1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfen09]

gaspard proposed to celene during their "hunting trip" where he intended her to have an accident, but she refused his hand, claiming it as a sign of weakness....  later when they went through the eluvians, and gaspard popped up and followed them, celene asks if its too late to accept his proposal in which he refuses for the same reason.

 

Celene wont help get the dales independent...  she has shown that first and foremost her seat in the empire comes first.  If anyone it would be briala, who did happen to mention she would help the dalish even if they didnt help the city elves...  I dont see that either though, I see something like in origins, you ask the dalish to help and get them to help then they go back to their lives...  plus i believe felassan said that not many dalish actually live in the dales, they kind of migrate through and around it, because they learned their lesson last time when the exalted march came through and they were all in one spot

[Xilizhra]

Maybe, somehow, I can have Celene and Briala be married as rulers of Orlais and the Dales respectively.

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed. If Orlais is going to ignore elven welfare and equality, let the elves handle it themselves. There may be a day later on when such divisions will be unnecessary, but given the lack of things like "Western liberalism," that day is not today.

 

And it never will be, so long as you sacrifice progress in the name of social division. When an actively progressing and integrating racial minority isn't enough to be considered tolerable, there is no realistic way to peaceful integration.

 

Thedas shall be the land of your progressive segregation. Separate and equal, except in all the ways that they won't be equal.

[The Elder King]

It does not, however, count as much on Orlesian charity.

It counts on their willingness to establish peaceful relationships with other human countries though. Because if the rest of Andrastian countries (even not considering Orlais) would have conflicts with the Dales, they could destroy the elven state again. And I think that for an elven state to be created to begin with an agreement with Orlais is needed. Orlais would recover faster than the Dales can possibly increase their military ability, and they'd take the Dales back easily.

[The Elder King]

Maybe, somehow, I can have Celene and Briala be married as rulers of Orlais and the Dales respectively.

I honestly don't think it'll be possible. As I don't think it'll be possible to arrange a marriage between Gaspard and Celene.

[TK514]

At this point, I doubt it- but then, on the same general grounds that I don't expect Celene and Briala to get back together. I don't expect the Orlais conflict to end by re-engaging pre-conflict relationship proposals.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I believe Celene and Gaspard are smart enough to accept marriage to each other as a negotiated settlement, particularly now that Celene doesn't have her Briala dependency holding her back. Of course, some of that hinges on Celene discontinuing being a hypocrite on the issue of parental murder, but she's given up other things in the name of political expedience, so that shouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle. In many ways, that union has the potential to create both a stronger and more egalitarian Orlais, assuming Gaspard and Celene can work together rather than trying to murder each other on their wedding night.

[Hellion Rex]

I have mentioned elsewhere that I believe Celene and Gaspard are smart enough to accept marriage to each other as a negotiated settlement, particularly now that Celene doesn't have her Briala dependency holding her back. Of course, some of that hinges on Celene discontinuing being a hypocrite on the issue of parental murder, but she's given up other things in the name of political expedience, so that shouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle. In many ways, that union has the potential to create both a stronger and more egalitarian Orlais, assuming Gaspard and Celene can work together rather than trying to murder each other on their wedding night.

Ha, they'd end up trying to kill each other the minute the other said "I do."

[Xilizhra]

And it never will be, so long as you sacrifice progress in the name of social division. When an actively progressing and integrating racial minority isn't enough to be considered tolerable, there is no realistic way to peaceful integration.

 

Thedas shall be the land of your progressive segregation. Separate and equal, except in all the ways that they won't be equal.

Glacially progressing. And I'm not going to feed people to the Orlesian servitude machine for uncertain benefits centuries down the road, especially when a minority within Orlais would probably still exist.

 

 

It counts on their willingness to establish peaceful relationships with other human countries though. Because if the rest of Andrastian countries (even not considering Orlais) would have conflicts with the Dales, they could destroy the elven state again. And I think that for an elven state to be created to begin with an agreement with Orlais is needed. Orlais would recover faster than the Dales can possibly increase their military ability, and they'd take the Dales back easily.

So either Celene has to agree to it, or Orlais has to be severely weakened.

 

 

I have mentioned elsewhere that I believe Celene and Gaspard are smart enough to accept marriage to each other as a negotiated settlement, particularly now that Celene doesn't have her Briala dependency holding her back. Of course, some of that hinges on Celene discontinuing being a hypocrite on the issue of parental murder, but she's given up other things in the name of political expedience, so that shouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle. In many ways, that union has the potential to create both a stronger and more egalitarian Orlais, assuming Gaspard and Celene can work together rather than trying to murder each other on their wedding night.

Not egalitarian in any way that would matter, and too dangerous to the rest of the world. Such a concept must be squelched, along with Gaspard and all of his supporters.

[TK514]

It does not, however, count as much on Orlesian charity.

It's actually worse. It depends on overall human charity, ability to accept elves as equal, and willingness to leave any fledgling Elven state alone long enough to establish themselves.

Nothing about what we've seen in Thedas leads me to believe that is possible on more than an individual scale. If Orlais raises up its Elven population through long term sustainable reform, it's an internal Orlesian matter than can spread to other countries over time.

If the Elves attempt military conquest or opportunism, it's suddenly 'those dirty knife ears' attacking humans and 'upsetting the natural order'. A very different 'us vs them' situation. And unless the elves were planning on living underground in old tombs, no fledgling Elven nation can survive an armed conflict. Not with even a weak Orlais, and certainly not against an affronted humanity.

[Xilizhra]

It's actually worse. It depends on overall human charity, ability to accept elves as equal, and willingness to leave any fledgling Elven state alone long enough to establish themselves.

Nothing about what we've seen in Thedas leads me to believe that is possible on more than an individual scale. If Orlais raises up its Elven population through long term sustainable reform, it's an internal Orlesian matter than can spread to other countries over time.

If the Elves attempt military conquest or opportunism, it's suddenly 'those dirty knife ears' attacking humans and 'upsetting the natural order'. A very different 'us vs them' situation. And unless the elves were planning on living underground in old tombs, no fledgling Elven nation can survive an armed conflict. Not with even a weak Orlais, and certainly not against an affronted humanity.

I'm unconvinced that Thedas is actively racist enough to care too much about what happens to Orlais. If it was a religious matter, like the Dalish or qunari coming in, maybe, but as the city elves are Andrastian, Orlais' generally expansionist attitudes lead me to believe that the rest of Thedas will either not care or actively encourage the Dales' secession as a means of weakening Orlais and altering the balance of power. Nevarra and Ferelden especially; even if they don't care for elves much, a weaker Orlais is to their benefit, especially for Ferelden, who'd get the Dales as a buffer state between it and Orlais.

[Hellion Rex]

If the Elves attempt military conquest or opportunism, it's suddenly 'those dirty knife ears' attacking humans and 'upsetting the natural order'. A very different 'us vs them' situation. And unless the elves were planning on living underground in old tombs, no fledgling Elven nation can survive an armed conflict. Not with even a weak Orlais, and certainly not against an affronted humanity.

Indeed. Just because they have unlimited teleportation between mirrors, doesn't mean the elves are truly an army to be reckoned with.

[yakaman91]

In the Fen'Harel metaphor, he escaped. He didn't destroy the other two gods. The Elves goals have to be making the best with what they can do.

Ah, I see, to evade notice to begin with.  For certain, it will take a while for the Elves to muster; generations of subjugation will take a while to cast off, to say nothing about simple combat training, logistics, etc.  But the Eluvians present a remarkable resource for both gathering Elves from all corners of Thedas, and for changing their view of themselves.  They are not servants, they are masters.

 

And, I have my own pet theory regarding Elves, the Fade, and the Veil. 

[TK514]

Not egalitarian in any way that would matter, and too dangerous to the rest of the world. Such a concept must be squelched, along with Gaspard and all of his supporters.

This is what not reading the book gets you. A severely limited view of major players based on assumption.

Gaspard has the potential to be the better choice for both Elves And Mages, because one of his underlying core traits is that he is meritocratic. One of his other core traits is that his word, once given, is unbreakable. He treats fairly with those who treat him the same, even when he doesn't have to. He treats fairly with a City Elf, to the incredulity of a fellow Noble. He kills an honor less ally instead of winning the war though inaction. He does not care that Ser Michel's Noble lineage is a lie, accepting the man as one of worth based on his actions. When he discovers that Briala and Celene were lovers, he shows no disgust at the relationship on any level. He doesn't bat an eye that the Empress is sleeping with an Elven servant woman. He's willing to use it against Celene because he knows others DO care, but he himself does not. When it comes to the Mage/Templar issue, he believes that, at least in Orlais, the Crown should intervene to curtail Chantry power. He willingly, and without any apparent disgust, works with both a human apostate and a Dalish First.

His flaws are, of course, pride and an expansionist focus. He believes he would be a better ruler than Celene, and would like to ensure Orlesian security through expansion. The first is debatable, and the second would have to be put on indefinite hold in order to rebuild after a costly Civil War.

Edit: oh, and of course he would be unacceptable to you, personally, because he's not in an irreparably broken lesbian ex-relationship with an elf, unlike his opposition.

[Xilizhra]

This is what not reading the book gets you. A severely limited view of major players based on assumption.

Gaspard has the potential to be the better choice for both Elves And Mages, because one of his underlying core traits is that he is meritocratic. One of his other core traits is that his word, once given, is unbreakable. He treats fairly with those who treat him the same, even when he doesn't have to. He treats fairly with a City Elf, to the incredulity of a fellow Noble. He kills an honor less ally instead of winning the war though inaction. He does not care that Ser Michel's Noble lineage is a lie, accepting the man as one of worth based on his actions. When he discovers that Briala and Celene were lovers, he shows no disgust at the relationship on any level. He doesn't bat an eye that the Empress is sleeping with an Elven servant woman. He's willing to use it against Celene because he knows others DO care, but he himself does not. When it comes to the Mage/Templar issue, he believes that, at least in Orlais, the Crown should intervene to curtail Chantry power. He willingly, and without any apparent disgust, works with both a human apostate and a Dalish First.

His flaws are, of course, pride and an expansionist focus. He believes he would be a better ruler than Celene, and would like to ensure Orlesian security through expansion. The first is debatable, and the second would have to put on indefinite hold in order to rebuild after a costly Civil War.

He's an unabashed imperialist and dedicated to Orlesian supremacy. He may be willing to be charitable to lessers on his own terms, but would never allow them to be equal, or give any hope of autonomy to the Dales. In any case, reuniting Celene and Briala is the only way for the book to not suck, or at least to have one of its worst aspects removed.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard has no ill directed from me at him for his belief at wishing to support his Empire with new territory and servants. Expansionism  in and of it self is hardly faultable, After all. He wants living thralls to serve his Empire, he doesn't wish death upon any one i figure, Tribute doesn't flow from dead races if you forgive the Leviathan quote.

 

Tribute supports every civilization, every society.

 

In our own reality this is true.

[Hellion Rex]

A tad snide at the end, Tarkin?

 

But yes, I completely agree with your depiction of Gaspard. I found it interesting that he does respect and recognize Briala's abilities as a spymaster, as well as his desire to keep Michel's secret.

[Iron Star]

Just bought asunder and tme. I really want to read tme first, but will I get a lesser experience from it if I haven't read asunder already? If someone could reply by pm:Ing me I'd appreciate it, since I want to avoid spoliers as much as possible. >.<

[Master Warder Z_]

He's an unabashed imperialist and dedicated to Orlesian supremacy. He may be willing to be charitable to lessers on his own terms, but would never allow them to be equal, or give any hope of autonomy to the Dales. In any case, reuniting Celene and Briala is the only way for the book to not suck, or at least to have one of its worst aspects removed.

 

You act like those traits are supposed to be negative, honestly what is with this generation and using titles like "imperialist" as an insult, Makes me wonder why folks automatically equates the delusion of "republics" with "freedom" rather then an overt autocracy through absolute monarchism. And also I'd argue him being willing to overlook station, advantage and his own abashed opinion in favor of following a code speaks very well of the man.

 

This is how it sounds to me.

 

"Waaaah! The Lesbians got into a spat and i disagree with how the Writer Presented things!"

 

._. Xill this is one of those moments were folk just need to accept the lore written until its contradicted later in the game.

[Hellion Rex]

Just bought asunder and tme. I really want to read tme first, but will I get a lesser experience from it if I haven't read asunder already? If someone could reply by pm:Ing me I'd appreciate it, since I want to avoid spoliers as much as possible. >.<

I'll PM you if you want. But I'd read Asunder first, then TME.

[Xilizhra]

You act like those traits are supposed to be negative, honestly what is with this generation and using titles like "imperialist" as an insult, Makes me wonder why folks automatically equates the delusion of "republics" with "freedom" rather then an overt autocracy through absolute monarchism. And also I'd argue him being willing to overlook station, advantage and his own abashed opinion in favor of following a code speaks very well of the man.

 

This is how it sounds to me.

 

"Waaaah! The Lesbians got into a spat and i disagree with how the Writer Presented things!"

 

._. Xill this is one of those moments were folk just need to accept the lore written until its contradicted later in the game.

I accept it as having happened. I do not accept it as something good.

[Master Warder Z_]

I accept it as having happened. I do not accept it as something good.

 

Fair enough.

 

But it is something good

[Xilizhra]

A tad snide at the end, Tarkin?

 

But yes, I completely agree with your depiction of Gaspard. I found it interesting that he does respect and recognize Briala's abilities as a spymaster, as well as his desire to keep Michel's secret.

Eh, he's badly wrong in his snideness. I sided with Caridin over Branka, after all. Gaspard's imperialism is the main problem.

[AresKeith]

Xil want did the OP tell you about bringing that up

[Xilizhra]

Xil want did the OP tell you about bringing that up

Something that others such as TK could do well to remember as well, given that I slipped it in only as a tiny aside.

[Hellion Rex]

I honestly went into this book thinking I'd hate Gaspard. But he is an extremely well written character and I was pleasantly surprised.