1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfen09]

he and the demon did seem to know each other when they first went down to meet him

[Cobra's_back]

Yup, considering he praises Briala's skills as Celene's spymaster, as well as keeps the elven-blooded Michel's secret. He may treat elves as he would any other poor commoner in Orlais, he doesn't even remotely consider them to be animals.

 

I didn't see this. He wants the elves where they belong in the slums. Does he have potential by the end of the book when he learns about the elven-blooded Michel'? Maybe

 

His comment saying that Briala is dangerous may translate to his intention to crack down on the Elves. Hopefully, he will be too busy fighting Celene. As i see it Briala maybe the person that comes out ahead here. 

 

If she is smart and we know she is, she will wait for the two of them to defeat themselves and move in. 

[Wolfen09]

thats her plan, or so she says at the end of TME...  I dont think it will happen though, more than likely she will appeal to the inquisition for help to help her fight, and if we are picking one side or the other, it doesnt really coincide with her goals unless the inquisition negotiates on her behalf

[Cobra's_back]

I really like Michel and hope to see him in the game. 

[Cobra's_back]

he and the demon did seem to know each other when they first went down to meet him

 

"Hello, Slow Arrow" The demon smile. " It's been some time. How've you been?" 

 

Demon said, Don't forget the keystone. Felassen nodded, Appreciate it and have fun.

 

They did seem to know each other.

[Tinu]

I disagree with the notion that the Dalish elves will be less important than the City elves. It's just that the story of the City elves is already told (for the largest part). 

 

The use of the Eluvians will surely be one of the reasons the Veil rips open? There is way too much magic at work.

[TheJediSaint]

He showed a lot of respect to Ramache and even made a point of apologizing to him for not realizing right away that "there is honor outside the Chevaliers."

 

Yes, but he also stabbed Remache in the face for "unacceptable" behavior.

[MWImexico]

Yes, but he also stabbed Remache in the face for "unacceptable" behavior.

 

Yeah, I didn't understood that too at first. It seems that for a Chevalier, to use deceitful methods to win is considered acceptable if the Chevalier is in an open war with an enemy. Though Gaspard didn't give much time to Celene before he tried to eliminate her during the hunting...

Also, the word of honnor of a Chevalier seems to be more important for him/her than everything else (see Michel at the end of the book).

...So, maybe it will be usefull to read the code(x) of honnor of the Chevaliers before concluding an aliance with one of them. 

[wcholcombe]

Gaspard had given his word to cease hostilities until they got the eluvians. Remache attacking Celene during the alliance was a stain on his honor as Remache was his man. There are limits to what his honor allows. Just as while Celene considered killing Gaspard,and Briala wanted her to, after dealing with the arcane horrors, she couldn't do so honorably especially after they had a formal alliance.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The reason she didn't kill Gaspard was because Michel interrupted her before she decided, because letting her kill a fellow Chevalier would have been a stain on his honor.

[wcholcombe]

The reason she didn't kill Gaspard was because Michel interrupted her before she decided, because letting her kill a fellow Chevalier would have been a stain on his honor.

No, she was struggling with the temptation to do it.  Briala is mad because Celene couldn't do it. Celene considered it but couldn't actually bring herself to do it. If she was that cold and blood thirsty, she would have had plenty of time to do it before Michel spoke up to Gaspard.

 

BTW, it would have had nothing to do with her killing a fellow chevalier, it was because at that moment Michel considered them to still be in a truce, which is also the reason Celene didn't take advantage of the opportunity to kill him that was presented to her.

[wcholcombe]

I disagree with the notion that the Dalish elves will be less important than the City elves. It's just that the story of the City elves is already told (for the largest part). 

 

The use of the Eluvians will surely be one of the reasons the Veil rips open? There is way too much magic at work.

I don't think so. I did at one time but not anymore.  I think the CEs will play some role in the OCW, but not as an actual fighting force.  I think the Dalish plot/role will be centered around the Arlathyven.  I don't know what exactly causes the veil tears.  But I don't think the eluvians cause it...at least not directly.

[Cobra's_back]

The mages and the Dalish:

 

This is from the Scrolls of Banastor:

 

"The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind. "

 

It appears that some mages and Dalish try to play a battle of wit with these demons but it really doesn't work. They lump them up as just spirits not demons and spirits. 

 

The Eluvian was crafted by the elves of Arlathan to be used as portals for telecommunication and rapid transportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium.

 

I wish i knew how they were made and why was Merrill using blood to repair one?? Why was she so trusting of demons? Did they think they could control them?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, she was struggling with the temptation to do it.  Briala is mad because Celene couldn't do it. Celene considered it but couldn't actually bring herself to do it. If she was that cold and blood thirsty, she would have had plenty of time to do it before Michel spoke up to Gaspard.

 

BTW, it would have had nothing to do with her killing a fellow chevalier, it was because at that moment Michel considered them to still be in a truce, which is also the reason Celene didn't take advantage of the opportunity to kill him that was presented to her.

 

I reread the section in the book right after the fight with the two revenants and the arcane horror. Michel stops her from doing it because he it would have stained his chevalier honor to break the truce, but he did it because it seemed like Celene was going to go through with it. It even says "He pretended not to see the flash of frustration in Celene's eyes."

[wcholcombe]

I reread the section in the book right after the fight with the two revenants and the arcane horror. Michel stops her from doing it because he it would have stained his chevalier honor to break the truce, but he did it because it seemed like Celene was going to go through with it. It even says "He pretended not to see the flash of frustration in Celene's eyes."

And what does Briala say right after that watching the whole thing, sure Celene was frustrated because Michel took the decision out of her hands, but I don't think Celene would have taken advantage of the opportunity anyway.  But who knows.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Briala was frustrated at Celene because she was far away and couldn't see exactly what was going on.

[LobselVith8]

The mages and the Dalish:

 

This is from the Scrolls of Banastor:

 

"The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind. "

 

It appears that some mages and Dalish try to play a battle of wit with these demons but it really doesn't work. They lump them up as just spirits not demons and spirits. 

 

Bargaining with spirits doesn't tend to lead to victory for anyone. Typically, the Dalish don't deal with spirits because of their perception of them as dangerous (Clan Virnehn is the exception to the rule). As WoT reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

 

Also, Andrastians presently take the view of Spirits and Demons due to cultural and religious views, which differ from the Dalish elves. According to the codex entry, "The Maker's First Children", "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion." It later adds, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

This is echoed in the religious debates between Anders and Merrill, where Anders argues that Spirits are the Children of the Maker, and that Demons turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity to embody different "sins", while Merrill views all spirits as dangerous.

 

I find the differences interesting. Hopefully, the elven Inquisitor can express views that adhere to cultural norms within Dalish society, from the view of spirits to the perceptions of the Creators and the Eternal City. It will be interesting to see the possible reactions available to the Dalish protagonist when discovering the ancient magic of the Eluvians, or the ruins of Elvhenan.

 

The Eluvian was crafted by the elves of Arlathan to be used as portals for telecommunication and rapid transportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium.

 

I wish i knew how they were made and why was Merrill using blood to repair one?? Why was she so trusting of demons? Did they think they could control them?

 

Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the taint from the shard she took, as she lacked the lyrium necessary to use ordinary magic to cleanse it. She was basically building an Eluvian from lore she gathered on the Eluvians and information she extrapolated from the shard, then building one while incorporating the shard she took from the Elven Ruins into it's construction.

 

As for Audacity, it was bound to a statute and sundered from the Fade, so she verbally spoke with it to learn blood magic. Merrill cautions that you can learn things from spirits without making a bargain with one, as she says when confronting the Profane Abomination and Torpor, since you can learn about the primeval thaig and the crisis with Feynriel respectively, and then attack both without making any agreement with either one.

[Wolfen09]

The mages and the Dalish:

 

This is from the Scrolls of Banastor:

 

"The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind. "

 

It appears that some mages and Dalish try to play a battle of wit with these demons but it really doesn't work. They lump them up as just spirits not demons and spirits. 

 

The Eluvian was crafted by the elves of Arlathan to be used as portals for telecommunication and rapid transportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium.

 

I wish i knew how they were made and why was Merrill using blood to repair one?? Why was she so trusting of demons? Did they think they could control them?

 

the battle of wills thing is what the harrowing for a circle mage is, its to see if you can resist the temptation of a demon, which is a battle of wills

[wcholcombe]

Bargaining with spirits doesn't tend to lead to victory for anyone. Typically, the Dalish don't deal with spirits because of their perception of them as dangerous (Clan Virnehn is the exception to the rule). As WoT reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

 

Also, Andrastians presently take the view of Spirits and Demons due to cultural and religious views, which differ from the Dalish elves. According to the codex entry, "The Maker's First Children", "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion." It later adds, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

This is echoed in the religious debates between Anders and Merrill, where Anders argues that Spirits are the Children of the Maker, and that Demons turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity to embody different "sins", while Merrill views all spirits as dangerous.

 

I find the differences interesting. Hopefully, the elven Inquisitor can express views that adhere to cultural norms within Dalish society, from the view of spirits to the perceptions of the Creators and the Eternal City. It will be interesting to see the possible reactions available to the Dalish protagonist when discovering the ancient magic of the Eluvians, or the ruins of Elvhenan.

 

 

I hope that at some point either the game or the devs address this bit of inconsistency.  Whether it is a matter of the Dalish clans vary greatly on their beliefs due to their isolation, Fellessan is full of it( I actually hope not, I liked him), Clan Virnhen is an outlier, Merril isn't as knowledgeable as we think, or it is a matter of us misinterpreting the information at hand, I would like it answered.

 

As for the matter of reactions yes, I would hope that your race greatly affects reactions to various things.  A dalish should react more to ancient elven ruins, Dwarves should react to thags and deep roads, humans I guess to stuff relating to Andraste or Tevinter Imperium ruins, and Vashoth to .....cookies.

[LobselVith8]

I hope that at some point either the game or the devs address this bit of inconsistency.  Whether it is a matter of the Dalish clans vary greatly on their beliefs due to their isolation, Fellessan is full of it( I actually hope not, I liked him), Clan Virnhen is an outlier, Merril isn't as knowledgeable as we think, or it is a matter of us misinterpreting the information at hand, I would like it answered.

 

As for the matter of reactions yes, I would hope that your race greatly affects reactions to various things.  A dalish should react more to ancient elven ruins, Dwarves should react to thags and deep roads, humans I guess to stuff relating to Andraste or Tevinter Imperium ruins, and Vashoth to .....cookies.

 

I don't really understand why any Dalish clan would hold beliefs similar to the ones espoused by Andrastians, but it may merit a discussion in it's own thread, since I know Ieldra said earlier she doesn't want the elves to be the focus of this thread.

[Sir JK]

Whether it is a matter of the Dalish clans vary greatly on their beliefs due to their isolation, Fellessan is full of it( I actually hope not, I liked him), Clan Virnhen is an outlier, Merril isn't as knowledgeable as we think, or it is a matter of us misinterpreting the information at hand, I would like it answered.

 

I think it's a little bit of all of these actually. I doubt we're ever going to get any straight answers here. Instead, we're just going to get even more details that we'll have difficulty putting in... all being part of the same greater picture. The more we get the more we'll be willing to accept that things are not so clear cut but that it is all part of the whole.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I didn't understood that too at first. It seems that for a Chevalier, to use deceitful methods to win is considered acceptable if the Chevalier is in an open war with an enemy. Though Gaspard didn't give much time to Celene before he tried to eliminate her during the hunting...

Also, the word of honnor of a Chevalier seems to be more important for him/her than everything else (see Michel at the end of the book).

...So, maybe it will be usefull to read the code(x) of honnor of the Chevaliers before concluding an aliance with one of them. 

I already know I'll never work with them. 

[wcholcombe]

I don't really understand why any Dalish clan would hold beliefs similar to the ones espoused by Andrastians, but it may merit a discussion in it's own thread, since I know Ieldra said earlier she doesn't want the elves to be the focus of this thread.

Thread created.  BTW I replied to this comment at the end of it.

[Wolfen09]

after 2 games, we have a little bit of an understanding of dalish culture, but when it comes to the religious side, we have very little on their rites and worshiping rituals.  You could argue the whole eternal sleep in uthenara thing, but i dont see that as religious thing... more of a cultural thing

[wcholcombe]

after 2 games, we have a little bit of an understanding of dalish culture, but when it comes to the religious side, we have very little on their rites and worshiping rituals.  You could argue the whole eternal sleep in uthenara thing, but i dont see that as religious thing... more of a cultural thing

Uthenera is Arlathan not Dalish.  But again, the op asked that this not turn into an elf topic.