1992 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I think it's more interesting to debate Orlais' fate because everyone agrees that the City Elves deserve more than they have, but is it worth destroying a nation to get rid of its flaws?

I don't see why Orlais would be destroyed if the elves took advantage of the multiple conflicts to emancipate the Dales, or put themselves in a situation where either contender for the throne would need to make concessions after centuries of institutionalized racism, mistreatment, rapes, individual murders, and purges.

As for the Dalish, I take issue with the people who are apparently unable to accept that they have big flaws as well, as if Zathrian never existed. The fact that they lost a war and are victim of an ally's betrayal way back in history shouldn't make people blind to their flaws. Apparently, the elvhenan empire was, if at all, only marginally  better than the Orlesian one, and some of the Dalish are perfect reflections of that fact. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I don't recall the Dalish ever saying they were perfect, and Merrill comments that no one is aware of who summoned Audacity, so they don't think the Arlathan elves were perfect, either. I don't see anyone being 'blind' when expressing an interest in the elves having an autonomous state where they won't be victim to human bigotry.

[TK514]

Would you appreciate such a chance if it existed, then? Because I think it's still possible for things to be fixed. Nothing is truly beyond redemption.

I'm not against it in principle. There would simply have to be a very convincing and compelling story around why and how.

If it were just Celene being unable to deliver on her promises completely due to the realities of the Throne, I could see that being forgivable. Even rulers are not omnipotent, and if she did everything she could and came up short, well, an honest and complete effort leading to failure is not unforgivable.

My issue is that Celene stopped well short of that. She determined well before they ever got to the Eluvians that she wasn't going to even really try to give Briala what she wanted for the elves. Celene discarded it as feasible and settled on 'some improvements, but not equality, and they can be my personal Eluvian Attack force'. Worse, Gaspard called her on it, and Celene admitted it.

Add to that finding out that Celene personally murdered Briala's parents for political gain and the approval of her Bard mentor, then lied to Briala about it for years while sharing her bed? And we aren't talking about a situation where Celene came and told her "I have some bad news about your parents...". Briala walked in and found her parents still warm bodies and Celene hiding in the corner. And Celene using the situation the further cement Briala's loyalty was considered such a master stroke by her Bard mentor that the Mentor died rather than deny Celene such a useful tool.

And this is all explicitly laid out by the characters, so there's not a lot of room for ambiguity.

So while I'm not opposed to a happy ending for Celene and Briala on principle, it's going to be a hard sell.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not against it in principle. There would simply have to be a very convincing and compelling story around why and how.

If it were just Celene being unable to deliver on her promises completely due to the realities of the Throne, I could see that being forgivable. Even rulers are not omnipotent, and if she did everything she could and came up short, well, an honest and complete effort leading to failure is not unforgivable.

My issue is that Celene stopped well short of that. She determined well before they ever got to the Eluvians that she wasn't going to even really try to give Briala what she wanted for the elves. Celene discarded it as feasible and settled on 'some improvements, but not equality, and they can be my personal Eluvian Attack force'. Worse, Gaspard called her on it, and Celene admitted it.

Add to that finding out that Celene personally murdered Briala's parents for political gain and the approval of her Bard mentor, then lied to Briala about it for years while sharing her bed? And we aren't talking about a situation where Celene came and told her "I have some bad news about your parents...". Briala walked in and found her parents still warm bodies and Celene hiding in the corner. And Celene using the situation the further cement Briala's loyalty was considered such a master stroke by her Bard mentor that the Mentor died rather than deny Celene such a useful tool.

And this is all explicitly laid out by the characters, so there's not a lot of room for ambiguity.

So while I'm not opposed to a happy ending for Celene and Briala on principle, it's going to be a hard sell.

Extremely thickly laid lesbian relationship betrayal aside, it would go a long way for Bioware to at least allow some kind of bloody happy ending in this scenario.

[jtav]

Um yeah, if that's an accurate summary, I think we can safely say Celene and Briala are done.

[Dean_the_Young]

Celene's reforms have been wholly contingent on never presenting a serious challenge to her rulership, they may well not last beyond her own lifespan, and Orlesian nobility seems to totally lack genuine altruists due to the nature of the Game, so I wouldn't say that any of this possesses the stability of a glacier, even if it might have the speed.

 

This is true of all social changes, including revolution. Revolutions that threaten their own ability to continue often fail. Revolutionary gains can be reversed within a lifetime- not too long ago you could still find people who had  lived in the Middle East through both the Ottomans and the Empires and Independence.

 

Reform doesn't depend on altruism, so it's rather bizaar you raise it as a requirement.

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, it's dependent on whatever the best option happens to be in-game, and that we don't yet know. I will do whatever happens to work best for the future of the elves, however.

 

Considering your desires for the elves includes dangerous and unnecessary risks whil encouraging racial divisions and race-based identity politics, I strongly doubt you will.

[LobselVith8]

I wonder if we'll be able to influence whether the City Elves and the Dalish Elves unite with each other. Difficult given the disdain the Dalish have for the City Elves.

I was thinking the difficulty might be the Dalish being "heathens" who have free mages among them as one of the possible issues for Andrastian elves who adhere to the teachings of the Chantry. There are also city elves who view the Dalish as savages, and who condemn some of their own brethren as 'flat ears', including the elves who try to build lives outside the Alienage (which typically ends in violence and burned down homes).

If an alliance can be forged, I think only some people among both groups may be an issue towards reconciliation for a common goal.

[Xilizhra]

This is true of all social changes, including revolution. Revolutions that threaten their own ability to continue often fail. Revolutionary gains can be reversed within a lifetime- not too long ago you could still find people who had  lived in the Middle East through both the Ottomans and the Empires and Independence.

 

Reform doesn't depend on altruism, so it's rather bizaar you raise it as a requirement.

True, both can be unstable. We need to know more.

 

 

 

Considering your desires for the elves includes dangerous and unnecessary risks whil encouraging racial divisions and race-based identity politics, I strongly doubt you will.

Virtually every decision based on values akin to "Western liberalism" has been relatively moderate and involved either the promotion of peace or simply the defense of innocents; the one that might be an exception, the crowning of Bhelen, turned out to be a radical reformist move that did mostly good things. So I doubt I'll have much of a chance to be swayed by something genuinely stupid.

[Iakus]

Add to that finding out that Celene personally murdered Briala's parents for political gain and the approval of her Bard mentor, then lied to Briala about it for years while sharing her bed? And we aren't talking about a situation where Celene came and told her "I have some bad news about your parents...". Briala walked in and found her parents still warm bodies and Celene hiding in the corner. And Celene using the situation the further cement Briala's loyalty was considered such a master stroke by her Bard mentor that the Mentor died rather than deny Celene such a useful tool.

And this is all explicitly laid out by the characters, so there's not a lot of room for ambiguity.
 

 

And interestingly, that's one of the lines Gaspard would never cross himself.

[TK514]

Extremely thickly laid lesbian relationship betrayal aside, it would go a long way for Bioware to at least allow some kind of bloody happy ending in this scenario.

I don't and never have disagreed with you on the need to show positive relationships for more than just hetero couples. And not just by BioWare, I but in general. A person's worth should be determined by their actions rather than what gender they are attracted to, and love should be celebrated, not discriminated against.

I could go on, and the post would be lengthy and not without anger, but this is not the forum for it.

Suffice it to say I would love a happy ending, I just can't see it right now for these two. If I'm wrong, I will be happy about it.

[TK514]

Yes, but also remember that Celene was to the rest of Orlais more or less losing when she vanished into the Eluvians. Outmanouvered in the Game and defeated in the field. Yes, she would probably have won over Gaspard quickly (especially since he was dropped near Val Chevin, which is hers). But her position would have been weaker. She would not nearly have the poltical clout to pull much off and would be forced to ally herself on someone else's terms.
 
Halamshiral gave her a victory and a chance to shine. And most importantly... become a better person.
 
It's a chance to win and to atone. But an extremely difficult path.
 
But I definantely do not see Briala directly working against either Gaspard or Celene anymore than she already has. She defeating them does not make her come any closer to her goal because what she needs to fight is systemic. Neither Gaspard nor Celene is defending it as such, they're just not doing enough/anything about it. She needed to prolong the civil war, she has. Now she has plenty of time for her plans. There's no more need for direct sabotage as such.

I love what you're saying, the book just doesn't support it. Because of the travel times involved, most of Orlais didn't know there was a Civil War going on yet. That was one of the reasons stated for it being so important that Celene got back to Val Royeaux as quickly as possible. It would let her spin the most damning story possible about Gaspard's treason and rally her power base plus outraged former neutrals. Gaspard couldn't have withstood that kind of force discrepancy and knew it.

And Briala explicitly states that she is directly opposing both sides. When Slow Arrow asks her who she will oppose, she states "whichever side is winning". Her entire purpose is to make the Civil War as long and as costly as possible to give her a chance to get the City Elves out and in a position not to be immediately re-subjugated by the victor. She even states in her internal dialog before she sent The Empress to Halimshiral that sending her to Val Royeaus would help Celene win the war and "she was done helping Celene". That's a quote.

I'm sorry. But there is nothing in the book that supports the idea that Briala meant to help Celene become a better person or win Briala back. The entire relationship was built and maintained with deception and dependency, and it ended when the deceptions were exposed and Celene cast off her dependency. The Empress even thinks about how she doubts that now she will have any trouble sleeping, even though she's sleeping alone. The book hammers you again and again that while they are heartbroken that the relationship is over, it is conclusively and unambiguously ended, and both feel better for it.

[In Exile]

Extremely thickly laid lesbian relationship betrayal aside, it would go a long way for Bioware to at least allow some kind of bloody happy ending in this scenario.

 

You know I'm with you on the principle - that we need positive role models of all forms of sexuality in media - but at least based on what people have written about the Celene-Briala dynamic in this thread I think it would be worse if they did get back together. Honestly, I think the way to fix this is to have Briala find a perfectly stable and  healthy S/S relationship with someone. 

[In Exile]

How well this would work does, admittedly, depend heavily upon how badly the Veil tears are affecting Orlais. However, the reasoning of "we needed the Dales' magic artifacts" doesn't seem so unreasonable, and if other nations wish to bar the Inquisition from entering them... well, good luck with the demons.

 

It's not just about Orlais, but about the rest of Thedas. Obviously the Inquisition - if it has the military might - can basically exploit and extort other countries into bowing down and allowing the organization to carve out the continent as it likes. But all that does is turn the Inquisition into a new Orlais from the POV of every person that was forced into submitting to its will at the end of a blade. 

 

All of a sudden, the Inquisition created a world order that's only stable if the Inquisition has the global military might to enforce it. Which, one, sets the Inquisition up as an antagonist to all of these other countries, and two, essentially forces the Inquisition to take on a quasi-military dictatorship role. 

 

The solution - in the short run - has to be elven cooperation with non-Orlesian neighbours that allows them to build power/ties to be able to stand as a country on their own. Basically, a "let's all carve up Orlais" strategy.

 

I'm not certain this is universally true. Yes, he is fighting for internal stability so that he can focus on expansion, which is currently best served by the status quo, but nothing that I remember about his characterization suggested he was personally actively opposed to long term reform. The closest you could get to that would be his use of Celene's missteps regarding reform as weapons against her in The Game to garner necessary support.

I suspect that he would judge proposals on reform based on merit, and if convinced would champion them. You'd just need to convince him first. I'm not suggesting he is without bias or fault when it comes to class relations, he is nobility in an actively feudal society, after all, but rather that those biases don't run as deeply or hold as much sway over him as they might other nobles.

 

Well, at the very least, we could say Gaspard would oppose the kind of reform that would move Orlais away from a militaristic society and toward a social democratic one. Meritocracies are nice, but there's a lot more to building a liberal society than that.

[Xilizhra]

You know I'm with you on the principle - that we need positive role models of all forms of sexuality in media - but at least based on what people have written about the Celene-Briala dynamic in this thread I think it would be worse if they did get back together. Honestly, I think the way to fix this is to have Briala find a perfectly stable and  healthy S/S relationship with someone. 

While such wouldn't be impossible, the principle of conservation of detail makes it far too unlikely.

 

 

It's not just about Orlais, but about the rest of Thedas. Obviously the Inquisition - if it has the military might - can basically exploit and extort other countries into bowing down and allowing the organization to carve out the continent as it likes. But all that does is turn the Inquisition into a new Orlais from the POV of every person that was forced into submitting to its will at the end of a blade. 

 

All of a sudden, the Inquisition created a world order that's only stable if the Inquisition has the global military might to enforce it. Which, one, sets the Inquisition up as an antagonist to all of these other countries, and two, essentially forces the Inquisition to take on a quasi-military dictatorship role. 

 

The solution - in the short run - has to be elven cooperation with non-Orlesian neighbours that allows them to build power/ties to be able to stand as a country on their own. Basically, a "let's all carve up Orlais" strategy.

Quite possible, but again, we'll have to see.

[In Exile]

While such wouldn't be impossible, the principle of conservation of detail makes it far too unlikely.

 

 

Quite possible, but again, we'll have to see.

 

It makes it unlikely, sure, but I'm just saying I'd prefer the game to feature healthy relationships that try to fix ones where it seems like one character is a sociopath. Re: the Inquisition stuff, yeah, we'll see, I just like theory-crafting fictional politics. 

[TK514]

 

Well, at the very least, we could say Gaspard would oppose the kind of reform that would move Orlais away from a militaristic society and toward a social democratic one. Meritocracies are nice, but there's a lot more to building a liberal society than that.

 

Definitely agree.  He does want an expansionist Empire.  He sees security in conquest, particularly in relation to the conquest of Ferelden.

[Xilizhra]

I love what you're saying, the book just doesn't support it. Because of the travel times involved, most of Orlais didn't know there was a Civil War going on yet. That was one of the reasons stated for it being so important that Celene got back to Val Royeaux as quickly as possible. It would let her spin the most damning story possible about Gaspard's treason and rally her power base plus outraged former neutrals. Gaspard couldn't have withstood that kind of force discrepancy and knew it.

And Briala explicitly states that she is directly opposing both sides. When Slow Arrow asks her who she will oppose, she states "whichever side is winning". Her entire purpose is to make the Civil War as long and as costly as possible to give her a chance to get the City Elves out and in a position not to be immediately re-subjugated by the victor. She even states in her internal dialog before she sent The Empress to Halimshiral that sending her to Val Royeaus would help Celene win the war and "she was done helping Celene". That's a quote.

I'm sorry. But there is nothing in the book that supports the idea that Briala meant to help Celene become a better person or win Briala back. The entire relationship was built and maintained with deception and dependency, and it ended when the deceptions were exposed and Celene cast off her dependency. The Empress even thinks about how she doubts that now she will have any trouble sleeping, even though she's sleeping alone. The book hammers you again and again that while they are heartbroken that the relationship is over, it is conclusively and unambiguously ended, and both feel better for it.

If they pick this to drive home some kind of message about unhealthy relationships, I'll... do something stupid.

[Aimi]

Well, at the very least, we could say Gaspard would oppose the kind of reform that would move Orlais away from a militaristic society and toward a social democratic one. Meritocracies are nice, but there's a lot more to building a liberal society than that.

"Militaristic" and "social democratic" are terms that, as far as I understand, have essentially no meaning or relevance to the situation in Thedas right now.

All rulers are essentially military dictators, so "militarism" is a pointless descriptor, rather like referring to the nations of Earth as "human".

And "social democratic" is meaningless because there is nothing even remotely close to democracy anywhere in the setting shown to us thus far, there is no concept of class consciousness, there is no advanced state taxation apparatus and therefore no serious capacity for any state to handle anything more complex than patronage and military spending. The violence in Halamshiral and such isn't evidence of a communist specter haunting Thedas, it's more like a jacquerie with racial politics mixed in.

[Hellion Rex]

Definitely agree.  He does want an expansionist Empire.  He sees security in conquest, particularly in relation to the conquest of Ferelden.

Depending if the human mage is Ferelden or not, I wonder, if we end up supporting Gaspard, if we could perhaps curb his antagonism towards Ferelden.

[Wissenschaft]

I'll just point out that Celene didn't lose the game to Gaspard. Shes better at it then him. It why he first turn to trying to personally assassinate her and then tried a military ambush. The whole mocking play incident was simply to get Celene to personally march against the elven rebels which would leave her exposed to his planned ambush.

 

I imagine most people in the empire don't have a clue whats going on and the common folk likely don't care. Either way, a civil war is very bad news for them no matter whos involved.

[TK514]

If they pick this to drive home some kind of message about unhealthy relationships, I'll... do something stupid.

 

 

I'll admit it isn't how I expect the relationship to play out.  I knew they would end up apart, but I thought it would be solely due to the conflicting needs of Orlais vs The Elves, duty vs desire.  A situation where they love each other, but realize they need to be apart for a time. 

 

The (in my opinion) blatant dependency and complete betrayal aspects took me by surprise.

 

In a broader sense, I had preconceptions about who I thought Celene and Gaspard would be, and I was almost completely wrong.  So that was a happy surprised.  Both characters had unexpected depth, and I liked that.  I'm hopeful it will translate into the game, for more than just these two.

[The Ascendant]

As both novels are set at the same time and occur after DA2, they act as a prequel, helping set the stage and explain the motivations and ambitions of the characters in both novels. The revelations of the decadence of Orleasian society, the flagrant racism and treatment of elves (already apparent in Origins, but brought to a whole new level in the Masked Empire) as second class citizens, the 'cure' for Tranquillity, the motivation to the Mage-Templar War and Orleasian Civil War and the discovery that the ancient elves of Arlathan were no better than contemporary Orlais brings a whole new dimension to this complex and morally ambiguous world. It will largely be up to the Inquisitor to resolve these situations and determine what kind of Thedas you will make after you save it from annihilation.

Looking forward to being an elven mage Inquisitor! The epitome of both power and sophistication! 

P.S. Am I the only one who notices some similarities with the plight of the Elves and the plight of the Jews in Medieval Europe?

[Xilizhra]

I'll admit it isn't how I expect the relationship to play out.  I knew they would end up apart, but I thought it would be solely due to the conflicting needs of Orlais vs The Elves, duty vs desire.  A situation where they love each other, but realize they need to be apart for a time. 

 

The (in my opinion) blatant dependency and complete betrayal aspects took me by surprise.

 

In a broader sense, I had preconceptions about who I thought Celene and Gaspard would be, and I was almost completely wrong.  So that was a happy surprised.  Both characters had unexpected depth, and I liked that.  I'm hopeful it will translate into the game, for more than just these two.

As of now, I care about nothing in that piece of crap other than fixing this problem, and the Eluvians. Imshael's nothing special after Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, the Dalish were idiotic strawmen and everyone else is yet another Orlesian noble. I'm extremely angry at Celene, but I won't necessarily kill her if this issue can be resolved.

[Iakus]

I'll just point out that Celene didn't lose the game to Gaspard. Shes better at it then him. It why he first turn to trying to personally assassinate her and then tried a military ambush. The whole mocking play incident was simply to get Celene to personally march against the elven rebels which would leave her exposed to his planned ambush.

 

I imagine most people in the empire don't have a clue whats going on and the common folk likely don't care. Either way, a civil war is very bad news for them no matter whos involved.

 

Based on Asunder, word was jsut starting to get out about Celene and Gaspard when the whole mage/templar thing came apart too.

[AresKeith]

As of now, I care about nothing in that piece of crap other than fixing this problem, and the Eluvians. Imshael's nothing special after Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, the Dalish were idiotic strawmen and everyone else is yet another Orlesian noble. I'm extremely angry at Celene, but I won't necessarily kill her if this issue can be resolved.

So mad

[TK514]

Depending if the human mage is Ferelden or not, I wonder, if we end up supporting Gaspard, if we could perhaps curb his antagonism towards Ferelden.

 

I doubt it.  My impression is that Gaspard sees Ferelden as critical to Orlesian security.  With the conquest of Ferelden, Orlais would dominate the Western Sea, have access to the breadbasket of the Bannorn, and never have to worry about a war on two fronts should enemies to the east start getting ambitious.