Right, but Gaspard isn't fighting for freedom, but continued oppression. Goals do matter.
Well, he's fighting for the freedom of the rich and entitled. 
I agree with you that goals absolutely do matter. I'm just saying that it's his goals that you should object to, and not that part of his character.
But again, haven't read the book, will do it sometime in May, so I'll have a better option by then.
To clarify: she was limited in how much she could change at present times given the resistance and she was moving towards changing more. She has changed things, and I don't necessarily deem all of them to be token. But it wasn't drastic because of the situation she had to balance.
The Empire going back to what it was IS a problem. It's the biggest problem. I'm not a fan of his whole manifest destiny issues. Humanity against a civilization of pretenders and dog lords and hicks? Wow, that sounds like every despot who ever ran roughshod over the world and demanded they cede their sovereignty under some sort of 'divine right'. I'm not an imperialist. I don't think he's the best option.
He offered to end hostilities before they began? He caused the hostilities in the first place. What he offered Celene was blackmail.
So you offer the same argument again, A few token changes automatically equate massive societal shift, despite her doing that for her own benefit, she angles, she plays the game. All Celene did was attempted to win over the elves so she wouldn't have to kill a few more during the rebellion, ended up being a moot point, it wasn't like she did it as some act of Charity.
So personal interpretation makes my own belief invalid? Orlais is or rather was the strongest Human power in Thedas, it presents the strongest force against the many issues plaguing it as well, Darkspawn, Qunari and what have you. This internal weakening that Celene attempted to impose, this social diffusion from tradition ultimately even if success would not do over much but overtly weaken Orlesian National identity. And while Orlais remains the center of humanity, it can ill afford that. So naturally i back the Leader who wishes the return to normalcy, I dislike Leaders who attempt to impose gross change when it inversely shifts social balance when the society can ill afford it for selfish reasoning.Gaspard doesn't do that.
He offered her a way out of a situation she caused by her own lack of dedication. She choose to be selfish and let the Empire languish.
I don't think either he or Celene could be convinced to make that promise. I don't think anyone in the book, including the Dalish, even view it as a realistic possibility. Outside a few malcontents, who are all dead now, the overwhelming opinion presented is that the Dales are part of Orlais and everyone who lives there is Orlesian. Which makes perfect sense, since the Dales have been part of Orlais for almost twice as long as they were a sovereign nation.
I don't think any Orlesian ruler would ever agree to surrender a substantial portion of their territory. It's just not possible. Even if the person wanted it, their own political supporters would revolt. Ignoring how it'd be seen as a sign of weakness, etc.
An independent Dales is pretty much a non-starter - and has to be - for either Celene or Gaspard. A sovereign Dales - as a province within Orlais - might be something that's a lot more achievable.
Well, he's fighting for the freedom of the rich and entitled.
He's fighting for Orlais, His countrymen and Tradition 
So you offer the same argument again, A few token changes automatically equate massive societal shift, despite her doing that for her own benefit, she angles, she plays the game. All Celene did was attempted to win over the elves so she would have to kill a few more during the rebellion, ended up being a moot point, it wasn't like she did it as some act of Charity.
So personal interpretation makes my own belief invalid? Orlais is or rather was the strongest Human power in Thedas, it presents the strongest force against the many issues plaguing it as well, Darkspawn, Qunari and what have you. This internal weakening that Celene attempted to impose, this social diffusion from tradition ultimately even if success would not do over much but overtly weaken Orlesian National identity. And while Orlais remains the center of humanity, it can ill afford that. So naturally i back the Leader who wishes the return to normalcy, I dislike Leaders who attempt to impose gross change when it inversely shifts social balance when the society can ill afford it for selfish reasoning.Gaspard doesn't do that.
He offered her a way out of a situation she caused by her own lack of dedication. She choose to be selfish and let the Empire languish.
You're the most qunariesque poster I've ever seen; it's rather interesting.
I don't think any Orlesian ruler would ever agree to surrender a substantial portion of their territory. It's just not possible. Even if the person wanted it, their own political supporters would revolt. Ignoring how it'd be seen as a sign of weakness, etc.
An independent Dales is pretty much a non-starter - and has to be - for either Celene or Gaspard. A sovereign Dales - as a province within Orlais - might be something that's a lot more achievable.
If it can be imposed by decree of the Inquisition, however, it might go over more easily. Relatively. The ruler of Orlais can pretend it wasn't their idea, perhaps.
You're the most qunariesque poster I've ever seen; it's rather interesting.
Truly? Is my viewpoint so alien you compare it to theirs?
Truly? Is my viewpoint so alien you compare it to theirs?
One people, one nation, one culture? Not so alien.
Truly? Is my viewpoint so alien you compare it to theirs?
To be honest, I thought the same thing. lol. Before I read her comment.
One people, one nation, one culture? Not so alien.
Heil?
If it can be imposed by decree of the Inquisition, however, it might go over more easily. Relatively. The ruler of Orlais can pretend it wasn't their idea, perhaps.
Xil... in order to do this your inqusition would pretty much have to be a nation in it's own right. You wouldn't be the freind of the Dales. You'd be it's ruler. I suppose you could get full Qunari or Tevinter backing as well. Maybe a Nevarran/Marcher/Dwarven/Fereldan coalition as well.
If the Dales is to survive as independent it also -has- to be something the ruler of Orlais pretends it's their idea. The other is a walking insult that Orlesian politics would have to answer (and it'll be when they percieve the Dales and/or it's protector is weak)
Heil?
Nah, this is Orlais. It'd be "Salut!"
To be honest, I thought the same thing. lol. Before I read her comment.
Global Nationalism dear friends, Global Nationalism. The unification of a singular world state would be an invaluable boon to the aims i personally possess for the species and the beliefs i personally try to instill.
We are all Humans, we are all of this planet.
Therefore we are all mere utility to the continuation of both species and home world.
The Qunari do have a few good points, i actually agree with their ideologies more so when it isn't being imposed in Dragon Age, In that universe? Its an intrusive cancer, In our own reality? Well...Wouldn't hurt if some of that mindset rubbed off.
Nah, this is Orlais. It'd be "Salut!"
French huh?
Well i assume that anyway, its also a word of similar meaning in Romanian.
Xil... in order to do this your inqusition would pretty much have to be a nation in it's own right. You wouldn't be the freind of the Dales. You'd be it's ruler. I suppose you could get full Qunari or Tevinter backing as well. Maybe a Nevarran/Marcher/Dwarven/Fereldan coalition as well.
If the Dales is to survive as independent it also -has- to be something the ruler of Orlais pretends it's their idea. The other is a walking insult that Orlesian politics would have to answer (and it'll be when they percieve the Dales and/or it's protector is weak)
I thought that was more or less the point of gathering together various powers within the Inquisition, as a form of NGO superpower.
Perhaps, if I have the Chantry by the ovaries, I can get their backing as well.
But I do think Celene loves Briala very much. Not even this has diminished that. And I got the impression that it is still mutual. Despite everything. She also sees reforming Orlais as her life's work, something she must do. And she sees the throne as the means to do this. Unfortuantely the needs of the throne blinded her. But i do think she'll fight tooth and nail to try to win Briala back. After winning back the throne.
But more importantly... Celene may have wanted to go to Val Royeux, but Briala did not take her where Celene wanted to go. But to where she needed to be. Being stranded in the Winterpalace was not detrimental to Celene. Within a few hours she had taken back Halamshiral without a single drop of blood being shed, thus securing access to Jader and leaving her back protected.
Briala did not send her there out of spite. She sent her there because it was what actually was best for Celene.
The romantic in me would love this to be true, but the book explicitly tells us, from Briala's inner monologue, that she sends Celene to Halimshiral instead of Val Royeax specifically to prevent her from winning the war. Briala is working in direct opposition to both Celene and Gaspard, and I don't think you can add the deaths of thousands and the very real threat of losing and being executed to the list of things that make for successful reconciliation.
Would you appreciate such a chance if it existed, then? Because I think it's still possible for things to be fixed. Nothing is truly beyond redemption.
He's fighting for Orlais, His countrymen and Tradition
He's a noble. He's fighting for his political in-group. The Orlesians - the vast majority of peasants, serfs, merchants, etc. - are going to die and suffer painfully because of him and Celene.
If it can be imposed by decree of the Inquisition, however, it might go over more easily. Relatively. The ruler of Orlais can pretend it wasn't their idea, perhaps.
That's going to start a world war between the Inquisition and every other nation on Thedas. The Wardens are "independent" in most of Thedas because they straight up don't engage in clear and pressing violations of the territorial sovereignty of nations.
If the Inqusition decides it's an awesome time to break up Orlais, that sends a message to every nation on Earth that the Inquisition is a clear and pressing threat to their power. The fact that it gives the Inquisition a strangehold on the region is especially problematic, because "we did it to help the elves!" just sounds like a post-hoc justification for a power grab.
And if the Inquisitor herself is elven, then you run straight into an accusation that the Inquisition is just a military arm of the newly formed Dales.
I do wonder if we're gonna end up Like Commander Shepard in ME3...negotiating treaties between warring factions to get them to focus on the real threat.
That's going to start a world war between the Inquisition and every other nation on Thedas. The Wardens are "independent" in most of Thedas because they straight up don't engage in clear and pressing violations of the territorial sovereignty of nations.
If the Inqusition decides it's an awesome time to break up Orlais, that sends a message to every nation on Earth that the Inquisition is a clear and pressing threat to their power. The fact that it gives the Inquisition a strangehold on the region is especially problematic, because "we did it to help the elves!" just sounds like a post-hoc justification for a power grab.
And if the Inquisitor herself is elven, then you run straight into an accusation that the Inquisition is just a military arm of the newly formed Dales.
How well this would work does, admittedly, depend heavily upon how badly the Veil tears are affecting Orlais. However, the reasoning of "we needed the Dales' magic artifacts" doesn't seem so unreasonable, and if other nations wish to bar the Inquisition from entering them... well, good luck with the demons.
Well, he's fighting for the freedom of the rich and entitled.
and if other nations wish to bar the Inquisition from entering them... well, good luck with the demons.
Actually, from what we've heard that's exactly what the other nations and factions are going to do..until we show up with a huge army and make them reconsider. I don't think we'll be thought of as "the good guys" here, more like we're "the parent forcing the child to take their medicine while the kid is kicking and screaming". Forcing them to do what's best (as far as we're concerned) regardless if they like it or not.
Glacially progressing. And I'm not going to feed people to the Orlesian servitude machine for uncertain benefits centuries down the road, especially when a minority within Orlais would probably still exist.
If we want historic analogues, Celenes reforms are radically fast and also self-catalyzing: the more accepted elves become from the reforms (which includes getting the nobility accustomed to elves in an setting as equals), the less controversial they become and faster they can be expanded. Glacial progress is relative only to the desires of the watcher, not the context of the reforms themselves.
Of course, if we just want to use glacial as a metaphor without a relative time scale- I'd tell you it's a much better bet to bet on the glacier than the wildfire of revolution. Glaciers reshape continents, changing the landscape for millenia and gradually crushing mountains into egaltarian plains. Glacial changes are rarely undone except by truly tectonic shifts. Wildfires, though- a wildfire burns down the forest to spite the trees, leaves the mountains of prejudice blackened but otherwise untouched, and in another ten years you'll still have a forest.
If you want enduring change, bet on the glacier. Especially when you can give it a push, like Celene was.
The romantic in me would love this to be true, but the book explicitly tells us, from Briala's inner monologue, that she sends Celene to Halimshiral instead of Val Royeax specifically to prevent her from winning the war. Briala is working in direct opposition to both Celene and Gaspard, and I don't think you can add the deaths of thousands and the very real threat of losing and being executed to the list of things that make for successful reconciliation.
Yes, but also remember that Celene was to the rest of Orlais more or less losing when she vanished into the Eluvians. Outmanouvered in the Game and defeated in the field. Yes, she would probably have won over Gaspard quickly (especially since he was dropped near Val Chevin, which is hers). But her position would have been weaker. She would not nearly have the poltical clout to pull much off and would be forced to ally herself on someone else's terms.
Halamshiral gave her a victory and a chance to shine. And most importantly... become a better person.
It's a chance to win and to atone. But an extremely difficult path.
But I definantely do not see Briala directly working against either Gaspard or Celene anymore than she already has. She defeating them does not make her come any closer to her goal because what she needs to fight is systemic. Neither Gaspard nor Celene is defending it as such, they're just not doing enough/anything about it. She needed to prolong the civil war, she has. Now she has plenty of time for her plans. There's no more need for direct sabotage as such.
I thought that was more or less the point of gathering together various powers within the Inquisition, as a form of NGO superpower.
Perhaps, if I have the Chantry by the ovaries, I can get their backing as well
Getting the Chantry's backing will probably be extremely useful for whatever cause you wish to fight for that isn't upsetting geopolitical balance or insulting nations. If you do that, you need far more.
Actually, from what we've heard that's exactly what the other nations and factions are going to do..until we show up with a huge army and make them reconsider. I don't think we'll be thought of as "the good guys" here, more like we're "the parent forcing the child to take their medicine while the kid is kicking and screaming". Forcing them to do what's best (as far as we're concerned) regardless if they like it or not.
Weren't we told that part of the theme for DAI will be "saving the world from itself"?
If we want historic analogues, Celenes reforms are radically fast and also self-catalyzing: the more accepted elves become from the reforms, the faster they can be expanded. Glacial progress is relative only to the desires of the watcher, not the context of the reforms themselves.
Of course, if we just want to use glacial as a metaphor- I'd tell you it's a much better bet to bet on the glacier than the wildfire of revolution. Glaciers reshape continents, changing the landscape for millenia and gradually crushing mountains into egaltarian plains. Glacial changes are rarely undone except by truly tectonic shifts. Wildfires, though- a wildfire burns down the forest to spite the trees, leaves the mountains of prejudice blackened but otherwise untouched, and in another ten years you'll still have a forest.
If you want enduring change, bet on the glacier. Especially when you can give it a push, like Celene was.
Celene's reforms have been wholly contingent on never presenting a serious challenge to her rulership, they may well not last beyond her own lifespan, and Orlesian nobility seems to totally lack genuine altruists due to the nature of the Game, so I wouldn't say that any of this possesses the stability of a glacier, even if it might have the speed.
Ultimately, it's dependent on whatever the best option happens to be in-game, and that we don't yet know. I will do whatever happens to work best for the future of the elves, however.
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