1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

And in the end, Michel keeps his honor, leaves Celene's service, and goes on what may well be a suicide mission to put down a very powerful and malevolent demon

 

The Forbidden One's are demons ._.

[TheJediSaint]

The Forbidden One's are demons ._.

 

Yes, but's it's rude to remind them of that.

[MisterJB]

Applying the logic Lobselvith is using to defend siding with Briala and prolonging a civil war, I can say that, since the chevaliers protect orlesians citizens from the nation's enemies; which include the elves; they have saved far more elven lives than those they killed.

 

 

And let's be fair, the instructor claimed that the elves to be killed had harmed nobles. Of course, the veracity of this claim can be called into question but it may aslo be true and the city guards reserve elven criminals for the chevalier's initiation.

[Master Warder Z_]

I didn't say their deaths didn't matter, but it can lead to a better future for the elves, and less bloodshed in the long run. If it ends the tyranny against the elves, then I think the conflict is justified.

 

Amazing how War when it benefits a favored faction is justified, but when it is aimed at that faction it isn't.

 

You know for all the West harped on him: Gaddafi seized power with out firing a single bullet, He changed society, cultural values with no one dying.

 

And yet he was a "Tyrant".

[Shadow Fox]

Yeah there are some pretty horrific stories about chevaliers in the Dragon Age literature.  But Michel, and to a lesser extent Gaspard, demonstrate that it's still possible to live by their codes and be decent individuals.  Many simply...don't.

 

And in the end, Michel keeps his honor, leaves Celene's service, and goes on what may well be a suicide mission to put down a very powerful and malevolent demon Fade spirit he unwittingly released, to atone for the deaths of the Dalish it killed

So the Chevaliers are basically Knights.

[Iakus]

Oh, believe me, Gaspard is my main target. To be honest, I think there's a fair chance that Justinia won't even be alive when DAI comes out, but I will not, in hindsight, target her for this alone... I'll have to know what her overall policies are, first.

Celene, on the other hand, is a backstabbing little weasel whose main advantage is her not being a vicious imperialist.

 

That's kind of the theme for the book

 

None of the factions are paragons of virtue.  Not Gaspard.  Not Celene.  Not Briala.  Not the Dalish. 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah there are some pretty horrific stories about chevaliers in the Dragon Age literature.  But Michel, and to a lesser extent Gaspard, demonstrate that it's still possible to live by their codes and be decent individuals.  Many simply...don't.

 

And in the end, Michel keeps his honor, leaves Celene's service, and goes on what may well be a suicide mission to put down a very powerful and malevolent demon Fade spirit he unwittingly released, to atone for the deaths of the Dalish it killed

I disagree, in that joining them appears to require horrific acts that are never properly atoned for, given that none of them seemed to have done anything to stop the practice.

 

To quote Order of the Stick, "You may never balance the scales. You may never make it up to those who died on your watch. But giving up on fixing it is like killing them all over again."

[Master Warder Z_]

And let's be fair, the instructor claimed that the elves to be killed had harmed nobles. Of course, the veracity of this claim can be called into question but it may aslo be true and the city guards reserve elven criminals for the chevalier's initiation.

 

Better they die in service to their Nation then merely rot in prisons sucking up resources to maintain.

 

You figured monitored work detail would be massive in dragon age, but it really isn't.

 

I mean prisoners are such a cheap labor force to maintain and use.

[Iakus]

So the Chevaliers are basically Knights.

 

That's exactly what they are.  Chevalier evenmeans horseman" in French. 

 

It's where the word "cavalier" comes from.

[Shadow Fox]

Applying the logic Lobselvith is using to defend siding with Briala and prolonging a civil war, I can say that, since the chevaliers protect orlesians citizens from the nation's enemies; which include the elves; they have saved far more elven lives than those they killed.

 

 

And let's be fair, the instructor claimed that the elves to be killed had harmed nobles. Of course, the veracity of this claim can be called into question but it may aslo be true and the city guards reserve elven criminals for the chevalier's initiation.

Or Hawke siding with the Templars saved more lives in the long term.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's kind of the theme for the book

 

None of the factions are paragons of virtue.  Not Gaspard.  Not Celene.  Not Briala.  Not the Dalish. 

 

Especially not the Dalish.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or Hawke siding with the Templars saved more lives in the long term.

 

It likely did, It restored a bit of stability to a city that needed it.

[Hellion Rex]

Or Hawke siding with the Templars saved more lives in the long term.

Yeah...no

[Divine Justinia V]

It likely did, It restored a bit of stability to a city that needed it.

 

not really

[Milan92]

Better they die in service to their Nation then merely rot in prisons sucking up resources to maintain.

 

You figured monitored work detail would be massive in dragon age, but it really isn't.

 

I mean prisoners are such a cheap labor force to maintain and use.

 

Die in service to their Nation indeed!

[MWImexico]

I found him to be very sympathetic.  He's the child of an elven protitute and an unknown father, grew up in absolutely wretched conditions until he was taken in by a kindly nobleman. 

 

Since then, he's tried to reinvent himself, to make himself ito something more. To not let his past define him.  He pushed and pushed to become the best, eventually rising to become the Empress's champion.  His battle cry of "I am Ser Michel de Chevin!" is quite meaningful.  He's defining not just himself in his but who he wishes to be.  What he has turned himself into.

 

Briala's act threatened to turn him back into that elf-blooded orphan in the slums again.  And then executed for daring to try to rise above that.

 

I like him too but I think he shouldn't be ashamed of what he truly is: an elf-blooded orphan who became the Empress's champion through efforts and merits. But the Orlesian society is not ready to accept him fully, neither was he.

Briala's intention was to improve the living of the CE, to allow them to be recognized and get more rights, for exemple the right to rise in society without being forced to hide your humble origine.

[LobselVith8]

He tied himself to the wrong horse. One that's long overdue for a trip to the glue factory, if I might extend my metaphor that far. The entire chevalier institution seems far worse than I had thought, if what LobselVith said about their initiation rites is true.

It is true, as you can read here:

"The masters have passed out a skin of strongwine, pushed the students out of the coaches, and said, test your blades. Thrice this year, the elves of these streets have done injury to a lord of Orlais, and once a lady. Go forth and mete out the justice of the chevaliers of Orlais.

"Michel had known that the tale the masters had told was mostly likely a lie, and that even if it were true, they had no way of knowing which elves had committed the crime. He had also known that the truth was not the point of this last test. He had drunk the wine, and tested his blade.

"Ser Michel de Chevin had never looked back." (page 54-55)

It's also why I don't feel sympathy for Michel when Briala puts the elves first, when they are so powerless in Orlais. Putting an end to injustices like this is worth the effort.

[Iakus]

I disagree, in that joining them appears to require horrific acts that are never properly atoned for, given that none of them seemed to have done anything to stop the practice.

 

To quote Order of the Stick, "You may never balance the scales. You may never make it up to those who died on your watch. But giving up on fixing it is like killing them all over again."

 

I did mention his one-man quest to slay Imshael, right?

[Milan92]

That's exactly what they are.  Chevalier evenmeans horseman" in French. 

 

It's where the word "cavalier" comes from.

 

Learned something new today!

[Cobra's_back]

What would make you believe that those 'rights' might not be revoked later, after the Orlesians managed to overcome the problem with the Eluvians (not saying they would necessarily revoke them)?
And equal rights in Orlais wouldn't fix the elven problem in the rest of the Andrastian countries, though it'd definitely be the first step.   Thanks for the clarification.

 

You have an excellent point. This would be a first step. The other changes that have to occur is to change the minds of the people. Need a good Ruler that is willing to allow elves in their council. Have elves in their military. I would have taken a different approach from Celene. She wanted them in the Universities. I would want them to shine in several locations so that they become assets to all the community. Think of them as nighthawk archers. Make them part of the chevaliers. I bet that nighttime killing will stop. They can do it if they want to it is not impossible. The more the elves become an asset to the warrior class the more respect they are going to get.

[Shadow Fox]

That's exactly what they are.  Chevalier evenmeans horseman" in French. 

 

It's where the word "cavalier" comes from.

I mean in the sense they had a code that empathized being a champion of morality,honour and virtue but most real knights...weren't pleasant people infact most were little more then thugs.

[Iakus]

I like him too but I think he shouldn't be ashamed of what he truly is: an elf-blooded orphan who became the Empress's champion through efforts and merits. But the Orlesian society is not ready to accept him fully, neither was he.

Briala's intention was to improve the living of the CE, to allow them to be recognized and get more rights, for exemple the right to rise in society without being forced to hide your humble origine.

Yes, he shouldn't have to be ashamed of his origins.  Heck, Gaspard is so impressed with him he agrees to keep his secret.  It is Orlesian society that forces him to hide his background.

 

But still, Briala did destroy the life he spent years making for himself.

[TheJediSaint]

Learned something new today!

 

The word Knight means servant.

 

There's actually some real differences between English-style Knights and French-Style Chevaliers, but that's not really relevant to the thread.

 

With that bit of pedantry out of the way, I will say that I'm pretty sure there's not going to be a clean way to resolve Orlai's civil war.

[Heimdall]

Learned something new today!

Chivalry, too

[Milan92]

Awesome!