1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Again, haven't read, but would Orlesian Petrovsky be a fair comparison?

 

I'm only really aware of Petrovsky from the Omega dlc.  But based on how you described him in the comics, it would be a fair comparison

[Master Warder Z_]

And you think he would just let the Dales go?

 

If it magically benefited Orlais in some way?

 

Yup.

[Darth Krytie]

And you think he would just let the Dales go?

 

Not on his life. Honor aside, I bet he'd rule Orlais with a tighter fist than Celene. Any progress she made would diminish.

[AresKeith]

For those of us too cheap to buy TME, what makes Gaspard such a good potential emperor over Celene (who sounds great in the free sample)?

You could always read the synopsis on the wiki if you don't have the book

[Iakus]

There is nothing to indicate he would be a default antagonist for DAI and he doesn't overly serve in that role in so far as TME, he just has an opposing agenda from Celene.

 

And How so? Because he is an competent leader? And an even better War Leader if all the hype is to be believed? Oh no! We may put a fella on the throne that could invade some random country next door! ...At some point! For some reason! This is an issue?

I call him the antagonist only as far as teh book goes.  I suspect the Inquisitor will be able to support him in the game.

 

And I have no doubt he's a competant leader.  Heck Loghain was a competant leader too.  But he was still bad for Ferelden.  Gaspard seems uninterested in improving internal matters for Orlais and its citizens, and more interested in retaking Ferelden and invading Nevarra.  And seems ready to start slaughtering templars and mages both rather than trying to resolve things peacefully.

 

Basically, his problem is he thinks every problem can be solved with "a yard of steel through the chest"

[Master Warder Z_]

Not on his life. Honor aside, I bet he'd rule Orlais with a tighter fist than Celene. Any progress she made would diminish.

 

Really? Through out TME he was harping on strengthening Orlais as a whole, He wanted a United, Empire with common direction and cause.

 

He wanted a strong, stable and most of all, Honorable Empire.

 

._. And Celene really hasn't done given Orlais any of that...A few token efforts here and there to placate some folks, Like allowing Elves into a university, allowing foreign viewpoints into Orlais, Overall though? She hasn't do much to "help Orlais's progress".

[Master Warder Z_]

I call him the antagonist only as far as teh book goes.  I suspect the Inquisitor will be able to support him in the game.

 

And I have no doubt he's a competant leader.  Heck Loghain was a competant leader too.  But he was still bad for Ferelden.  Gaspard seems uninterested in improving internal matters for Orlais and its citizens, and more interested in retaking Ferelden and invading Nevarra.  And seems ready to start slaughtering templars and mages both rather than trying to resolve things peacefully.

 

Basically, his problem is he thinks every problem can be solved with "a yard of steel through the chest"

 

He really wasn't.

 

Because the Situation was degrading to the point were one of Orlais's greatest weapons could inversely be turned against the Empire, if you have any delusions that any standing government in our own reality would take that from its Military, let me assure you. The first solution would be an overt action of finality. Gaspard didn't want to have the Mages and Templars butchering each other in his country, that's fair enough in my eye, pity it ended up happening anyway given Celene's brilliant interference but what can you do?

 

Not really.

[Darth Krytie]

Really? Through out TME he was harping on strengthening Orlais as a whole, He wanted a United, Empire with common direction and cause.

 

He wanted a strong, stable and most of all, Honorable Empire.

 

._. And Celene really hasn't done given Orlais any of that...A few token efforts here and there to placate some folks, Like allowing Elves into a university, allowing foreign viewpoints into Orlais, Overall though? She hasn't do much to "help Orlais's progress".

 

I'm not saying Celene was a saint, but she did have an uphill battle changing anything, especially trying to force people to give up power when they didn't want to in favour of anyone who was disadvantaged.

 

And what was this common direction and cause that he wanted so badly? And those who disagree with it? I mean, he's not a reformer. He never pretended to be a reformer.

 

His honor also had him offer Celene a marriage and then attempt to kill her when she refused him. How is that honorable?

[Sir JK]

I don't see it happening. Celene's sins are great and numerous. She murdered Briala's parents to get the throne and then lied about it for years. While she obviously does care about improving the lot of elves, seeing them as Orlesians first and elves second, she still sees them as elves and demonstrates a willingness and intent to sacrifice them to the altar of politics and Orlesian security. She repeatedly tells Briala that she will do everything she can for the Elves, then plans to keep them under her thumb for use as Eluvian assassins. Then, possibly as hurtful as anything on a personal level, Celene instantly and unthinkingly risks her life to save Michel, and later in the same fight lets Briala (almost) die when she could have intervened.

Is there some love there? Sure. Also a lot of unhealthy dependence. Celene obviously cares about Briala as an individual, but admits her commitment to Elven equality is flexible, and entirely dependent on a cost/benefit analysis.

The entire reason Briala steals the Eluvian network from Celene and directly prevents the Empress from stopping the Civil War before it goes any further by dumping her as far from Val Royeaux as possible (and in Gaspard held territory,mot boot) is because she knows without ambiguity or doubt that Celene can not be trusted.

I don't see how distrust, betrayal and completely incompatible goals make for a good foundation to repair a failed relationship.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. Yes, Celene has not treated Briala very well. She very well deserved the response she got from Briala, no doubt about it. Briala is angry and has every right to be. Celene took Briala for granted, got so absolutely carried away and failed to see her lover.

 

But I do think Celene loves Briala very much. Not even this has diminished that. And I got the impression  that it is still mutual. Despite everything. She also sees reforming Orlais as her life's work, something she must do. And she sees the throne as the means to do this. Unfortuantely the needs of the throne blinded her. But i do think she'll fight tooth and nail to try to win Briala back. After winning back the throne.

 

But more importantly... Celene may have wanted to go to Val Royeux, but Briala did not take her where Celene wanted to go. But to where she needed to be. Being stranded in the Winterpalace was not detrimental to Celene. Within a few hours she had taken back Halamshiral without a single drop of blood being shed, thus securing access to Jader and leaving her back protected.

 

Briala did not send her there out of spite. She sent her there because it was what actually was best for Celene.

 

Which is why the romantic in me thinks there's hope for them... but it's Celene's job to prove she's worthy of that chance. And proving that is no trivial matter.

 

But... as I said... I'm not sure Briala will even be in the game at all. She was brilliant, but she feels the most like a "book"-character (much like Rhys, Evangeline and Adrian does). She's so intertwined with Celene, so to speak, that the two would need to have lots of content together. And unless both of them are that important, I don't see that happening. Briala will show up again, I am sure. I am sure she'll at the very least be mentioned. But I don't strictly speaking see her as neccessary (not like Celene, Gaspard or Fiona). 

[TK514]

For those of us too cheap to buy TME, what makes Gaspard such a good potential emperor over Celene (who sounds great in the free sample)?

Ultimately, I don't think he would make for a successful long term Emperor on his own. He plays The Game well enough in the short term, but I don't think he plays it well enough to retain the Crown. I think being Emperor in Orlais would ultimately force him to choose between his principles and winning the Game day after day, year after year, and I don't think he possesses that kind of personal flexibility. He's not Lawful Stupid, but there are some rules he won't break and his enemies would absolutely exploit that.

Which is why an alliance with Celene would be so advantageous. If she could convince him to back thing like social reform, he would make sure she followed through with it. She could deal with the parts of the game he couldn't, and he could be her compass when expediency would lead her to sacrifice others.

And given the level of destruction to Orlesian forces hinted at I the various Exalted plains snippets, I think Orlais will be forgoing militaristic expansion for the next few years while they rebuild.

[Iakus]

He really wasn't.

 

Because the Situation was degrading to the point were one of Orlais's greatest weapons could inversely be turned against the Empire, if you have any delusions that any standing government in our own reality would take that from its Military, let me assure you. The first solution would be an overt action of finality. Gaspard didn't want to have the Mages and Templars butchering each other in his country, that's fair enough in my eye, pity it ended up happening anyway given Celene's brilliant interference but what can you do?

 

Not really.

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to as "Orlais' greatest weapons"  Are you referring to the mages?  Because orlais never had any authority over teh Circle or the Templars.  Those were under Chantry authority.  And Gaspard made it quite clear he thought Celene was coddling them to much.

[In Exile]

I wonder if we'll be able to influence whether the City Elves and the Dalish Elves unite with each other. Difficult given the disdain the Dalish have for the City Elves.

 

 

I'm starting to think that's going to be one of the plot threads around the elves in DA:I, with the Dalish PC having the weight necessary to convince the Dalish to not be... well. Dalish about it. 

[Iakus]

Ultimately, I don't think he would make for a successful long term Emperor on his own. He plays The Game well enough in the short term, but I don't think he plays it well enough to retain the Crown. I think being Emperor in Orlais would ultimately force him to choose between his principles and winning the Game day after day, year after year, and I don't think he possesses that kind of personal flexibility. He's not Lawful Stupid, but there are some rules he won't break and his enemies would absolutely exploit that.

Which is why an alliance with Celene would be so advantageous. If she could convince him to back thing like social reform, he would make sure she followed through with it. She could deal with the parts of the game he couldn't, and he could be her compass when expediency would lead her to sacrifice others.

And given the level of destruction to Orlesian forces hinted at I the various Exalted plains snippets, I think Orlais will be forgoing militaristic expansion for the next few years while they rebuild.

 

Yeah, Gaspard is the guy you want leading your forces in a military venture.  He'd make a great warlord.  But I think he'd ultimately lose the peace.

[Darth Krytie]

I'm starting to think that's going to be one of the plot threads around the elves in DA:I, with the Dalish PC having the weight necessary to convince the Dalish to not be... well. Dalish about it. 

I would love that, actually. I think it's a worthy thread to look into. Even if not in this game.

[Milan92]

Ultimately, I don't think he would make for a successful long term Emperor on his own. He plays The Game well enough in the short term, but I don't think he plays it well enough to retain the Crown. I think being Emperor in Orlais would ultimately force him to choose between his principles and winning the Game day after day, year after year, and I don't think he possesses that kind of personal flexibility. He's not Lawful Stupid, but there are some rules he won't break and his enemies would absolutely exploit that.

Which is why an alliance with Celene would be so advantageous. If she could convince him to back thing like social reform, he would make sure she followed through with it. She could deal with the parts of the game he couldn't, and he could be her compass when expediency would lead her to sacrifice others.

And given the level of destruction to Orlesian forces hinted at I the various Exalted plains snippets, I think Orlais will be forgoing militaristic expansion for the next few years while they rebuild.

 

Sounds like a marriage between Celene and Gaspard would be a really good idea then. I hope we will have that option in DA: I to solve their differences and then marry each other.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm not saying Celene was a saint, but she did have an uphill battle changing anything, especially trying to force people to give up power when they didn't want to in favour of anyone who was disadvantaged.

 

And what was this common direction and cause that he wanted so badly? And those who disagree with it? I mean, he's not a reformer. He never pretended to be a reformer.

 

His honor also had him offer Celene a marriage and then attempt to kill her when she refused him. How is that honorable?

 

And this magically changes how what you said wasn't true? It isn't her fault she didn't change anything, but she changed things!

 

Not a reformer in so far as him seeking major political or societal change no, But he does want Empire to return to what it was, a Bastion of Humanity, civilization in a continent of pretenders, Dog Lords and Bumbling hicks.

 

How? He offered her a way to end hostilities before they even began but her selfishness prevented her from acting upon common sense, he then preceded to remove the greatest threat to Orelisian stability. There was honor in his action.

[TK514]

And you think he would just let the Dales go?

I don't think either he or Celene could be convinced to make that promise. I don't think anyone in the book, including the Dalish, even view it as a realistic possibility. Outside a few malcontents, who are all dead now, the overwhelming opinion presented is that the Dales are part of Orlais and everyone who lives there is Orlesian. Which makes perfect sense, since the Dales have been part of Orlais for almost twice as long as they were a sovereign nation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Which is why an alliance with Celene would be so advantageous. If she could convince him to back thing like social reform, he would make sure she followed through with it. She could deal with the parts of the game he couldn't, and he could be her compass when expediency would lead her to sacrifice others.

 

While ultimately disagree with the notion of him being incapable of retaining his crown while holding to personal principles i do agree that an Alliance with the sitting Empress would solve the majority of the current problems of Orlais, but that said. She already turned that down once, Would she do it again? If she could overcome her base pride and lust perhaps, We shall see.

[In Exile]

I'm unconvinced that Thedas is actively racist enough to care too much about what happens to Orlais. If it was a religious matter, like the Dalish or qunari coming in, maybe, but as the city elves are Andrastian, Orlais' generally expansionist attitudes lead me to believe that the rest of Thedas will either not care or actively encourage the Dales' secession as a means of weakening Orlais and altering the balance of power. Nevarra and Ferelden especially; even if they don't care for elves much, a weaker Orlais is to their benefit, especially for Ferelden, who'd get the Dales as a buffer state between it and Orlais.

 

It's not about being racist. It's about opportunity. It's the same reason other states in Thedas might salivate over conquering and carving up a weakened Orlais between them. 

 

The real geopolitical advantage for the Dales - if they're ever independent - is that no one is really in much of a state to invade them soon. The problem is that this is the same situation for Orlais. And if no one beats down Orlais, then any especially charismatic leader can just convince the Orlesians that what's necessary to recover their glory days is a military invasion of a newly independent Dales. 

 

In terms of Ferelden, the Dales aren't just a buffer state. They're an independent, militaristic power who (among other things) is made up of an entirely different racial group who might very well incite civil unrest just in virtue of existing (because Fereldan CEs can't be stupid; if they see their Orlesian neighbours building a country, they'll either want to leave or want one for themselves). 

 

Sharing a border with the Dales isn't all sunshine and roses. Not to mention that - in the long-run- Ferelden might just get an imperialist ruler itself. And suddenly the Dales would look mighty fine annexed as part of a Greater Kingdom of Ferelden. 

 

But in any case it seems like an actual free Dales has a bit of a respite from any war because of the mess that Thedas is in, and since Thedas is in a mess, that gives them the chance to build political and economic ties with the rest of the continent to ensure that they won't be invaded. Unless they decide to create a racially segregated isolationist Utopia. In which case, a militaristic leader will totally take advantage of that.

 

Splitting up Orlais creates a power vacuum, and someone is going to step in to fill it unless the CEs can come up with a new geopolitical balance that includes them too. 

[Iakus]

Sounds like a marriage between Celene and Gaspard would be a really good idea then. I hope we will have that option in DA: I to solve their differences and then marry each other.

 

Unlikely.  Not only have they already turned each other down, but they have actively tried to kill each other.  As in personally, not just with troops. 

[Xilizhra]

I don't think either he or Celene could be convinced to make that promise. I don't think anyone in the book, including the Dalish, even view it as a realistic possibility. Outside a few malcontents, who are all dead now, the overwhelming opinion presented is that the Dales are part of Orlais and everyone who lives there is Orlesian. Which makes perfect sense, since the Dales have been part of Orlais for almost twice as long as they were a sovereign nation.

We could start with semi-autonomy if need be. I just wonder what the best option for helping the elves will be presented as. I'm just about certain that Briala won't be an automatic antagonist.

[Darth Krytie]

And this magically changes how what you said wasn't true? It isn't her fault she didn't change anything, but she changed things!

 

Not a reformer in so far as him seeking major political or societal change no, But he does want Empire to return to what it was, a Bastion of Humanity, civilization in a continent of pretenders, Dog Lords and Bumbling hicks.

 

How? He offered her a way to end hostilities before they even began but her selfishness prevented her from acting upon common sense, he then preceded to remove the greatest threat to Orelisian stability. There was honor in his action.

 

To clarify: she was limited in how much she could change at present times given the resistance and she was moving towards changing more. She has changed things, and I don't necessarily deem all of them to be token. But it wasn't drastic because of the situation she had to balance.

 

 

The Empire going back to what it was IS a problem. It's the biggest problem. I'm not a fan of his whole manifest destiny issues. Humanity against a civilization of pretenders and dog lords and hicks? Wow, that sounds like every despot who ever ran roughshod over the world and demanded they cede their sovereignty under some sort of 'divine right'. I'm not an imperialist. I don't think he's the best option.

 

He offered to end hostilities before they began? He caused the hostilities in the first place. What he offered Celene was blackmail.

[Milan92]

Unlikely.  Not only have they already turned each other down, but they have actively tried to kill each other.  As in personally, not just with troops. 

 

No one can witstand the Inquisitor's persuasive ways of talking! They shall marry! 

[In Exile]

He's an unabashed imperialist and dedicated to Orlesian supremacy. He may be willing to be charitable to lessers on his own terms, but would never allow them to be equal, or give any hope of autonomy to the Dales. In any case, reuniting Celene and Briala is the only way for the book to not suck, or at least to have one of its worst aspects removed.

 

But that pretty much describes Briala, too. And, really, any freedom fighter. It's an attitude you have to have if you're going to wage a war to put a particular social in-group in a socially dominant position over a territory. 

 

Not that I'm a fan of Gaspard, per se, and it's not like I've read the book. But Gaspard having this attitude isn't any different than, say, pretty much anyone ever. 

[Xilizhra]

But that pretty much describes Briala, too. And, really, any freedom fighter. It's an attitude you have to have if you're going to wage a war to put a particular social in-group in a socially dominant position over a territory. 

 

Not that I'm a fan of Gaspard, per se, and it's not like I've read the book. But Gaspard having this attitude isn't any different than, say, pretty much anyone ever. 

Right, but Gaspard isn't fighting for freedom, but continued oppression. Goals do matter.