grey Wardens, where he might do some good or simply not make it all, then at the very end he makes light of his lie by saying that it was a good thing he wasn't a Grey Warden after all because of Cory's ability to body hop. To me, that his who he is - a weak minded and morally flexible man who can justify anything so long as it suits his purpose.

 

I only wish I could have sent him packing for Weisshaupt right then and there for having the chutzpah to say that to my quiz.

[Qunquistador]

If Josephine, an intelligent, strong, and capable individual who hundreds, if not thousands, rely on for her ability to judge character and act on that assessment can forgive him and accept him in spite of his past, who am I to say she's wrong or, as importantly, wish her sorrow?

 

Josephine can hardly be used as a defense here. Especially when Leliana all but says she's naive when it comes to judging matters of the heart. None of that is relevant to my playthrough, in any case.

 

My romanced Josephine doesn't even want to think of him and his lies. She sounds far more disturbed by Thom than forgiving of him. She even says she never truly met Blackwall. Sera, the noble hater, on the other hand, forgives him for his crimes against the nobility. Not hard to figure out why.

[Xilizhra]

Oh yay, Thom talk, mucking up this nice thread again.  You don't accidentally kill someone in an attack where the intent was to kill everyone. Thom realized there were children in the entourage right before the assault, this is known after Cole reads his memories, and had a choice to call the attack off. He made the choice not to, to save his own hide. 

 

He didn't accidentally kill children. He purposefully killed children, who were there coincidentally (he's the Resolve, afterall). He made the choice to kill them along with innocent adults (like the mother of those children), whose lives should also matter as much as the children's. Moving on.

 

People change in that they grow older and wiser, if they're lucky. They adapt and modify their behavior, if they're smart, which is what Thom did. However, the core of who we are, our personalities, our souls (if you believe in such things) - those things don't really change. 

 

You have Nazis who escaped prosecution after WWII and hid their identities while living all over the world. Were they killing while they hid? No, most were law abiding citizens. Some were even exemplary citizens. Does that mean they truly changed or that they adapted to their new circumstance? How much do you think that matters to the victims and families of those people they killed?

 

I let Thom out of jail after a long debate and sent him to the Grey Wardens, where he might do some good or simply not make it all, then at the very end he makes light of his lie by saying that it was a good thing he wasn't a Grey Warden after all because of Cory's ability to body hop. To me, that his who he is - a weak minded and morally flexible man who can justify anything so long as it suits his purpose.

 

I only wish I could have sent him packing for Weisshaupt right then and there for having the chutzpah to say that to my quiz.

I'll need to reach that point in the game again to double-check your first claim, but for the next one, there's a reason why we don't let crime victims sit on juries to judge someone for that crime: justice should be meted out by the impartial. And I disagree with you that people can't truly change the core of their personality; it's rare, but it can definitely happen.

[TK514]

The difference between Blackwall and your generic internet Nazi baby-eater is that Blackwall showed remorse and actually reviled who he used to be.  And Leliana is hardly the golden source of truth on all matters.

 

That Josephine can forgive him, and love him, is enough for me.  That she may not have in your game is unfortunate, but hardly universal.

[erikdlan]

I don't think Blackwall and Josie could be happy together after all the lies came to light. Their story was something close to a platonic, courtly love, so, even trying to put Blackwall acts in the best light and even judging Blackwall in the most forgiving ways, I think Josephine and Blackwall relation could hardly continue. Courtly love is about the ideal of love, not about dealing with forgiving lies, guilt, repentance and redemption. In my mind to have any small chance to go on, it should turn into a much realistic and mature relation. Even if they try something like that, it would be very difficult for someone so innocent in love as Josie to solve the issues they could find, and I don't think someone with such self loathing issues as Blackwall could deal with the situations that relation could demand from him to do. For example, do you really thing Blackwall could duel Otranto after all the fuss? Otranto seems to be a decent man, but I doubt he could accept a duel of honor with him. I don't even think Blackwall could challenge Otranto, with all the self hating and repentance issues he has. Would he even find himself worhty of challenging a good man? I believe Blackwall would think Josie would be happier with anyone but him, and in particular happier with Otranto.

[Qunquistador]

I'll need to reach that point in the game again to double-check your first claim, but for the next one, there's a reason why we don't let crime victims sit on juries to judge someone for that crime: justice should be meted out by the impartial. And I disagree with you that people can't truly change the core of their personality; it's rare, but it can definitely happen.

You can also find it in the DA:I wiki in Cole's banter

http://dragonage.wik...i/Cole/Dialogue

Spoiler

Cole: "Mockingbird, mockingbird." Too many voices in the carriage. Maker, they're young.

Cole: If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie. Cold, trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.

Blackwall: Stop. Please.

 

I said nothing of victims judging crimes. However, since you mentioned it, victims are allowed to give impact statements during trials and probation hearings where I come from. We don't disavow a victim's pain and suffering for the sake of complete impartiality. Either way, no one is completely impartial unless they completely lack the ability to empathize with others. 

 

Changing the core of who you are is often something you see in science fiction and comedy or hear about in tabloids, where someone bumps their head and becomes a totally different person because their frontal lobe was damaged or something of that sort. What happens far more often is that people adapt to their circumstances and/or learn from their mistakes. Changing what you do or how you earn your living doesn't change who your are, in my estimation.

 

And to believe that Thom is a radically different person, then you have to believe he was pure evil to begin with and not climbing the proverbial ladder of chaos to come out on top of the grand game. So while I don't believe he enjoyed killing innocent people, I do believe that his propensity to justify his lies and crimes, years after they're committed, speaks to a less than favorable personality. He'll serve the Grey Wardens well, no doubt, moral flexibility is big with them, too . 

 

The difference between Blackwall and your generic internet Nazi baby-eater is that Blackwall showed remorse and actually reviled who he used to be.  And Leliana is hardly the golden source of truth on all matters.

 

That Josephine can forgive him, and love him, is enough for me.  That she may not have in your game is unfortunate, but hardly universal.

I didn't call Thom a "Nazi baby-eater", as you so colorfully put it, but I can see how a sound argument may read that way to one who's sensitive about this issue. I simply don't see someone who reviles "what he used to be". I see a man who reviles the big dogs in the game he used to play. And I have doubts that he would feel that way if he'd come out on top of the game and won that medal he spoke of in prison. 

 

Also, you were using Josephine in defense of Blackwall, as though her forgiveness is a universal game state. That's partially why I said her opinion of him is not a sound defense, when it varies from game to game.

 

Judging from what I've read and the stats I've seen, many (arguably most) players never had Thom's flowers land on Josephine's desk. Hell, I'm sure there are many players who still think Thom is a Grey Warden named Blackwall.

 

The fact that we're not having the same experience while playing a RPG is hardly unfortunate. It's brilliant. That's literally what RPGs are about. YMMV.

 

And no, Leliana is not an authority on all matters.  I'm not sure how Josephine, her good friend whom she spent years getting to know, is synonymous with "all matters", though .

[Rundy Bundles]

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So, he's still a corrupt captain in the Orlesian army accidentally killing children?

As he says, he can see it as a title, so I consider him to be Blackwall. I also think it's a little absurd to consider Blackwall to be the same man he was before the tragedy. If Blackwall and Josephine ended up together after the crisis (assuming neither one was romanced by the Inquisitor), I would be happy for them.

I think you two misunderstood what I meant by "And no, he hasn't."

That was an answer not to "has he changed" but the "has he changed enough to deserve sympathy". I won't deny he has changed, but after what he has done he will never deserve sympathy. The only thing he deserves is the hangman's noose.

 

 

I don't think Blackwall and Josie could be happy together after all the lies came to light. Their story was something close to a platonic, courtly love, so, even trying to put Blackwall acts in the best light and even judging Blackwall in the most forgiving ways, I think Josephine and Blackwall relation could hardly continue. Courtly love is about the ideal of love, not about dealing with forgiving lies, guilt, repentance and redemption. In my mind to have any small chance to go on, it should turn into a much realistic and mature relation. Even if they try something like that, it would be very difficult for someone so innocent in love as Josie to solve the issues they could find, and I don't think someone with such self loathing issues as Blackwall could deal with the situations that relation could demand from him to do. For example, do you really thing Blackwall could duel Otranto after all the fuss? Otranto seems to be a decent man, but I doubt he could accept a duel of honor with him. I don't even think Blackwall could challenge Otranto, with all the self hating and repentance issues he has. Would he even find himself worhty of challenging a good man? I believe Blackwall would think Josie would be happier with anyone but him, and in particular happier with Otranto.

Someone who worked on Josephine told me that essentially this happens. Unlike the Inquisitor, Rainier doesn't duel Otranto to annul the engagement so Josephine marries Otranto to help her family and the courtly love thing ends. 

[Aimi]

That was an answer not to "has he changed" but the "has he changed enough to deserve sympathy". I won't deny he has changed, but after what he has done he will never deserve sympathy. The only thing he deserves is the hangman's noose.

YMMV.

[Xilizhra]

I think you two misunderstood what I meant by "And no, he hasn't."

That was an answer not to "has he changed" but the "has he changed enough to deserve sympathy". I won't deny he has changed, but after what he has done he will never deserve sympathy. The only thing he deserves is the hangman's noose.

So, if you do something horrible, you're automatically doomed to die and you may as well just keep doing horrible things? That doesn't create much incentive for rehabilitation.

[Voragoras]

I think what makes Blackwall deserve sympathy, for me, is that he's clearly remorseful, and he's dedicated his life to making up for what he thinks is a grave injustice. He says in his dialogue with Cole that he never wants to forget what he's done wrong, because he always wants to remember what he's atoning for.

 

He knows that what he did was wrong, and he doesn't make excuses for himself, or try and escape the blame.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So, if you do something horrible, you're automatically doomed to die and you may as well just keep doing horrible things? That doesn't create much incentive for rehabilitation.

No, but you do deserve the consequences for that action. What Rainier did easily warrants the death penalty even by today's standards, thus he deserves that punishment. He can receive less, but that is by the good graces of others.

 

 

I think what makes Blackwall deserve sympathy, for me, is that he's clearly remorseful, and he's dedicated his life to making up for what he thinks is a grave injustice. He says in his dialogue with Cole that he never wants to forget what he's done wrong, because he always wants to remember what he's atoning for.

 

He knows that what he did was wrong, and he doesn't make excuses for himself, or try and escape the blame.

Ignoring the years he masqueraded as someone he wasn't to do exactly that.  

[Xilizhra]

No, but you do deserve the consequences for that action. What Rainier did easily warrants the death penalty even by today's standards, thus he deserves that punishment. He can receive less, but that is by the good graces of others.

I don't believe in the death penalty, period, and don't consider anyone to deserve it. Particularly Blackwall, who's already shown his capacity for rehabilitation.

 

 

Ignoring the years he masqueraded as someone he wasn't to do exactly that.  

Identity theft doesn't stack up very much next to murder.