1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Yeah, I didn't understood that too at first. It seems that for a Chevalier, to use deceitful methods to win is considered acceptable if the Chevalier is in an open war with an enemy. Though Gaspard didn't give much time to Celene before he tried to eliminate her during the hunting...

Also, the word of honnor of a Chevalier seems to be more important for him/her than everything else (see Michel at the end of the book).

...So, maybe it will be usefull to read the code(x) of honnor of the Chevaliers before concluding an aliance with one of them. 

 

It seems a chevalier's honor allows them to exploit the weaknesses of an enemy, but not to be outright deceptive.

 

I mean, in his duel with Ser Michel, they took advantage of each other's damaged equipment to give them an edge.  But breaking your given word is a HUGE no-no.

 

And yeah, one constant of chevaliers is their honor.  As in "death before dis-"

[Cobra's_back]

"I find the differences interesting. Hopefully, the elven Inquisitor can express views that adhere to cultural norms within Dalish society, from the view of spirits to the perceptions of the Creators and the Eternal City. It will be interesting to see the possible reactions available to the Dalish protagonist when discovering the ancient magic of the Eluvians, or the ruins of Elvhenan."

 

I would love to find out more. The book certainly got me interested in it. 

[Wolfen09]

Uthenera is Arlathan not Dalish.  But again, the op asked that this not turn into an elf topic.

 

But the dalish consider those of arlathan as a part of their past culture, just because they dont have much in terms of records of their past doesnt mean it still isnt part of their culture...  but then again if that was the case then the city elves would have that too...  point made

 

anyway who cares what the op says, its not like this is the only topic to be derailed

[MWImexico]

It seems a chevalier's honor allows them to exploit the weaknesses of an enemy, but not to be outright deceptive.

 

I mean, in his duel with Ser Michel, they took advantage of each other's damaged equipment to give them an edge.  But breaking your given word is a HUGE no-no.

 

And yeah, one constant of chevaliers is their honor.  As in "death before dis-"

 

Well, I don't know. In my point of view, Gaspard acted sometimes in a deceptive way, that's why I thought that probably, the code of the Chevalier allowed him to act like that.

I mean, remember the way he tried to trick Teagan into a battle, or how he tricked Celene about the elven rebellion, hoping she will react and do exactly what she did : fall into a trap outside of Halamshiral? Remache was there and he didn't understand Gaspard's behaviour. It's no surprise that, not knowing the rules of the Chevalier's code, at the end of the book Remache is lost. It's like saying : "ok, the other time we could act deceptively, that's called strategy, but now, no no, we can't, I gave my word". Simple if explained but strange for someone not aware.

Otherwise I agree with what you said about the attachement of the Chevalier to their honor. I was just trying to understand the limits of the Chevaliers' rules, and the dangers my Inquisitor could risk because of those rules.

[wcholcombe]

But the dalish consider those of arlathan as a part of their past culture, just because they dont have much in terms of records of their past doesnt mean it still isnt part of their culture... but then again if that was the case then the city elves would have that too... point made

anyway who cares what the op says, its not like this is the only topic to be derailed

I was meaning it isn't something the dalish know how to do. It is a forgotten art for them. It is a legend they speak of but don't know how to do it anymore.

[Iakus]

Well, I don't know. In my point of view, Gaspard acted sometimes in a deceptive way, that's why I thought that probably, the code of the Chevalier allowed him to act like that.

I mean, remember the way he tried to trick Teagan into a battle, or how he tricked Celene about the elven rebellion, hoping she will react and do exactly what she did : fall into a trap outside of Halamshiral? Remache was there and he didn't understand Gaspard's behaviour. It's no surprise that, not knowing the rules of the Chevalier's code, at the end of the book Remache is lost. It's like saying : "ok, the other time we could act deceptively, that's called strategy, but now, no no, we can't, I gave my word". Simple if explained but strange for someone not aware.

Otherwise I agree with what you said about the attachement of the Chevalier to their honor. I was just trying to understand the limits of the Chevaliers' rules, and the dangers my Inquisitor could risk because of those rules.

 

In the first case, he was needling Teagan in order to get him to do something that would allow Gaspard to take action.  .  So he teased him, needled him, and insulted Ferelden in order to bait him into acting out. He couldn't just walk up and punch him, after all.  He needed a justification to cause a scene Same way he couldn't violate a truce with Celene unless she broke it first, and could not tolerate Remache doing so on his behalf.

 

I got the impression that the play was Remache's idea.  Though Gaspard did go along with it.  But that, again is more of a baiting, teasing attempt to provoke a reaction, rather than a definitive statement.  

 

The second case was simply "tactics"  Ambush a tired force caught in the open.  The only part that would strike me as dishonest is one would think a noble of a Grand Duke's rank would have sworn fealty to the throne of Orlais.  Though I suppose if he could justify to himself that Celene's claim was illegitimate (and WoT suggests that some nobles think this) then he could justify attacking her.  Especially when he gave her clear warning at the hunting trip that he would be coming after her.

 

I'm sure the chevalier's code is quite intricate.  But the impression I get is that telling deliberate falsehoods is not permitted in most cases.  Though allowing others to draw their own conclusions on what is said is all right.

[Stella-Arc]

In the first case, he was needling Teagan in order to get him to do something that would allow Gaspard to take action.  .  So he teased him, needled him, and insulted Ferelden in order to bait him into acting out. He couldn't just walk up and punch him, after all.  He needed a justification to cause a scene Same way he couldn't violate a truce with Celene unless she broke it first, and could not tolerate Remache doing so on his behalf.

 

I got the impression that the play was Remache's idea.  Though Gaspard did go along with it.  But that, again is more of a baiting, teasing attempt to provoke a reaction, rather than a definitive statement.  

 

The second case was simply "tactics"  Ambush a tired force caught in the open.  The only part that would strike me as dishonest is one would think a noble of a Grand Duke's rank would have sworn fealty to the throne of Orlais.  Though I suppose if he could justify to himself that Celene's claim was illegitimate (and WoT suggests that some nobles think this) then he could justify attacking her.  Especially when he gave her clear warning at the hunting trip that he would be coming after her.

 

I'm sure the chevalier's code is quite intricate.  But the impression I get is that telling deliberate falsehoods is not permitted in most cases.  Though allowing others to draw their own conclusions on what is said is all right.

 

There were certain moments where things became muddy when it came to succession.

 

According to the lore before The Masked Empire, Celene had the least claim since she was the only child to the younger sister of the late Emperor Florian (older cousins and such). However, according to the World of Thedas, the title "Prince/Princess" is given to direct family members of the ruler, including siblings and children. Codex entries state that Celene's mother was the one related to the Emperor but in TME, the title is given to Celene's father, Prince Reynaud. We don't even know the mother's name. To make the situation even more confusing, the title of Grand Duke is given to those who were once prince/princess but are no longer related to the current emperor/empress. What gets me is that everyone thought Gaspard would take the throne but he doesn't have much claim to it, Celene does since she is related to Florian through either mother or father and her father was the Prince, making her a Princess. The book even claims that both Celene and Gaspard are distant cousins so even if Florian was still alive, he wouldn't be related to him since he isn't entirely related to Celene who is the full niece of the late Emperor Florian. 

 

So...yeah. 

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There were certain moments where things became muddy when it came to succession.

 

According to the lore before The Masked Empire, Celene had the least claim since she was the only child to the younger sister of the late Emperor Florian (older cousins and such). However, according to the World of Thedas, the title "Prince/Princess" is given to direct family members of the ruler, including siblings and children. Codex entries state that Celene's mother was the one related to the Emperor but in TME, the title is given to Celene's father, Prince Reynaud. We don't even know the mother's name. To make the situation even more confusing, the title of Grand Duke is given to those who were once prince/princess but are no longer related to the current emperor/empress. What gets me is that everyone thought Gaspard would take the throne but he doesn't have much claim to it, Celene does since she is related to Florian through either mother or father and her father was the Prince, making her a Princess. The book even claims that both Celene and Gaspard are distant cousins so even if Florian was still alive, he wouldn't be related to him since he isn't entirely related to Celene who is the full niece of the late Emperor Florian. 

 

So...yeah. 

 

Yeah, lines of succession get confusing after a while.

 

Also, I love the movie your gif comes from.

[MWImexico]

@ Iakus :
I think Gaspard knew what he was doing, even when he killed Remache, I could hardly blame him since Remache's betrayal of the truce could have lead to everybody's dead (the Varterral was the biggest threat at that moment, not Celene). So, even that was strategic (though I would probably not have killed the guy, a good punch in the face would have been enough). But yeah, I also think that Gaspard wanted to keep his word and his honor by taking care of Remache himself (honor and strategy are not mutually exclusive).

But to come back to this :

... But the impression I get is that telling deliberate falsehoods is not permitted in most cases.

Just read again the page 153 in the book, here some lines :

"The interresting thing," Gaspard said, looking at her thoughtfully, "is that you just told me that you knew I'd set that up, so Celene would have to come in and crush those rebels. But rather than blame me for setting the trap, you blame her for walking into it.

....

Briala glared at him. "You're lying," she said, and her voice cracked. "Apparently, I lie even less than I think I do," Gaspard said with a grin .. 
 

[JeffZero]

Only thing I'm kind of lost on is what the implication was re: Felassan. I've only played the games once apiece so I'm no lore guru. Was he likely an awakened dreamer? That's all I can gather.

[Hellion Rex]

Only thing I'm kind of lost on is what the implication was re: Felassan. I've only played the games once apiece so I'm no lore guru. Was he likely an awakened dreamer? That's all I can gather.

Felassan was a Dreamer, just like Feynriel from DA2 and Magister Aurelian TItus from the comics.

[Wolfen09]

dreamer huh, i had a weird dream last night i think... it involved pizza, baseball, dragons, and someone announcing the last mage character to be rhys...  i really need to take a break from the forums for a while if its starting to affect my dreams...

[MisterJB]

And he was terribly disappoiting.

 

I wonder if the reason Bioware gave the elves a morally ambiguous goal while also granting them a measure of power was so that siding against them in DAI could be justifiable.

[Wolfen09]

i would think so, there will be something in there that would make us have to shoot them down...  i mean i think of skyrims civil war in terms of this....  empire wants order restored, but they want to restrict the religion, nords want freedom and freedom of religion, but hate anyone who isnt a nord....  thats what i see happening, the elves want freedom, but they want to kill all humans in orlais to get it or something to that effect

[JeffZero]

Felassan was a Dreamer, just like Feynriel from DA2 and Magister Aurelian TItus from the comics.

Ah, gotcha.

[Milan92]

And he was terribly disappoiting.

 

I wonder if the reason Bioware gave the elves a morally ambiguous goal while also granting them a measure of power was so that siding against them in DAI could be justifiable.

 

Yeah because otherwise.... siding against elves?! The cheek of it!

[Hellion Rex]

And he was terribly disappoiting.

 

I wonder if the reason Bioware gave the elves a morally ambiguous goal while also granting them a measure of power was so that siding against them in DAI could be justifiable.

Yeah, I kinda expected more. But then again, strength in the Fade I guess doesn't necessarily translate to greater power in the material world.

[MisterJB]

I dislike elves as much as anyone but it's kind of hard to justify siding against the powerless lower class when their only request is "Please stop coming to our side of the city and purging it."

On the other hand, if they are prolonging a civil war through the use of arcane artifacts, then they suddenly become a much more acceptable target.

[Xilizhra]

I dislike elves as much as anyone but it's kind of hard to justify siding against the powerless lower class when their only request is "Please stop coming to our side of the city and purging it."

On the other hand, if they are prolonging a civil war through the use of arcane artifacts, then they suddenly become a much more acceptable target.

Indeed, so let us thoroughly hope that that isn't the plot.

[Hellion Rex]

I dislike elves as much as anyone but it's kind of hard to justify siding against the powerless lower class when their only request is "Please stop coming to our side of the city and purging it."

On the other hand, if they are prolonging a civil war through the use of arcane artifacts, then they suddenly become a much more acceptable target.

Still, I feel kinda bad attacking the city elves versus the Dalish in that regard.

[Hellion Rex]

Indeed, so let us thoroughly hope that that isn't the plot.

It certainly will be a piece, as it is bound to come up in the whole side plot of the Orlesian Civil War.

[Xilizhra]

It certainly will be a piece, as it is bound to come up in the whole side plot of the Orlesian Civil War.

True. My main hope is that the Eluvians will be required and that the Orlesian civil war will have to end with negotiating with one of the belligerents in favor of a pro-elven position.

[Milan92]

I dislike elves as much as anyone but it's kind of hard to justify siding against the powerless lower class when their only request is "Please stop coming to our side of the city and purging it."

On the other hand, if they are prolonging a civil war through the use of arcane artifacts, then they suddenly become a much more acceptable target.

 

The city elves are okay in my book. I'll try to help them whenever I can.

[Hellion Rex]

True. My main hope is that the Eluvians will be required and that the Orlesian civil war will have to end with negotiating with one of the belligerents in favor of a pro-elven position.

Pro-City Elf or Pro-Dalish Elf? Cause there is definitely some divergence between those two view points.

[MisterJB]

Still, I feel kinda bad attacking the city elves versus the Dalish in that regard.

I would dislike the city elves a whole lot less if it wasn't for some of their defendants in these forums.